Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Porn - Why all the hate?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

I personally don't know the man to make a moral judgement, so I don't have any "evidence" for my statement that involves HH.

I will say, however, the life of a man that goes from one woman to another, or sleeps with multiple ones, based solely on "blondness" or "bustness" (i.e., on anything but quality of character) is acting mindlessly. "Playboys," as they are referred to, invariably are acting out their need to find esteem of themselves in the opinions of others. It seems as though HH lives a very public life, one where he flaunts his promiscuity proudly. I can only guess it's so that he can feel esteemed by other men and women who find that kind of life appealing.

Again, I'm only speculating, for I don't know exactly the kind of life he lives, the quality of character of the women he sleeps with, etc. But, on the other hand, if they are mindless and if he's choosing them based only on looks and if he moves from one woman to another without regard to whether the next woman is greater in ideal than the other, than the man is, as I said, acting out his need for esteem in the minds of others. And, as for his "happiness," any fool can seem happy, but actual happiness is not achieved by attaining an arbitrary ideal. I would speculate that deep down he's a very lonely old man, having never taken the effort to live a life worth of his own esteem, esteem based on an objective standard.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 204
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Ah, "pure pleasure" disconnected from the mind, as if such a thing exists.  Even something as simple as taking pleasure from the food you eat involves a value judgement.  Thanksgiving, for example, is one of the most enjoyable eating events because we celebrate the value of productivity, the pride we take in being able to provide this bounty.  The pleasure from the feast is directly tied to ideas. 

As I said, though, all pleasures involve a physical aspect to it in varying degrees.  Therefore, nothing stops men from trying to act solely on this "pure physical pleasure" you speak of.  Try and fail, as their life will no doubt be hell by disregarding value judgements and acting solely for "physical pleasure." 

Take, for example, the Big Mac junky.  He's attempting to ignore the value judgement in the act of eating and instead living for the sake of that "pure physical pleasure."  But what is actually happening?  In acting solely for the "physical pleasure," the junky is making a value judgement, the value judgement that his life's not worth the effort of taking action to sustain and further it; no, only that elusive "pure physical pleasure" is worth acting for. 

Sure, men try all the time to live is a disintegrated monster, but they fail, because man's identity is unchanging, and trying to act in contradiction to it will only destroy him. 

Sexual pleasure is at the top of a hierarchy of values ordered by degree of complexity.  The cognitive aspects of sexual pleasure are profound.  Living life, as with the Big Mac junky, trying to base your actions for the sake of that "pure physical pleasure," while disregarding the profound value judgement involved, is a terribly sad life to live.

Assuming that masturbation is not taking the place of a relationship (and even within the context of a relationship it doesn't need to), how is masturbating for the pleasure somehow indicative of poor values?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Masturbating for the sole purpose of the "pleasure" is an act that attempts to negate the existence of the inherently cognitive aspect of sexual pleasure. In engaging in sexual pleasure, any attempt to negate the cognitive aspect is an attempt to negate man's identity, which is, in essence, the consequence of a value judgement that says "my life as man is not worth living as it should be lived, I want to live solely for the sake of this pleasure and ignore the cognitive aspect of it." Masturbation solely for pleasure is an act that indicates an admition of the worthlessness of your life in your eyes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You're being absurd. Valuing pleasure does not necessitate commitment to a hedonistic lifestyle where one's sole purpose is short term pleasure seeking.

Lots of simple things feel nice, including just touching yourself in various ways. Not even sexually; just basic things like rubbing soft things on your skin, or gently stroking your leg and stomach. Look at the average baby and how much they enjoy simple physical pleasures, innocently touching themselves in various ways both 'sexually' and 'non-sexually' (as if theres a difference), before society teaches them to feel guilty about it.

You should play with yourself more, there's nothing to be ashamed of.

Edited by Hal
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've said my piece, at length, clearly, and yet you still don't understand me.

Pleasure is necessarily connected to a value judgement. Why do you value the soft touch of a nice bed? Why do you enjoy such simple things like the feel of silk boxers? Because you value your life, first. If you hadn't made that value judgement first, these "simple pleasures" would be meaningless. However, to value man's life first, means to value what he is, man qua man. His nature demands that sexual pleasure is necessarily cognitive in nature, thus attempting to negate that is in fact proclaiming that one never made that first value judgement, the value judgement that one values one's life as man, not as something else.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty, I'm putting forth a rational approach to masturbation and porn. Perhaps you are feeling guilty by reading my words? I wonder why?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Pleasure is necessarily connected to a value judgement.  Why do you value the soft touch of a nice bed?  Why do you enjoy such simple things like the feel of silk boxers?  Because you value your life, first.
Thats an odd way of putting it, but I dont disagree. You should bear in mind that animals tend to enjoy the same physical pleasures as humans though; I doubt theres much difference between tickling a baby and rubbing a cats stomach.

His nature demands that sexual pleasure is necessarily cognitive in nature, thus attempting to negate that is in fact proclaiming that one never made that first value judgement, that one values one's life as man, not as something else.
Could you explain a) _precisely_ what you mean by 'cognitive pleasure', B) why 'sexual' pleasure is more 'cognitive' than other physical pleasures, c) why rubbing your penis is inherantly different from rubbing your neck and chest, other than the social taboos which have been built around it in the West.

Perhaps you are feeling guilty by reading my words?  I wonder why?
Not especially, but I generally tend to associate dislike of the purely physical with repressed guilt caused by Christian upbringings. Obviously this doesnt apply in all cases. Edited by Hal
Link to post
Share on other sites

Your second point is a valid one. I can only validate it ostensively, however. Try pleasing yourself sexually while focusing solely on that pleasure, mentally record as best you can how that felt. Compare that to the feeling you have (or have had) during sexual intercourse with a partner you admire and respect. Or, try pleasing yourself sexually again, this time focusing on a fantasy with your ideal mate, the heroine you wish to be with one day. What is the difference in the experience, if any?

Oh, and I don't have a "dislike" for pleasure. I have a dislike for pleasure divorced from context, disintegrated from the identity of man. I enjoy sex and have it as frequently as possible. I understand that there are those that hate sexual pleasure for reasons that are rooted in hatred for man's greatness, for his capacity for joy. I'm not one of those.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Look at the average baby and how much they enjoy simple physical pleasures, innocently touching themselves in various ways both 'sexually' and 'non-sexually' (as if theres a difference), before society teaches them to feel guilty about it.

Err, speaking of "being absurd," what kind of baby touches him/herself sexually? Where did this even come from?

Could you explain [...] why rubbing your penis is inherantly different from rubbing your neck and chest, other than the social taboos which have been built around it in the West.

In other words, there really isn't any difference between hiring a professional to massage you and hiring a prostitute to screw you. Do you really believe this?

Link to post
Share on other sites

This has descended into rationalism. The pleasure obtained through masturbation is the goal. The implied value is "I deserve pleasure". There is no negating of anything. Any fantasy employed while masturbating serves to enhance the pleasure; the fantasy is not the goal, but the tool.

I am assuming you do occasionally masturbate- do you do it for some other reason than pleasure? For world peace? For the advancement of Objectivism?

It is you who are dropping context- masturbation is not sex between two people and all that a romatic relationship involves- it is a solo activity that poses no risk of short term or long term damage physically or mentally, does not involve blanking out of reality, the denial of one's nature or any such nonsense.

Link to post
Share on other sites

But your mistake is claiming that "the physical pleasure" is the goal. The pleasure consists of much more than just the feeling in your genitals. Masturbation is a form of sexual pleasure, sexual pleasure is of a specific nature, a nature consisting of congitive aspects. Sure, sexual pleasure is the goal, but what does "sexual pleasure" consist of?

Link to post
Share on other sites
But your mistake is claiming that "the physical pleasure" is the goal.  The pleasure consists of much more than just the feeling in your gentiles.

Technically an orgasm is felt in many more places than the genitals, but that is neither here nor there.

If is not physicial pleasure than what is it? What is the goal of masturbation? You seem to be beating around that bush (ha ha ha).

Link to post
Share on other sites
Masturbation is a form of sexual pleasure, sexual pleasure is of a specific nature, a nature consisting of congitive aspects.  Sure, sexual pleasure is the goal, but what does "sexual pleasure" consist of?

The onus of proof is on you my friend. You keep asserting it but don't provide details.

Also, is all sexual pleasure the same? A solo act is quite different than a team effort.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Any fantasy employed while masturbating serves to enhance the pleasure; the fantasy is not the goal, but the tool.

Felipe is making a pretty uncontroversial point: When you masturbate, you would be immoral to fantasize about sex with mindless whores, dogs, trees, children, etc. The object of your attention should be your moral ideal - a strong, independent, rational man or woman.

I am assuming you do occasionally masturbate- do you do it for some other reason than pleasure? For world peace? For the advancement of Objectivism?

I think this is a semantic misunderstanding: You seem to be using pleasure more broadly than Felipe is. Yes, masturbation should be done for pleasure, but your thoughts should not dichotomize the body from the mind; i.e., it should be pleasurable both physically and emotionally.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So for masturbation to be moral one must fantasize about a complete and fully realized human with their own values and so on?

What about just envisioning a nice body, or hell, even nice body parts? As long as one does not drop the context of fantasy, how is this immoral? Specifically chosing to fantasize about something that is debased is a different matter and I can't (don't want to) argue that point.

As for emotional pleasure- I think you need to explain a bit more. Certainly there is emotional pleasure from sex with a partner- a feeling of intimacy, togetherness, pride, etc. But masturbation?

Link to post
Share on other sites
What about just invisioning a nice body, or hell, even nice body parts?  As long as one does not drop the context of fantasy, how is this immoral?

I have already explained why it is: it dichotomizes the body from the mind. If you believe that sex is nothing more than physical, your philosophy is something other than Objectivism. I suggest reading Dr. Peikoff's discussion on sex in chapter nine ("Happiness") in OPAR.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I have already explained why it is: it dichotomizes the body from the mind. If you believe that sex is nothing more than physical, your philosophy is something other than Objectivism. I suggest reading Dr. Peikoff's discussion on sex in chapter nine ("Happiness") in OPAR.

Nonsense. Fantasy is not reality. If, in a relationship one attempted to live according to such a dichotomy, then the point is obvious. We are not talking about a romantic relationship. We are talking about masturbation- a completely solitary activity (usually) and fantasy, something most of us don't confuse with reality.

(and I am very familar with OPAR, thanks and with Dr. Peikoff's lecture on Love, SEx and Romance)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Nonsense.  Fantasy is not reality.  If, in a relationship one attempted to live according to such a dichotomy, then the point is obvious.  We are not talking about a romantic relationship.  We are talking about masturbation- a completely solitary activity (usually) and fantasy, something most of us don't confuse with reality.

Do your values change between the two? Why is it important to make love with a rational person in reality but penetrating a lobster is okay in your mind?

Link to post
Share on other sites
LOL Oakes!  I think our friend here could have sex with the trunk of an elephant, and if it provided the requisite "physical pleasure," then this would consist of perfectly fine sexual pleasure.

At least, he could fantasize about it. That's the slippery slope I prefer not to tumble down on.

EDIT: Fixed grammatical error.

Edited by Oakes
Link to post
Share on other sites

More rationalists posing as Objectivists.

Certainly fantasy is a reflection of values. You'll note I did not say anything goes as I specificially excluded debased acts. But your assertion would mean that a fantasy figure used for masturbation would have to be fully consistant with reality- that is, it would would have to be a fully realized person with values, goals, history etc. It would not be moral to fantasize about a beautiful woman, oh no- she would have to be an objectivist as well. How ridiculous. If you are thinking about Objectivism while rubbing one out you have serious issues...

Fantasy is a selective recreation of reality in the mind. The key word being selective. You fantasies will reflect your values- but it needn't reflect all of them simultaneously.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Fancy that, being accused of rationalism because I refuse to sexually please myself with a fantasy of anything less than the heroine I deserve. You just revealed more about yourself than I think you would've wished to. It's been a pleasure. Have fun selectively recreating a fantasy that is empty of values and ideas, one where "a beautiful woman" is sufficient. I'm done with this thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Fancy that, being accused of rationalism because I refuse to sexually please myself with a fantasy of anything less than the heroine I deserve.  You just revealed more about yourself than I think you would've wished to.  It's been a pleasure.  Have fun selectively recreating a fantasy that is empty of values and ideas, one where "a beautiful woman" is sufficient.  I'm done with this thread.

I accused you of rationalism because you are clearly attempting to deduce the values that sex/fantasy/masterbation provide from rather sparce commentary from Ms. Rand and Dr. Peikoff rather than inducing them from your own sensory experience and introspecting about your own values.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...