Self-Esteem

[Atlas51184]

read this

This article is about a study claiming that school bullies tend to have more self-esteem than the rest of a school population. After reading it I decided that these children really have no genuine self-esteem because they are psychologically dependent on the opinions of their peers. Any thoughts on this or the topic of self-esteem in general?

[Evangelical Capitalist]

Contrary to popular opinion, school bullies do not suffer from low self-esteem and are often popular and considered "cool" by their classmates, a new study has found.

This is all I have to read.

For all the talk about "self-esteem," I am utterly convinced that few people even understand what self-esteem is. The remainder of this article is clearly going to proceed on the premise that popularity and self-esteem are the same thing. Once these are understood to be separate, often unrelated concepts, this sentence becomes a rather ridiculous non-sequitur.

You're absolutely right about popularity being a second-hand form of self-esteem. Generally, people have forgotten that self-esteem must necessarily proceed from the self. This is one of the most destructive misconceptions in our culture. We're taught that self-esteem is not something that must be earned from one's self, but that it is a causeless gift from others. Thus, we must return that with indisriminate "brother-love," which leads, in turn, to forced "volunteerism" and self-sacrifice. We're taught that self-esteem derives from an amalgam of the various groups that we belong to (race, gender, sexual-orientation, etc.) and thus any perceived attack on those groups is to be taken personally. This leads to censorship of anything that might be perceived as an attack on certain "disadvantaged" groups.

An even more pathological situation is the derivation of "self-esteem" from celebrity, which is not necessarily the same thing as popularity. If you want a concrete example of the sort of destructive behavior this leads to, just watch reality TV for a while. The attitude that a person's worth is directly proportional to the number of people that know their name, regardless of whether that notoriety is for a positive reason or not, is what drives much of the insanity that goes on there. Those who achieve notoriety for negative reasons consider themselves "individualists" for flauting public opinion, despite the fact that what they seek is public recognition, if not public approval. This is precisely the motivation of the killers at Columbine High School, the quest for notoriety without approval. Bullying writ large.

[bbrown]

This article is about a study claiming that school bullies tend to have more self-esteem than the rest of a school population. After reading it I decided that these children really have no genuine self-esteem because they are psychologically  dependent on the opinions of their peers. Any thoughts on this or the topic of self-esteem in general?

Read a smattering of popular self-help books (especially Dr. Phil) and you'll see that they don't really grok self-esteem. Most people have a conception of self-esteem as feeling good about what you do. Bullies feel good about themselves because they seize on the emotional rush that accompanies power over others, even though it is ultimately empty, temporary, and completely decimated once they encounter someone more powerful or unconvinced of their superiority.

The only people that I've found that understand self-esteem have been cognitive psychologists of various persuasions and Objectivists, though they don't necessarily possess the clinical understanding of the latter.

[softwareNerd]

This old thread made me look into how pop-psychology defines self-esteem. (A Google search brings up various links, but this one has a pretty representative description.) The pop view is not that as crude as equating popularity with self-esteem. Rather, the way it explained is as follows:

1. Self-esteem is how much you esteem your self (as opposed to how others esteem you).
   
2. Other people have a role to play in helping you be competent at various things, at noticing and pointing out your strengths, and simply telling you how good you are
   

It is the second point below where ideas diverge regarding the role of other people and their primacy.

[DPW]

Conventional studies don't distinguish between genuine self-esteem and pseudo self-esteem. This is an example of that.

[JMeganSnow]

The people I know that have the most genuine self-esteem know that they have failures, committed errors, and otherwise acted like idiots at various times and it never bothers them. I think the most accurate signs of self-esteem are a.) you can laugh at your failures, and even tell other people about them, and b.) you feel no need whatsoever to depreciate or laugh at your success.

I rarely meet people (in person) who can manage both parts of that. If you are serious and proud about your success but you cannot tolerate it when you make a mistake, you have only partial self-esteem, and vice versa.

I've still got a ways to go; I'm learning (slowly) to take criticism and credit.

[Groovenstein]

you can laugh at your failures, and even tell other people about them

Like that time when I wasn't paying attention to how much I was drinking in such a short time and I ended up so gone I had my friend at whose place I was staying drive me to the ER? That sucked. The thing that really sucked about that was that it was at a time, like now, when I wasn't out to get hammered. I just wasn't paying attention, and I made the mistake of getting drinks that tasted good. Sure, man, grab me another one and let's play another game of Golden Tee! Oops.

Edited December 31, 2005 by Groovenstein

[JMeganSnow]

Hey, as long as you've fixed the underlying problem that caused it, you're entitled to laugh at it and you probably will, as well.

I think part of the reason I have trouble getting past my failures is that I haven't yet fully corrected the underlying problems that cause them; it's not funny when you know you might do it again.

[softwareNerd]

In its most essential form, self-esteem is a self-awareness of one's rationality and (consequently) of one's productiveness. It's crucial. A person without self-esteem is a person who has no motivation to focus his mind and figure out how to deal with the world rationally.

Consider a related example. Every teacher knows how important motivation is to a student: why? Why is the student able to grasp something when he thinks it is useful, when he thinks it will make sense? It is because a student approaching a subject with motivation will focus his mind on the subject. Since man has to make an effort to think, so he must have the motivation to do so. That is the practical value of self-esteem. It is the opposite of shrugging and saying: "what's the point".

Man is not born with self-esteem in the same sense as a man is not born rational or productive. As a man is able to reason, he also simultaneous concludes that his reason is efficacious. As he builds up his mind and his wealth, he also builds up his soul. And, this building of one's soul goes on and on.

How does one help a child build self-esteem? By helping the child learn to deal with the world rationally, and productively; in other words, by helping the child achieve; in other words, by helping child be estimable. Any attempt to tell the child that he is estimable just the way he is, without any need to change is futile because it rings hollow.

I think better parents and teachers have a "common-sense" approach where they realize that a child who is struggling in some area should set himself small, achievable goals, rather than feeling bad that he's not the best in that area of life. Apart from helping the child get better at things he is not good at, they may help the child excel at something that he is good at. However, if their understanding does not go deep, they may allow in some elements of the attitude that: "you're okay just the way you are and you are worthy of pride just for being"!

[Groovenstein]

Hey, as long as you've fixed the underlying problem that caused it, you're entitled to laugh at it and you probably will, as well.

Me? Laugh? Never!

I think part of the reason I have trouble getting past my failures is that I haven't yet fully corrected the underlying problems that cause them; it's not funny when you know you might do it again.

You raise a good point here. I used to think that anything and everything was ripe for comedy. Now, not so much. Interestingly, my roommate and I (who have many comedic "bits") have recently begun and are continuing to develop a bit whereby we mock people who mock achievement. As it stands, it pretty much boils down to taking the role of an idiot, using a silly voice, and uttering such absurdities as, "You work really hard at your job, you bastard." How do you not laugh at someone who would say that seriously?

Best wishes on solving those issues, JMS. I'm confident you'll be just fine.

[gags]

How does one help a child build self-esteem? By helping the child learn to deal with the world rationally, and productively; in other words, by helping the child achieve; in other words, by helping child be estimable. Any attempt to tell the child that he is estimable just the way he is, without any need to change is futile because it rings hollow.

This is one of the reasons why cultures that specifically de-value achievement are so damaging. When academic and economic success (through hard work) are frowned upon, the inevitable result is large numbers of individuals with low self-esteem. Teaching children their multiplication tables is far more beneficial to self-esteem than drilling into their heads that they are the descendents of kings and queens.

[Thoughts]

This is one of the reasons why cultures that specifically de-value achievement are so damaging. When academic and economic success (through hard work) are frowned upon, the inevitable result is large numbers of individuals with low self-esteem. Teaching children their multiplication tables is far more beneficial to self-esteem than drilling into their heads that they are the descendents of kings and queens.

I would like to put some input into this, even though it is a subject that has more than likely moved on.

I have had issues with self-esteem my entire life. I did not know what self-esteem actually was throughout my childhood. Therefore, I assumed (with the typical ignorant American opinion of self-esteem) that since I wasn't well liked, I wasn't worth anything. I agree that the de-valuation of achievement is damaging, but it cannot be blamed completely on the society around the person. In my case, the derision of my high academic achievements, as well as the harping upon my deficiencies, were the catalysts that only initiated the cycle in young childhood. It then becomes a cycle that is powered by one's own grossly disproportionate perceptions as to what is important and what is not. The individual begins to believe that academic achievement is not worth anything, and that by lowering themselves to the level of those who have decided to deride them or discourage them, they feel better about themselves.

In short, as I must leave for now, I agree with the qouted post from my personal expierience. I'll expound further later.

~Chris