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Hillary Blames Putin's Personal Beef

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1 hour ago, Eiuol said:

There isn't a reason to not trust the CIA any more or less than any other government agency.

It's weird how they refused to report their findings to Congress, didn't show up to an oversight hearing, and instead leaked the "overwhelming evidence" language to newspapers. They are being accused by Republican members of the House Intelligence Committee of attempting to spread disinformation. 

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King, referring to recent press reports, said “it’s almost as if people in the intelligence community are carrying out a disinformation campaign against the president-elect of the United States."

I suppose the CIA might get around to briefing Congress at some point, but probably not until after the electoral college vote.

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22 minutes ago, MisterSwig said:

It's weird how they refused to report their findings to Congress, didn't show up to an oversight hearing, and instead leaked the "overwhelming evidence" language to newspapers.

No, it's more that media reports are reporting as if possibility is fact - possibly getting in a fuss about Trump then failing to think rationally about world affairs. That is, it is worth intelligence giving some info, but that doesn't mean they are ready to present things to Congress. Trump is a foreign policy nightmare, so caution is smart here. Intelligence takes long term strategy, I don't think it's rational to presume the CIA et al. are attempting to spread misinformation. 

EDIT: I am aware of the Guccifer stuff Nicky mentioned, and it's a sure thing Russians (i.e. people who live in Russia and speak Russian) did it, I just don't know the way we can trace that to Putin himself or a grand plan by Putin's people.

Edited by Eiuol
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10 hours ago, Plasmatic said:

Edit: Also, do you consider the raw data from Wikileaks misinformation?

Just to wrap up my previous post with a clever catch phrase I read a while ago (in a video game review of all places: http://www.pcgamesn.com/watchdogs-2/watch-dogs-2-post-truth-trump-brexit), Vladislav Surkov, Putin's propaganda chief, is trying to bring about a "post-truth society".

That is the goal of Russia's hacking and propaganda efforts, because that is the only way Putin's regime can survive. If someone is able to communicate even just a small part of the truth about Vladimir Putin to the Russian people, he and his cohorts are dead. Their survival depends on stopping that from happening.

Edited by Nicky
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40 minutes ago, Nicky said:

That is the goal of Russia's hacking and propaganda efforts, because that is the only way Putin's regime can survive. If someone is able to communicate even just a small part of the truth about Vladimir Putin to the Russian people, he and his cohorts are dead. Their survival depends on stopping that from happening.

You're kidding, right? Russians gobble up anti-Putin western media for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They are well aware of what we think about him. And they even have their own opposition liberal media. You think Putin is so fragile that he couldn't survive the smallest exposure? That's completely absurd.

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9 hours ago, MisterSwig said:

Russians gobble up anti-Putin western media for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They are well aware of what we think about him. And they even have their own opposition liberal media.

You make it sound as if the Russian people are more objectively oriented than their U.S. counterparts who "are trending toward an oppressive, violent, socialist dictatorship," as "perfectly reflected in the five o'clock news."

 

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6 hours ago, dream_weaver said:

You make it sound as if the Russian people are more objectively oriented than their U.S. counterparts

How's that? Being aware of the opposing view doesn't mean you're objectively oriented. They know what we think. And they largely disagree.

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16 hours ago, Nicky said:

Vladislav Surkov, Putin's propaganda chief, is trying to bring about a "post-truth society".

I had never heard of this, so I read an actual article on it. "Post-truth" is a liberal academic term from the 90s that has more recently seen popular usage in attempts to combat deceptive Rightist propaganda. Originally the concept arose out of the world of postmodern philosophy, according to the Newsweek article.

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...the groundbreaking work on “post-truth” was performed by academics, with further contributions from an extensive roster of middle-class professionals. Left-leaning, self-confessed liberals, they sought freedom from state-sponsored truth; instead they built a new form of cognitive confinement—“post-truth”.

The article pulls a definition from Oxford Dictionary:

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It defines “post-truth” as “relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief.”

I have some personal experience with this, as I took a journalism class at my university in the mid-90s. I don't recall the professor using the term post-truth, but the focus of the course was on attacking the idea of objectivity in the news and revealing the inherent biases of particular articles.

It seems like what they were trying to force-feed me back then has become par for the course now. And now the liberals are raging against their own creation. 

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4 minutes ago, MisterSwig said:

I had never heard of this, so I read an actual article on it. "Post-truth" is a liberal academic term from the 90s that has more recently seen popular usage in attempts to combat deceptive Rightist propaganda. Originally the concept arose out of the world of postmodern philosophy, according to the Newsweek article.

The article pulls a definition from Oxford Dictionary:

I have some personal experience with this, as I took a journalism class at my university in the mid-90s. I don't recall the professor using the term post-truth, but the focus of the course was on attacking the idea of objectivity in the news and revealing the inherent biases of particular articles.

It seems like what they were trying to force-feed me back then has become par for the course now. And now the liberals are raging against their own creation. 

So you googled a word I used, and found a Liberal who used it too, did you? And now you think that's a connection?

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2 hours ago, Nicky said:

Should I now start citing crazy people who used the expression "personal beef" at some point, and implying that you have something to do with them?

Sure, you can start with Hillary's use of the expression and the fact that I voted for her.

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2 hours ago, Nicky said:

What does it have to do with the conversation we're having.

You brought it up as a reason to think it is part of Putin's game plan to maintain authority, in a thread discussing whether Putin did/would manipulate the election. If it's crazy idea, I don't know why you linked us that article then, or what's wrong with what Swig said. He didn't do anything except tell more about a term he didn't know about until you mentioned it.

 

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1 hour ago, dream_weaver said:

Isn't truth (even a small part of the truth) based on objectivity, rather than disagreement?

It's based on reality. We can communicate objective truth to the opposition, but that doesn't mean they will accept it as a fact of reality or evaluate that fact the same way we do.

What small truth about Putin will cripple him if only we could communicate it to the Russians? That he's an oppressive dictator? They already know that that's what we think.

The problem isn't that we can't communicate our view to them. The problem is that they don't agree with us. They have a completely different moral and political philosophy. They want a dictator who'll crack down on whatever they consider to be immoral and keep them secure from terrorism. They want a strong nationalist leader.

Edited by MisterSwig
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DW, I think the point is that it's not as if the Russian people are unable to find facts, it's not North Korea over there. As far as I understand about post-Soviet Russian culture anyway, the notion of truth-as-objective matters little and they are untrusting of almost everything and everyone. 

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43 minutes ago, dream_weaver said:

What small truth crippled statism and implemented individualism in small rag-tag group of English colonies, even without a full proper philosophic underpinning?

I don't think the Age of Enlightenment can be considered a small truth. Frankly, I'm not getting your point. Are you saying that cultural revolutions are caused by exposure to certain small truths or facts?

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On 12/18/2016 at 1:43 PM, MisterSwig said:

Perhaps this deserves its own thread. But is Trump's foreign policy so far more nightmarish than Obama and Clinton's?

I think both Clinton and Trump would be nightmares for foreign policy, both worse than Obama. If anything, Obama kept things static in the US, or rather, a continuation of neocon foreign policy despite being a liberal anyway. There are bad aspects to be sure, but it's not a nightmare to handle or manage. Clinton shows a cavalier attitude towards confidentiality such that she doesn't get the -weight- of that information, poor at handling her image as a leader, and both of those are huge problems. Trump shows a cavalier attitude towards using evidence to make decisions, uses intuition untempered by reason or logical argument, and is easily manipulated.

This hacking thing is just an example of how frail the US is. Even if Putin didn't do a damn thing and merely neglected to act on stopping independent hackers, the thought that he -could- have and that it's realistic shows that Russia is a power player. With Obama gone, it wouldn't have mattered who became president - the next one was always substantially worse.

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