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I feel like I'm prejudiced against obese people

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Since I was a kid I never really liked overweight people. As a kid I used to read my "Beano" comics which is from the UK and basically short stories about mischefis children. Anyway there was this one character called fatty and basically his role was the fat guy. He would eat a mountain of food and never excerise. In most other comics and cartoons, fat characters were similarly protrayed the same way.

To me obesity was always seen as a symbol of greed and laziness, even a symbol of opression like the fat emporer who has more than enough food while his nation's people are starving.

As a kid I've also been raised to feel grateful for what you have, I was always reminded about the state of third and second world nations and felt like I should stop making complaints and make the most of myself. This is also one of the main reasons why I dislike overweight people.

When I was 16 I was at a halloween party and my friend came up to me and told me that this girl wanted to go out with me. At the time I honestly thought he joking because she was really fat and ugly and therefore to me really unattractive.

I rejected but then he suggested that I should go out with her anyway because at that time I had never gone with a girl. I still rejected and called her a rude name behind her back.

For afew months my other friends at the time kept bugging me to go out with her. Then I eventually I did and I didn't enjoy it at all, frankly it grossed me out. I also tought that maybe if I got to know her, maybe she actually had a good personality and was really cool to hang out with. Sadly no, as it turned out she was really annoying. So I didn't go out with her again.

I get alot of abuse at time, people saying I'm shollow,"oh you're dumping her cus she's fat"."would you like her if she wasn't fat". I didn't see what the big deal was, everyone tought it was ok for her to look at me and say she's really attracted to me and really want to go out with me dispite the fact that she knows absolutly nothing about me, but it's not ok for me to look at her and say she's unattractive I don't want to go out with her? I used to ask the same people "yeah well why shouldn't she lose the weight then?" they couldn't give an answer "why do you want her to stay fat then?". I couldn't see a reason why she shouldn't lose the weight so I couldn't see a reason why I should accept her for it. I didn't feel sympathetic for her becuase I felt like it was her own fault she was fat so why should I be the one who put up with it.

I know wemen are pressurised into looking attractive, but I think men can be pressured too. To be honest I don't see anything wrong with the media, I actually think its a good thing. Say for example the old diet coke ad with the 11.30 break where all the office wemen are looking the muscular window cleaner. I think ads like that are really good because it give the message that the man with six pack who's really fit, really strong and healthy is the guy all the ladies want. It tells young boys "hey lets go out and get really fit like that guy so that we can score some chicks", is that really a bad thing.

I think the only people who do critise the media are really those who are unattractive and who therefore lose out by it. Most of them are hypocrites anyway, They make everyone feel bad for not going out with them because they're unattractive yet thet themselves only want to go out with people they find attractive.

Most importantly though, obesity is really bad for your health and likely to cause premature death and other major health problems.

I was introduced to objectivism and Ayn Rand by the brother about a year and a half ago, since then I've explored her philosophy and positives of capitialism, and I feel like people should be free to live their own lives the way they wish and people should take reponsibilties for their know actions. Like if someone smokes, smoking can be enjoyable but it's their fault and problem if they get cancer, not the tabacco company.

Likewise if a person chooses to eat an unproper diet and not excercie enough, it's their problem if they're unfit and unattractive.

I do try to tolerat overweight people and try not to judge them for apperance to much, but I immediatly see a person who is greedy and lazy. Is this expectable are is it another form of dicrimmination like racism?

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It's not like racism since overeating is a choice. Genetics make that choice harder or easier for some people, but it remains a choice.

One of my best friends is overweight, and rather unhealily at that. He knows it's a vice and he knows I think so. He knows he has no excuse and makes no bones about it. I hope that someday he will actualize his values and realize that the selfish thing to do is to lose weight. Until then, I don't pester him about it.

That said, a LOT of overweight people are NOT like my friend. They constantly spew out nonsense like "fat people can't help it" or "fat is beautiful." I think these people are deserving of much contempt and I would not associate with such a person.

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I have a fat aunt and the same can be said about her. Hell, most of my immediate family is overweight besdies myself and my mother. Actually if I were to follow the BMI I too am considered overwietht being 6'5" and weighing in roughly under 250. The funny thing is since high school i have maintained a constant weight always being right around 250. Though I am taking measures to lose the fat I have on my body and tone it into muscle. On a side note I mentioned the BMI and I don't think this is a proper way of determining if somebody is considered obese or not. Mainly because it ignores a person's bone structure. Case in point my own bone structure I have broad shoulders and nothing i can do will change this fact. I can't very well break my bones to slim down now can I, the same can be said about my brother, though he is overweight and can stand to lose a few pounds.

edited: To add the sidenote and added is

Edited by Richard Roark
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I know I'm prejudiced against fat people, but why should that be considered a bad thing? Since when is it wrong to judge people based on their vices?

What do you mean by "prejudiced"?

The usual meaning that I have heard is to pre-judge X before finding out the facts about X. My Random House Unabridged Dictionary lists the primary usage of "prejudice" as: "1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason."

In that meaning, prejudice is immoral. I have seen many instances of prejudice among conservatives and leftists -- prejudice against blacks, soldiers, Jews, businessmen, homosexuals, and chess players.

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What do you mean by "prejudiced"?

The usual meaning that I have heard is to pre-judge X before finding out the facts about X. My Random House Unabridged Dictionary lists the primary usage of "prejudice" as: "1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason."

In that meaning, prejudice is immoral. I have seen many instances of prejudice among conservatives and leftists -- prejudice against blacks, soldiers, Jews, businessmen, homosexuals, and chess players.

I would tweak the Random House to: an unfavorable opinion formed beforehand with knowledge, thought, or reason. The original definition looks more like a definition for racism no prejudice. And in this case my knowledge would be that in general fat people must have explicitly unhealthy habits. A vice. I'm prejudging their character based on that knowledge and that is not immoral. Of course, in the future as I learn more about this person, I would let this new context now be part of how I judge them. But, I would never forget my initial judgement based on a metaphysical fact directly percieved by my eyes (their fatness). And they would have to prove to me why I should (at least partially) overlook this character flaw on their part.

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Why is prejudice, as such, immoral? Everyone has prejudice, in the sense that everyone has preliminary conception about other people, before meeting them.

Prejudice would be immoral if it was retained after getting to know the person and choosing not to replace assumed information with real information.

Edited by Free Capitalist
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Here's my take on fat people. One has to ask why? Excluding those who have some illness that makes them obese, some people are fat by choice but in a reasonable fashion. To have folds falling down, and bulges is not pretty at all, and those who choose it have something wrong with them.

There are some fat people who have very pretty faces and one has to think that if they took a couple of months of dedicationt then they will be godly. Like there's this guy I sometimes work with who is overweight but has a very pretty face and I could easily picture him fit. He actually used to be fit because he played basketball. He explained what happened and it is totally understandeable. He has a cool character and a lovely face.

Or a guy I was in love with once, used to put on weight in the winter but come summer he would transform into a god. I regrettably have a "beer belly" which I am ashamed of but I've been fit before and I know that all it takes is a month or two of dedication. But I'm smart and I have a cool character and am pretty. One thing I know is that being fit means having a fitter mind and a less stress filled life. Also, if I met someone that I really wanted who loved my character then I would make an great effort to be fit again.

One has to look at the context.

I am tempted to say that I have a prejudice for beauty; my lover will have to be beautiful. But I remember meeting this guy once who was merely homely, he wasn't fat, but I have this thing for pretty faces; the thing is I found this guy so sexy. I remember loving his ankles and there was something about his face that was so appealing.

When it come to obesity, there is a selfish and life related reason to be fit.

Americo.

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I have been fat for as long as I can remember myself. The reasons for that were both a built-in physical inheritance to overweight, and a shortage of energy (diagnosed by doctors as such) that reduced my will for any sport activity. In the last year and a half, for the first time in my life, I started a diet seriously. I went from 135 kilograms (sorry, I don’t know the American meazoring system) to 108, and still at it.

Now, the reasons for my decision to start it was my understanding of the difficulty it will cause medically in the long run, and also the back pains I started having which were partly the due to my weight. My reasons were certainly not what other people think of me because of my weight. I am getting the impression somehow that the reason some of the people here think fat people should lose weight is exactly because of that reason- their attractiveness in other people’s eyes. Am I misunderstanding?

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Since I was a kid I never really liked overweight people. As a kid I used to read my "Beano" comics which is from the UK and basically short stories about mischefis children. Anyway there was this one character called fatty and basically his role was the fat guy. He would eat a mountain of food and never excerise. In most other comics and cartoons, fat characters were similarly protrayed the same way.

To me obesity was always seen as a symbol of greed and laziness, even a symbol of opression like the fat emporer who has more than enough food while his nation's people are starving.

As a kid I've also been raised to feel grateful for what you have, I was always reminded about the state of third and second world nations and felt like I should stop making complaints and make the most of myself. This is also one of the main reasons why I dislike overweight people.

When I was 16 I was at a halloween party and my friend came up to me and told me that this girl wanted to go out with me. At the time I honestly thought he joking because she was really fat and ugly and therefore to me really unattractive.

I rejected but then he suggested that I should go out with her anyway because at that time I had never gone with a girl. I still rejected and called her a rude name behind her back.

For afew months my other friends at the time kept bugging me to go out with her. Then I eventually I did and I didn't enjoy it at all, frankly it grossed me out. I also tought that maybe if I got to know her, maybe she actually had a good personality and was really cool to hang out with. Sadly no, as it turned out she was really annoying. So I didn't go out with her again.

I get alot of abuse at time, people saying I'm shollow,"oh you're dumping her cus she's fat"."would you like her if she wasn't fat". I didn't see what the big deal was, everyone tought it was ok for her to look at me and say she's really attracted to me and really want to go out with me dispite the fact that she knows absolutly nothing about me, but it's not ok for me to look at her and say she's unattractive I don't want to go out with her? I used to ask the same people "yeah well why shouldn't she lose the weight then?" they couldn't give an answer "why do you want her to stay fat then?". I couldn't see a reason why she shouldn't lose the weight so I couldn't see a reason why I should accept her for it. I didn't feel sympathetic for her becuase I felt like it was her own fault she was fat so why should I be the one who put up with it.

I know wemen are pressurised into looking attractive, but I think men can be pressured too. To be honest I don't see anything wrong with the media, I actually think its a good thing. Say for example the old diet coke ad with the 11.30 break where all the office wemen are looking the muscular window cleaner. I think ads like that are really good because it give the message that the man with six pack who's really fit, really strong and healthy is the guy all the ladies want. It tells young boys "hey lets go out and get really fit like that guy so that we can score some chicks", is that really a bad thing.

I think the only people who do critise the media are really those who are unattractive and who therefore lose out by it. Most of them are hypocrites anyway, They make everyone feel bad for not going out with them because they're unattractive yet thet themselves only want to go out with people they find attractive.

Most importantly though, obesity is really bad for your health and likely to cause premature death and other major health problems.

I was introduced to objectivism and Ayn Rand by the brother about a year and a half ago, since then I've explored her philosophy and positives of capitialism, and I feel like people should be free to live their own lives the way they wish and people should take reponsibilties for their know actions. Like if someone smokes, smoking can be enjoyable but it's their fault and problem if they get cancer, not the tabacco company.

Likewise if a person chooses to eat an unproper diet and not excercie enough, it's their problem if they're unfit and unattractive.

I do try to tolerat overweight people and try not to judge them for apperance to much, but I immediatly see a person who is greedy and lazy. Is this expectable are is it another form of dicrimmination like racism?

There are no fat people,.. there are fat individuals.

If those individuals prove to be worthy of being discriminated against associating

with (as you would discriminate against violent people), then certainly you can.

If you discriminate against an individual who could be of value to know and

associate with, then you're irrationally rejecting something of value to you.

Rejecting value is morally wrong.

You are being morally wrong.

When you have a prejudice like this, just as with racism, you are bowing to the

collectivist mentality of "because some are that way all are that way." An obvious

irrationality.

So,.. will you continue to be irrational, or not? And if so, why?

-Iakeo

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The point, I think, is that being overweight is for most people an irrationality. This COULD be an indicator that said fat person is immoral in other ways, or it COULD be an isolated immorality in an otherwise good person. I don't think it's enough data to dismiss a person on this basis alone. For the purpose of romantic involvement, however, I don't see any problem at all with this being a deal breaker. How dare those people try to tell you what to do!

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The point, I think, is that being overweight is for most people an irrationality. This COULD be an indicator that said fat person is immoral in other ways, or it COULD be an isolated immorality in an otherwise good person. I don't think it's enough data to dismiss a person on this basis alone. For the purpose of romantic involvement, however, I don't see any problem at all with this being a deal breaker. How dare those people try to tell you what to do!

Wow. Someone actually tried to impose their sense of aesthetics on someone else?

That's just plain silly and unethical on the face of it.

As someone said around here somewhere: Make your own choices, please..!

-Iakeo

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Sexual attraction isn't a matter of aesthetics

Sure it is. ;)

Actually any "attraction" is a matter of aesthetics.

It's a question of value concerning beauty.

How are you defining "aesthetics"? I'm sure you're perfectly rational in what you

meant, but what you said isn't rational to me given the definitions I'm using, so

apparently our definitions, not our rationality, are clashing a bit.

And by the way,.. I find your snappy concise comeback (one quick sentence) very

sexy..! Not in a sexual way, mind you,..

Turseness turns me on. Hae ae ae... :)

-Iakeo

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Sure it is. :(

Actually any "attraction" is a matter of aesthetics.

It's a question of value concerning beauty.

How are you defining "aesthetics"? I'm sure you're perfectly rational in what you

meant, but what you said isn't rational to me given the definitions I'm using, so

apparently our definitions, not our rationality, are clashing a bit.

And by the way,.. I find your snappy concise comeback (one quick sentence) very

sexy..! Not in a sexual way, mind you,..

Turseness turns me on. Hae ae ae... :)

-Iakeo

I agree. Do you really think Dagny would've slept with Hank if he was butt ugly?

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I agree. Do you really think Dagny would've slept with Hank if he was butt ugly?

Yes, she would have! His beauty represents Ayn Rand's view of a benevolent universe, not necessarily Dagny's. Dagny would have surely slept with Howard Roark ... an ugly man with the same soul is not that far a step. Dagny wasn't "lusting" for beauty in her tortuous struggle to Atlantis but a man like her. I just finished reading The Man Who Laughs, so I think Gwynplaine's soul was quite sexy in many ways. Even in his last act, though, I would have acted differently.

But existentially, it is possible for someone to be personally "prejudiced" to beauty, let's say, if they think about beauty much in an intellectual manner.

Americo.

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The question was not whether Dagny would sleep with Rearden if the world thought he was ugly, but whether she would if she thought so. And I think it's pretty obvious that she wouldn't; their relationship was not platonic, and the physical appearence of both of them was an important factor in their relationship. Not an exclusive factor by any means, but an important one. Just think of how many times, and in how many ways, AR described their physical attractiveness. The point is not that the world necessarily saw them as models, nor were they, but they were extremely physically appealing to each other, which is what matters.

Edited by Free Capitalist
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For me using the word beautiful in application to a woman doesn't happen very often. Unfortunately, I don't think that there are many true women left in the world. An example, might be the best way of explaining what I mean. I see a girl, like i said woman is a term I use sparingly actually, and she is good loooking, hot even, yet beyond wanting to sleep with her for these reasons, I am not attracted to her and find her actually quite repulsive when I think about it. In many ways this is also one of the ways I gauge if I am attracted to woman for the right reasons, if I am more interested in fouding out about her as a person and not wholy concerened with taking her to bed. Well, then I know I am in a good situation and am following any attraction I might have to somebody as wholly good. Now as far as looks go, while, even though there is the inner beauty there is also an outward beauty. The above example works well, these hot girls have no inward beauty so as such even though they are hot that is all they got, and if you are a good judge of character and observe you can see this. For me it has to be the perfect combination, to have the inner spark, which makes the outward beauty shine all the more.

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The question was not whether Dagny would sleep with Rearden if the world thought he was ugly, but whether she would if she thought so. And I think it's pretty obvious that she wouldn't; their relationship was not platonic, and the physical appearence of both of them was an important factor in their relationship. Not an exclusive factor by any means, but an important one. Just think of how many times, and in how many ways, AR described their physical attractiveness. The point is not that the world necessarily saw them as models, nor were they, but they were extremely physically appealing to each other, which is what matters.

If the world found Rearden ugly, but Dagny found Rearden beautiful then she would sleep with him. If he were objectively ugly, but she got used to his ugliness and grew to love it then she would sleep with him. I don't think their characterizations would change, let's say, if Rearden's face was burnt at some furnace before the novel opens. I still think that she would have slept with him. It is his ability as a worker and inventor that she finds most sexy. Granted if he were disfigured, then the story would have to be about that too. But it is not. Ayn Rand presents all her heroes as beautiful because she lives in a benevolent universe. I think that Ragnar is the only one that has to be beautiful. Everyone else doesn't have to be, if it weren't for the benevolent universe premise as such a great aspect of the novel. It would deny that premise, if Rearden could not fall in love because of his ugliness.

I am glad though that Rearden and Dagny are beautiful. I think the ten years of battle to create Rearden Metal is what really turns Dagny on. His beauty is just a wonderful cherry on top.

Americo.

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  • 3 weeks later...
The point, I think, is that being overweight is for most people an irrationality. This COULD be an indicator that said fat person is immoral in other ways, or it COULD be an isolated immorality in an otherwise good person. I don't think it's enough data to dismiss a person on this basis alone.

I wonder how many people missed the chance to chat with Miss Rand owing to a bias against smokers.

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Ayn Rand presents all her heroes as beautiful because she lives in a benevolent universe.  I think that Ragnar is the only one that has to be beautiful.  Everyone else doesn't have to be, if it weren't for the benevolent universe premise as such a great aspect of the novel.  It would deny that premise, if Rearden could not fall in love because of his ugliness.

Howard Roark? I've not read the Fountainhead for a while, but I don't remember him portrayed as being especially attractive (at least not in the way the characters of Atlas Shrugged were). If I recall correctly, Dominque found Roark attractive despite the fact he wasnt conventionally good-looking, which I suspect was a deliberate characterisation ploy.

Edited by Hal
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Okay um I am not sure how to say this, and I don't want to get kicked off the forum.

Since 6th grade I have been attracted to larger women. In my life I have consider only two skinny women to be sexually attarchtive. My Ex and Natalie Portman.

I have tried to "overcome" this situation both before and after I found Objectivism.

Right now I am in a reltesonship with a 5'11 foot girl who weighs roughly 300 pounds. I introduced Ayn Rand to her and she is now an huge fan. And honestly I have never felt happier in my life, she is my Dageny. Rand describs beauty as a sense of harmony and she fits that perfectly.

Objectivism is not about feelings I am not saying "I feel Codi is beatiful" I am saying "Codi is beatiful".

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