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2020 Democratic Candidates

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I'm glad to see Yang dropping out. Unfortunately this probably means more votes for Sanders.

I guess Biden has decided to burn his campaign to the ground before calling it quits. Begging for black votes in South Carolina is not the way I'd choose to die.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm really glad Steyer's out. He basically admits his campaign was a publicity stunt. He was "never in it for the votes." What a goof!

I thought Biden was dead, but he won South Carolina. Maybe he'll actually challenge Sanders. Personally I don't see the appeal of Biden. Watching him try to talk makes me wince.

Edited by MisterSwig
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I hated Buttigieg the least of the bunch, so I'm not so glad to see him go. While not stated explicitly, he seems to be bailing in order to help stop Sanders and send more votes to Biden on Super Tuesday. He talks about helping the down-ballot Democrats in the general election, and in the last debate he argued that socialist Bernie would be bad for them.

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I almost wonder though if he gave up because regardless of how he does in the primaries, he thinks no one would vote for him in the general election because he is gay. I don't think your reasoning makes sense.

Why would he believe that Biden would actually be more likely to win the general, before Super Tuesday has even happened? 

Edited by Eiuol
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8 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Why would he believe that Biden would actually be more likely to win the general, before Super Tuesday has even happened? 

I'm not sure yet. But I guess he and Klobuchar, who's also dropping out, are announcing their support for Biden tonight at a Biden rally in Texas.

 

Maybe they'll explain more at the rally. My guess is that they fear Sanders will split the party and push away moderate Dems.

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When Styx is right, he's right. Biden just sucks the least.

Now that everyone else dropped out, I don't think Sanders can win a brokered convention, if it comes to that--unless Sanders has some really spicy dirt on Biden.  

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/11/2020 at 1:01 PM, Grames said:

Great for America, benefitting America, improves America to a large degree.  

I agree with your definition, I just can't see how the current President, with his isolationist views, his terrible treatment of our allies, and his woeful views on women's right to an abortion, is great for America, benefits America, and improves America.  And, if anything, he has shown that his leadership during the current Covid-19 crisis is beyond pathetic.  He does not deserve to be re-elected.  If I were on a "board of directors" and Trump were CEO,  I'd move to have him fired.

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Odd, how perspectives differ. At a time of almost complete loss of freedoms, one does appreciate the partial freedom one and everybody else once had. I invite you, "Yes", to look at this from another point of view, outside of normal politics. To those of us in other countries like mine, a few Objectivists, some libertarians and even some conservatives, Trump and a free America represented the last hope of a free-er world. I leave aside abortion rights, but in every other way your president was and is after the good (the self-interested benefit) of all Americans, first. This has been an exemplar to those of us who see the West in gradual decline from collectivism, self-sacrifice and sacrifice.

What the president knows and understands is *the economy*. Before, above, taking precedence, over politics. Not being the quintessential politician and diplomat is what has perturbed many, which I think shows how dependent we've become on that breed. 

The economy is "the tide that lifts all boats". An energetic economy is the consequence of every citizen's freedom to act. Trump doesn't have to be an intellectual to understand that fact. Everything taken in toto of what the president has been doing has been towards that direction, freeing up the people from nanny statism and foreign entanglement. Taken a piece at a time  - out of full context -  he could seem at fault. I've seen all the arguments of his xenophobia, nationalism, isolationism, etc.etc. Put them all together and what emerges is: American is no longer to be considered the policeman and automatic savior of the world. That meant freeing the nation from bad deals made previously elsewhere. A relationship with an "ally" who takes constant advantage of one, is an abusive relationship. For all that, he's clearly demonstrated his willingness to make fresh deals with even prior enemies.

For too long everyone, Americans and other peoples have presumed upon the natural American benevolence. (Although, that too has been declining, mostly from and caused by the Left). When "benevolence" comes to mean your wealth, your creativity and even your lives are to be given freely in others' causes, that turns into sacrificial altruism. Rand warned of this as the downfall of the USA.

Anyway, I come here not to glorify Trump, but to state for the record that the "over all" (I stress) direction he was moving America in, represents or represented what freedom lovers - who appreciate better perhaps than most Americans do, what its loss means - cannot live without. And to credit him for the independence, self-responsibility and self-interest of your citizens - for they who'd take it - he had a hand in nurturing there. Blowing away the altruists, 'globalists' and other authoritarians denying that liberty. And he did it. He and you came so close. Before this stinking "pandemic".  Now it's uncertain what will become of the free world.  

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On 4/22/2020 at 1:39 PM, Yes said:

I agree with your definition, I just can't see how the current President, with his isolationist views, his terrible treatment of our allies, and his woeful views on women's right to an abortion, is great for America, benefits America, and improves America.  And, if anything, he has shown that his leadership during the current Covid-19 crisis is beyond pathetic.  He does not deserve to be re-elected.  If I were on a "board of directors" and Trump were CEO,  I'd move to have him fired.

You've been watching and reading to many Leftist news programs and articles if you think most of this is true. Which is not hard because it's the vast majority of sources available. Hint: Block the site when they make unreasonable accusations about Trump until you are only left with news that is neutral. I'm not Pro-Trump as I think in many ways he's an idiot and some of his positions and actions are immoral, but it's still a fact that he has been far and away the best president since Reagan, George W Bush being a distant second.

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1 hour ago, EC said:

You've been watching and reading to many Leftist news programs and articles if you think most of this is true. Which is not hard because it's the vast majority of sources available. Hint: Block the site when they make unreasonable accusations about Trump until you are only left with news that is neutral. I'm not Pro-Trump as I think in many ways he's an idiot and some of his positions and actions are immoral, but it's still a fact that he has been far and away the best president since Reagan, George W Bush being a distant second.

That's weird, cause see here I thought what mattered was whether or not an argument was valid and had true premises, not whether the person or website presenting a fact or argument was a *gasp* lEfTiSt or not. Then again, conservatives are garbage and bad at reason, I guess it's no surprise.

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5 hours ago, 2046 said:

That's weird, cause see here I thought what mattered was whether or not an argument was valid and had true premises, not whether the person or website presenting a fact or argument was a *gasp* lEfTiSt or not. Then again, conservatives are garbage and bad at reason, I guess it's no surprise.

Yeah, I hate conservatives which is why I'm a Capitalist. The point wasn't *who's* presenting facts, but that what the Leftist media presents is mostly biased opinions and lies.

Also Trump at his worst is infinitely better than any of the Democrats at their best. At least he's not an explicitly evil man, even if some of his opinions, positions, and actions are sometimes evil like trade wars, anti-immigration, religion, etc.

Again, I'm *not* a Trump supporter nor did I, or will I, vote for the man. I'm saying he is the least evil compared to anyone on the Left.

I'll add since you fired a semi-closeted shot at me that I have a 165 IQ, am an INTP, along with obviously being an Objectivist. I can use reason better 99.99999999 percent of everyone that has ever existed including also obviously, yourself. I'm also extremely proud to be a dick to people like yourself who deserve it. GFY.

Edited by EC
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20 hours ago, whYNOT said:

but to state for the record that the "over all" (I stress) direction he was moving America in, represents or represented what freedom lovers - who appreciate better perhaps than most Americans do, what its loss means - cannot live without.

Then this great direction is in spite of the bad philosophical beliefs he has. He is a mercantilist for one. He is not a champion of individual rights or "justice", as in law and order, unless it benefits him in some way. And he pursues socialist policies when it suits him. In addition to bizarre beliefs that come out on a daily basis.

The only thing that Trump may offer is a slower pace toward full blown socialism. Maybe he will surprise us. It is a gamble because a pragmatist can go either way at any time.

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3 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

Then this great direction is in spite of the bad philosophical beliefs he has. He is a mercantilist for one. He is not a champion of individual rights or "justice", as in law and order, unless it benefits him in some way. And he pursues socialist policies when it suits him. In addition to bizarre beliefs that come out on a daily basis.

The only thing that Trump may offer is a slower pace toward full blown socialism. Maybe he will surprise us. It is a gamble because a pragmatist can go either way at any time.

Huh, I at first also thought him to be a pragmatist, and changed my tune. He has "A" principle. That became clear. And it is a 'working America'. Which he understands, is and was what made America "great". This is misunderstood and misrepresented, nearly always by cynics (of which class I'm not including you). The same cynics who I hear recently on at least three networks, who snidely say exactly the same:

"Naturally Trump is pushing to recover a strong US economy during this coronavirus ... to get himself re-elected".

Those are the real (Leftist) pragmatists who show they haven't a need of, and fear and mock, principles. In the past three years many of them prayed for a US recession in order to overturn Trump, and publicly said so (being wealthy it would not hurt them). They are disgusting. They are the sacrificers. At this time they are not -too- unhappy with recent events, at the devastating cost to the nation and fellow citizens.

But to understand your president, one has to grasp his principle and - that - he means it. Not for his own benefit or self-aggrandisement (primarily) but because he CARES.

The overwhelmingly Left media have gradually taken over everyone's emotions and minds.

Edited by whYNOT
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The first step to any possible laissez-faire capitalism is a country fully at work, I think. That's employment for everybody if he/she so chooses. In which case, every individual would feel he has a stake in the economy, be his work ever so modest, and knows he can rise as far as he can, or begin his/her own enterprises, and so to experience not just the material benefits, but his deserved dignity and independence. And to find purpose - and freedom from others' needs/demands and from reliance on the government. (Of course the welfare state would reduce dramatically).

The top down theories we know so well, equally come into play: Briefly, Capitalism is moral. But without the personal experience individuals will have, it's only words, intellectual pie in the sky.

Can anyone inform me of better employment statistics in the USA than there were a few months ago? I haven't the recall from my 50 odd years of observing America. How exactly the influence of the president caused this, I'm unsure, but his de-regulations and breaking of unfavorable treaties and incumbrances of no value to the USA, had an effect. Certainly, recent business confidence was at an all time high, and confidence in the future may be discouraged or nurtured by the words and acts of leaders . Add in there that it's right for the country to be self-interested, Trump's explicit message.

To bear in mind, no matter how Trump's policies fall short of the ideals and standards we Objectivists hold for capitalism, they ~still~ have had a powerful effect.

I predict however that another, say, 5 - 10 years of that boosted economy in action, tasted by every American, would do amazing things for the nation. Not laissez-faire, but a move in that direction. With people in other nations, they (we) would not be able to resist the visibility of those effects on America. No matter how their intellectuals sneer, many of the populaces worldwide would slowly take note and want political/economic change and individual freedom. 

Edited by whYNOT
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3 hours ago, whYNOT said:

He has "A" principle. That became clear. And it is a 'working America'. Which he understands, is and was what made America "great". This is misunderstood and misrepresented, nearly always by cynics (of which class I'm not including you). The same cynics who I hear recently on at least three networks, who snidely say exactly the same:

"Naturally Trump is pushing to recover a strong US economy during this coronavirus ... to get himself re-elected".

"A working America" is an aspiration that ALL candidates have to get reelected. You think Democrats/Greens/Leftists etc want a non working America?

Trump's principle is to do it by some sort of redistribution of wealth, printing money, government debt. (if you don't see that, you are misunderstanding or misrepresenting it) There is no respect for individual rights. It is simply more deficit generating policies that Democrats are expected to do.

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 It's not hard to observe "Leftism" when many people I know profess some form of it, intellectuals write dense polemics about it, politicians parade it and when the media is full of it. They run to a type one can group under the new, New Left. What's hard to pin down is the philosophy of the Left. There is a shape-shifting element which almost denies identification. I notice how many don't even perceive their own self-contradictions, double standards and hypocrisy. Evidently, the victim/oppressor complex is always apparent, which points to a newly asserted altruist-collectivism and anti-individualism. Under it all is strong determinism  (prior factors that affected your "tribe" and that you haven't any free will to escape) and philosophical skepticism (generally, concrete-bound and anti-conceptual). Further, they are mostly reductive-materialists, who loathe religions (excepting Islam) but find mystical outlets in many other ways. A pattern does emerge of what "Leftism" has come to mean to they themselves, and it is militant departure from previously milder leftists. 

Edited by whYNOT
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1 hour ago, Easy Truth said:

"A working America" is an aspiration that ALL candidates have to get reelected. You think Democrats/Greens/Leftists etc want a non working America?

Trump's principle is to do it by some sort of redistribution of wealth, printing money, government debt. (if you don't see that, you are misunderstanding or misrepresenting it) There is no respect for individual rights. It is simply more deficit generating policies that Democrats are expected to do.

Can you deny that the "aspiration" became a reality? Right up until recent events? Yes, many may talk the talk, but under whose Administration did it happen?

The Parties you mention, naturally want "a working America" - in order to *pay for* their particular causes. Socialism and socialist policies can -only- exist and be carried out on the back of a good economy and capitalism (albeit, in its watered down form).

I go to basics. Trump stands for individual (economic) freedom and against sacrifices by Americans. (By extension, of anyone, anywhere). He plucked the presidency from under the noses of those who were set to seize that sacrificial power. That's why their outrage. The opposition have shown their premises for all the world to see.

Guys, what are we waiting for? Perfection? I certainly don't want or expect "perfection" from any leader. I am not in favor of "leaders" in general. Those that promise and pretend perfection are the most dangerous. Give credit, in justice, for the beneficial results that came your way, and which looked set to continue. THEN, one can criticize the president's methods, the mannerisms, the intemparate outbursts, etc. by proper standards.

Remember, a leader in any quite free country can only be as good or effective as his opposition allows him. Trump has had to face years of unprecedented stone-walling and personal attacks to undermine him. He has been damned if he does and damned when he doesn't. The MSM acting in concert, again.

Edited by whYNOT
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21 hours ago, EC said:

I'm not Pro-Trump as I think in many ways he's an idiot and some of his positions and actions are immoral, but it's still a fact that he has been far and away the best president since Reagan, George W Bush being a distant second.

So what positions makes Agent Orange such a great president?  His opposition to women's rights?  His trade sanctions which helped compromise the economy?  His current "leadership during the COVID-19 crisis?  What's your criteria? And don't hand me this bullshit that he's currently pro-abortion.  My lifetime goes back to Truman's presidency.  Truman is a gold standard compared to the presidents in the past 30 years, all of which are/were compromised leaders in one way, shape or form.

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1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

I go to basics. Trump stands for individual (economic) freedom and against sacrifices by Americans. (By extension, of anyone, anywhere).

If he stands for "individual freedom" why is he against women's right to an abortion?  Why his opposition to mail-in voting?

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1 hour ago, Yes said:

If he stands for "individual freedom" why is he against women's right to an abortion?  Why his opposition to mail-in voting?

This, the "global gag rule"? Is that so unreasonable?  Besides If a woman is benefiting from the economy and a good income, she can pay her own medical/contraceptive costs. Hardly "Trumps anti-abortion agenda" like the article claims, this "rule" is minor.

The good economy and full employment is central, all the rest follows and can be sorted - including quibbles like these. Mail -in voting too. Abortion is LEGAL in the US (although I realise heavily restricted and/or conditional in some states, e.g. against so-called "Full term" abortion) and I doubt Trump thinks he can over-ride the Supreme Court or wants to. He has to make some small efforts for his electorate.

. Trump’s anti-abortion agenda doesn’t just affect people in the US

In 2017 President Trump reinstated and expanded a policy called the “global gag rule”.  This rule states that any overseas organization which receives US global health funding cannot even mention abortion as part of their counselling or education programs—even if the money for these particular programs does not come from the US.

Even if providers think that a pregnancy will put a woman’s health at risk, they cannot tell her that abortion is an option or direct her to a safe provider. A recent study found that this policy is making a broad range of services less accessible, including contraceptive services, HIV/AIDS testing and treatment, cervical cancer screening and support for survivors of gender-based violence

Edited by whYNOT
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And Trump dragged his feet at the start of Covid. For good reason.  He was ill-advised. We all were stampeded into paranoia by the Press. Because he actually "cares" for the economy and knew what locking it down would mean to the country. (oh, my correction: - because he "wants that re-election ...")

(He was castigated for his 'xenophobia' for stopping flights from China by the same politicos who now slam him for not acting fast enough - damned if he does ... etc.)

Edited by whYNOT
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37 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

He was ill-advised. We all were stampeded into paranoia by the Press. Because he actually "cares" for the economy and knew what locking it down would mean to the country.

The lack of transparency about the virus is the ultimate killer. Both with the Chinese and Trump. Trump due to his desire to maintain the economy. The economy would have had a shock but it would have adjusted itself best with deregulation. The problems are systemic but people could have reacted better with accurate information.

His lying is not due to advice he gets, it is a personality trait. It is a trademark of this presidency. In addition to the open nepotism and enrichment without any regard for the laws against it.

As long as he creates jobs, let us be ok with any of his flaws. God uses imperfect instruments to do his work.

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8 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Can you deny that the "aspiration" became a reality? Right up until recent events? Yes, many may talk the talk, but under whose Administration did it happen?

The aspiration also became a reality when World War II started.

Now we have the biggest turn toward Socialism. What administration was that under?

These arguments are meaningless, they show nothing, prove nothing. (except that they are meaningless)

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