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MisterSwig

Trump, the Anti-Socialist

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President Trump is taking a survey on socialism versus capitalism. If he makes this the big issue in 2020, I might have no choice but to vote for him. Obviously, he's not the best spokesman for capitalism, but I don't think I can vote for a Democrat this time around.

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This is propaganda, not a survey.

If it were survey, it would try to be objective, and it wouldn't go for subtle psychological manipulation. Caps should only bring clarification, they should not be used for emphasis in a survey. The only question on there that is remotely objective is the first one. But it was done poorly, because it should be a Likert scale. Everything else is trying to induce a certain viewpoint, with a not-so-subtle assumption that any time you answer the second selection, you are a socialist or prefer socialism to capitalism.

AOC isn't a socialist, the green new deal is still essentially liberal rather than socialist. Illegal immigrants can't get welfare by definition (to get welfare, you need to be documented, otherwise, no one knows where to send the money). Good surveys don't give a forced choice, they always provide an "I don't know/don't care" option. The lack of one suggests that whoever designed this was trying to bias responses. The survey was designed to create an emotional response. It wasn't designed to gather information. Or rather, the information gathered would be information about how to best create more propaganda in the future.

If this convinced you that Trump is superior to any Democrat option, then the propaganda worked on you and you fell for it.

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1 hour ago, Eiuol said:

If it were survey, it would try to be objective, and it wouldn't go for subtle psychological manipulation.

 

1 hour ago, Eiuol said:

Everything else is trying to induce a certain viewpoint, with a not-so-subtle assumption that any time you answer the second selection, you are a socialist or prefer socialism to capitalism.

I'm confused. Did I get subtly or not-so-subtly manipulated into favoring capitalism? You realize it's a fundraising tool, right?

1 hour ago, Eiuol said:

AOC isn't a socialist, the green new deal is still essentially liberal rather than socialist.

The woman calls herself a democratic socialist, and I'm the one falling for propaganda?

1 hour ago, Eiuol said:

Illegal immigrants can't get welfare by definition (to get welfare, you need to be documented, otherwise, no one knows where to send the money).

Have you heard of welfare fraud or ID theft?

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9 minutes ago, Reidy said:

Some impostors are gathering names for a sucker list. I hope you didn't give them your contact information.

That's a laugh. You're talking about the President. I want him to have my email, so I can see what his people are saying in fundraising pitches. I was on Clinton's list for the same reason.

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2 hours ago, MisterSwig said:

I'm confused. Did I get subtly or not-so-subtly manipulated into favoring capitalism? You realize it's a fundraising tool, right?

Manipulated into believing that Trump is a capitalist, or an ally of capitalism. Manipulated into believing that the questions later have anything to do with capitalism. Because the survey isn't actually about capitalism, but you are manipulated to believe that it is. Then your support hardens because it just feels right after that point. Then you are more likely to donate money. 

2 hours ago, MisterSwig said:

Have you heard of welfare fraud or ID theft?

It was phrased to make you imagine giving welfare to illegal immigrants who have not committed any other kind of crime. Or it creates an immediate association with illegal immigration as synonymous with violent crime and fraud.

2 hours ago, MisterSwig said:

The woman calls herself a democratic socialist,

I actually did not know that. Now I do. But I do know that she is in the Democratic Party. At the very most, she is a conflicted socialist (she wouldn't be part of the Democratic Party if she were certain about it) and it's not even a threatening kind of socialism.

2 hours ago, MisterSwig said:

You're talking about the President.

Where does this survey come from? You do realize that regardless of Trump's involvement, there is good reason that Russia (and other countries who have an active interest in American politics) to affect or psychologically manipulate people, and we know it happens. And if you know that someone from the White House created it, you shouldn't want them to have your information either. If you just want to see the fundraising pitches, I hope you use a secondary email.

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2 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Manipulated into believing that Trump is a capitalist, or an ally of capitalism. Manipulated into believing that the questions later have anything to do with capitalism. Because the survey isn't actually about capitalism, but you are manipulated to believe that it is. Then your support hardens because it just feels right after that point. Then you are more likely to donate money. 

You have quite an imagination. I don't donate to political candidates. And I'm certainly not going to believe Trump is a capitalist based on one lame poll.

2 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Where does this survey come from?

Seriously? I guess you've never been to Trump's website.

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On 12/6/2019 at 12:45 AM, MisterSwig said:

If he makes this the big issue in 2020, I might have no choice but to vote for him.

 

11 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Manipulated into believing that Trump is a capitalist, or an ally of capitalism.

 

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Trump is a bigger ally of capitalism than the Democratic Socialists.

And, like I said, if Trump makes the next election a referendum on capitalism versus socialism, then I'm not voting for socialism, no matter how much fancy wrapping paper and bows the Democrats put on socialism.

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Since in this survey there is no kind of explanation of how Trump might be a capitalist at least somewhat, we are left with associations and trigger words. What do you prefer, liberalized socialism (I'm using that to say that Democrats are neoliberals mostly without any genuine socialist beliefs), or pragmatic nationalism? But that's not even the question, we are only talking about capitalism versus socialism because you suggested that the survey really was about capitalism versus socialism. It isn't.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Since in this survey there is no kind of explanation of how Trump might be a capitalist at least somewhat, we are left with associations and trigger words. 

We can judge him by his entire life and presidency.

2 hours ago, Eiuol said:

What do you prefer, liberalized socialism (I'm using that to say that Democrats are neoliberals mostly without any genuine socialist beliefs), or pragmatic nationalism?

I don't accept the premise. The Democrats have plenty of genuine socialist beliefs, as do many Republicans.

2 hours ago, Eiuol said:

But that's not even the question, we are only talking about capitalism versus socialism because you suggested that the survey really was about capitalism versus socialism. It isn't.

The survey is clearly about socialism versus capitalism. You just don't like how it's worded. For some reason you expect Trump to design a scientific survey for a fundraising campaign.

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And I can't for the life of me come up with a reason to think he is anything like a capitalist. I really can't. That's not a snarky answer, I really can't give you one example. I don't know what premise of mine you're talking about, unless you mean lack of genuine socialist belief on behalf of Democrats (plenty of them are full-on neoliberals especially Joe Biden), but even with that, the point I was emphasizing was nationalism. Capitalism is not even an option. I don't even know what you mean by the survey is clearly about socialism versus capitalism. Only the first and fifth question really ask a question about that. To say that I think AOC has a better vision of America than Trump isn't to say that I prefer socialism over capitalism.

1 hour ago, MisterSwig said:

For some reason you expect Trump to design a scientific survey for a fundraising campaign.

It's not even hard to do. Yes, I have higher standards than this. I don't like propaganda. Of course I just don't like how it's worded, the only meaning and content to it is the connotation of the words. There isn't anything else there. 

 

Edited by Eiuol

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Whew. Wow.There was this sort of casuistry and denial back In Zimbabwe before my family left. 

They are not really like that.

He/she don't really mean what they say.

Their hearts are in the right place, progress for all the people.

Socialism does abide by the democratic vote, free and fair elections.

The country is plenty rich enough to support Socialism.

That can't happen here!

Then South Africa. The same refrain, Zimbabwe can't happen here and a decade or two later here we are hovering on the edge, and the "neo-liberals" and socialist-apologists have quietly upped and left.

 

 

Edited by whYNOT

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12 hours ago, Eiuol said:

And I can't for the life of me come up with a reason to think he is anything like a capitalist. I really can't.

You're not trying very hard.

1. Trump cuts taxes.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-tax-cuts-push-u-s-burden-lower-in-world-11575540004

2. Trump repeals regulations.

https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/tracking-deregulation-in-the-trump-era/

3. Trump regularly advocates for free and fair markets.

You might disagree with his tariffs policy and trade war. But he's coming from a position of defending free markets and Americans against unfair trading partners, and there is substance to his argument. China, for example, is a horrible trading partner. Trump's brand of nationalism is not based on ethnicity or religion. It's based on a pragmatic grasp of capitalism.

Also, his current trouble with impeachment, I believe, comes because of his campaign against potential corruption among Democrats like Clinton and Biden, and his dislike of foreign aid, which is another point on the side of him being more capitalist than socialist. Obviously he's not an Objectivist-type of laissez-faire capitalist. But that doesn't mean he's wholly uncapitalistic.

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2 hours ago, MisterSwig said:

Obviously he's not an Objectivist-type of laissez-faire capitalist. But that doesn't mean he's wholly uncapitalistic.

If Elizabeth Warner or Bernie Sanders were the democratic candidates "any republican" would be better.

In relations to them, Trump is more pro capitalism.

But as you say, that does not make Trump a Capitalist within our context on this forum.

There is a fundamental problem in the country and that is the hijacking of language.

  • Sanders and other socialists are saying they are not Marxist.
  • Most people in the United States think that we are Capitalists.
  • Republicans are considered the pro capitalism party.

The words have lost their meanings.

Trump may be for Capitalism, but a Crony or Fascist type rather than Laissez faire Capitalist.

Decreases regulations? Tariffs don't mean regulation? Using depression era welfare for farmers is not regulation?

Decreasing taxation without spending means increase in deficit, each man's imposed debt. Nothing Capitalist about that.

China is a horrible trading partner? Is anyone forcing us to trade with them?

Both parties will enlarge government.

Neither can accurately say they are Capitalist, Trump nor Pelosi, even though both claim it. Lets not add to the manipulation of language.
 

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1. Cutting taxes isn't a mark of capitalism. It must accompany explicit condemnation of income tax especially, or some kind of explicit regard for what rights are. Cutting taxes was in relation to disapproval of the types of programs they were funding. 

2. I mean, Pinochet in Chile repealed even more regulations in comparison. Would you call him a capitalist? And boy was he against socialism!

3. He sounds like a neoliberal. "We support free trade, but it needs to be fair". That's as neoliberal as it gets. 

2046 summed it all up more succinctly.

But this is really beside the point. The survey wasn't about capitalism, and reveals a type of political campaign resting on emotional impulse.

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5 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

There is a fundamental problem in the country and that is the hijacking of language.

An election battle is not the time to argue semantics. If one side is owning "capitalism," and the other side is owning "socialism," we should defeat the "socialists," then fight among ourselves over the ideal meaning of "capitalism." However, this depends on the Democratic nominee owning some brand of socialism. It'll work against Sanders, maybe not against Warren, Biden or Buttigieg. But we'll see how far Left the Democratic candidate has to go to secure the nomination.

26 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

Decreases regulations? Tariffs don't mean regulation?

Tariffs are more like a tax.

27 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

Using depression era welfare for farmers is not regulation?

Welfare is a handout.

28 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

Decreasing taxation without spending means increase in deficit, each man's imposed debt. Nothing Capitalist about that.

Trump clearly wants to make significant cuts in spending, but he has no support from the Democrats.

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-tells-aides-to-look-for-big-spending-cuts-in-second-term-seeding-confusion-about-budget-priorities/2019/07/19/3e9e9bde-a98c-11e9-86dd-d7f0e60391e9_story.html

41 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

China is a horrible trading partner? Is anyone forcing us to trade with them?

You're missing the point. It's about Americans who are harmed by China's unfair trade policies and violation of property rights. We open our markets to them, but they don't reciprocate, which gives their companies an advantage and puts ours at a disadvantage. On top of that, they don't respect rights and steal our intellectual property.

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1 hour ago, Easy Truth said:

In relations to them, Trump is more pro capitalism.

Don't fall victim to the propaganda. You are falling for emotionalism if you think Sanders resembles a Marxist also.

There are not just two sides. If there are only two polar sides, of course someone who says they don't like socialism will be more capitalistic. I brought up Pinochet because by this type of standard, even leaders who exterminate thousands of people will be more capitalistic than Bernie Sanders. The only two sides we care about are capitalist or not capitalist. Is Trump just as far away as Sanders? I think so. 

As for me, I really only care about positions on China. That's the only way we can tell if someone is remotely interested in individual rights. Trump says nothing about Hong Kong that makes me hopeful he cares even a little bit about individual rights. Then again, nobody else does either.

We aren't fighting for capitalism first. Individual rights are first. Capitalism is a mechanism of individual rights. 

So yeah, if we don't want to play a semantic game, we should stop saying capitalism with regard to the election (at least outside of this board).

Edited by Eiuol

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8 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

As for me, I really only care about positions on China. That's the only way we can tell if someone is remotely interested in individual rights. Trump says nothing about Hong Kong that makes me hopeful he cares even a little bit about individual rights. Then again, nobody else does either.

Trump stood before the UN and told China to respect Hong Kong's freedom.

And he recently signed a bill supporting Hong Kong human rights.

 

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28 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

Don't fall victim to the propaganda. You are falling for emotionalism if you think Sanders resembles a Marxist also.

Propaganda aside, Bernie has a Marxist bias. Both in his personal behavior of having his honeymoon in the Soviet Union and his Support for Chavez. Mandating employee ownership? Redistribution of wealth of non criminals? There are others I can't remember right this second.

Now there is some of that authoritarianism in Trump too, but there more of a pro-individual-ownership tendency that Trump has. (maybe minimal and perhaps unwittingly) Having said that, who knows how he will "morph" based on childish emotional reactions that he displays. I am not a pro Trump apologist. He is truly horrible simply regarding law lessness which could cause this country to collapse on our life time so he is a serious risk.

11 minutes ago, MisterSwig said:

Trump stood before the UN and told China to respect Hong Kong's freedom.

Claiming that Trump cares about Chinese in Hong Kong is propaganda when he has never said anything in support until after he saw a bipartisan support that he could not challenge.

39 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

The only two sides we care about are capitalist or not capitalist. Is Trump just as far away as Sanders? I think so. 

If it comes to laissez faire capitalism, that is probably true. So then the comparison is between crony capitalism or socialism and something they are very similar. But if we were going to compare based on human rights, Trump comes out ahead, just a little.

He supported right to choose which has been a Libertarian wish and looking into how insurance companies could be allowed to sell insurance across borders.

1 hour ago, MisterSwig said:

Tariffs are more like a tax.

You forget Taxation is forced through regulation and against individual rights.  You are arguing that higher taxation on this area of the economy is good taxation but lowering taxes is capitalistic.

Also, welfare, any form is a forced redistribution of wealth, which you are arguing as favorable.

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4 hours ago, Easy Truth said:

Claiming that Trump cares about Chinese in Hong Kong is propaganda when he has never said anything in support until after he saw a bipartisan support that he could not challenge.

Reportedly, Trump used his support of Hong Kong as a bargaining chip. He agreed to tone down U.S. support for Hong Kong if China resumed trade talks. The talks haven't gone well, so he's now expressing support for Hong Kong.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/trump-xi-jinping-soften-hong-kong-criticism-trade-talks-report-2019-7

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2 hours ago, MisterSwig said:

Reportedly, Trump used his support of Hong Kong as a bargaining chip. He agreed to tone down U.S. support for Hong Kong if China resumed trade talks. The talks haven't gone well, so he's now expressing support for Hong Kong.

You proved Eiuol's point.

If trade talks had gone well, he would not have supported the protesters.

Correct, he does not value individual rights. One can also see that in his support for Saudi Arabia and some other places.

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1 hour ago, Easy Truth said:

If trade talks had gone well, he would not have supported the protesters.

No, he wouldn't have made it expressed U.S. policy. You don't know what Trump thinks privately or what he's said to Xi in private. You're using this one issue as a litmus test for his stance on individual rights and you don't even have the relevant facts. 

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2 hours ago, MisterSwig said:

You're using this one issue as a litmus test for his stance on individual rights and you don't even have the relevant facts. 

Several issues have been mentioned, not just Hong Kong.

It is clear that he does not value individual rights, his Howard Stern interview before he was elected, his pro evangelical positions, his behavior both with Saudi Arabia and Hong Kong adequately demonstrate an absence of valuing individual rights. 

Admittedly we can't know precisely (and for how long) what he thinks, but 

  • The only thing we can be sure about his thinking is that getting reelected is the most important thing in the world.
  • If the polls supported return of Slavery, he probably would support it (assuming none of his family and friends would become slaves).
  • One can predict more immature behavior on his part. 
  • He believes he is the great victim, never acknowledging his behavior has created predictable backlash.
  • He is not committed to protecting us from socialism, in fact if the polls support socialism, he will support socialism to get elected.

Bottom line, the OP was about supporting his bid to be a champion of Capitalism against Socialism.

Depends which democratic candidate we compare him to and what kind of Capitalism you are talking about.

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