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Those Lockdown Protests Across America

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16 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Trapped between concerns for his constituents' health panic and economic fears, a lock down would be inevitable for every one of them.

I think you're starting to get it. The protesters in question are protesting the lockdown at all, which is a violation of rights. Trump, on the other hand, has given in to a lockdown. 

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What I don't get, is the common belief that it is "the leader", e.g. a president, who would "somehow" lead all the people to individual rights and laissez-faire.

Do we need to find a capitalist dictator?

That's an non-intellectual position and a causal reversal. The insistence of the majority and their predominant philosophy are the determining factor of their leaders .

Edited by whYNOT

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2 hours ago, Eiuol said:

That's not even what we were talking about, you are avoiding discussion about if Trump is compromising about individual rights. You said I should praise him, but I'm saying he's the last person to praise precisely because he has compromised on rights (as I expected he would unfortunately).

To clear this up. I have not said you should blanket praise him. I've indicated that what is praiseworthy of Trump is his principle for a working America. And that such was happening.

When commerce and industry and employment is going big time, individuals largely forget about their superficial 'differences' (wealth, race, etc.) They mix more. They don't have time and motive for mischief. They don't need a Nanny State. They want to be left alone to their lives.

Edited by whYNOT

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13 hours ago, whYNOT said:

I've indicated that what is praiseworthy of Trump is his principle for a working America.

I just don't see how he has done this, precisely because he has compromised on individual rights. 

You haven't disagreed that he has compromised on individual rights. 

13 hours ago, whYNOT said:

What I don't get, is the common belief that it is "the leader", e.g. a president, who would "somehow" lead all the people to individual rights and laissez-faire.

Do you mean me? No, I don't believe that.

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13 hours ago, Eiuol said:

I just don't see how he has done this, precisely because he has compromised on individual rights. 

You haven't disagreed that he has compromised on individual rights. 

Do you mean me? No, I don't believe that.

You are coming at this from only one end, I think. Too "top down". Too political. You do know there is only so much any leader can do against the moral will of the majority. Not just what he can do, but should the ethics of the people be a leader's responsibility?

Individual rights, O'ists know, is the manifested end of a philosophical process. What Trump is up against - overwhelmingly from the Left, today and lately - is entrenched altruism. And further, by an anti-reason epistemology. Take a look at how the treatment of this pandemic has upended and broken millions of people's lives, with the universal, unquestioned presumption that one must "do good". That the anonymous "other" and his/her living - is one's responsibility.

E.g. If someone might catch the virus from me by my selfish behavior - and they die - I am morally culpable. (And never mind that 99.xxx % of patients recover. It's the perception of guilt that counts. They "could" die).

Governments too have responded with imposed sacrificiality on the populaces, to meet the self-sacrificial morality nearly everybody in a society is brought up with. In some countries, opportunists know that total political power can be wrested away and another dispensation advanced and enforced or furthered (both the US and South Africa, not all that different in their envisaged outcomes by our power lusters).

Lock down control will become the habit, and the masses will remain controlled and subservient.

What is abundantly clear, with the coronavirus has come an eruption of the always underlying altruism in the West. Objectivist thinkers must have picked this up. They only debate the role of a proper government and rights in a crisis, and from what I see, ignore the fundaments.

Therefore, when O'ists don't cover it, who can expect Trump to oppose the lock down on ~ethical~ grounds? When all about him, even his scientist advisers, have altruist premises and advocate harsh controls? With little concern for the life of everybody else.

 I doubt any politicians have Rand's grasp of the destructiveness on man's life of altruism.  BUT - I maintain that the president knows well its effects, visibly. His opposition in action to the sacrificial *effects* upon the USA is the real reason he is universally loathed and feared (by altruists).

Edited by whYNOT

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9 hours ago, whYNOT said:

His opposition in action to the sacrificial *effects* upon the USA is the real reason he is universally loathed and feared (by altruists).

What actions?

9 hours ago, whYNOT said:

who can expect Trump to oppose the lock down on ~ethical~ grounds?

I don't understand, why couldn't he oppose it on ethical grounds?

Edited by Eiuol

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54 minutes ago, Eiuol said:

 

I don't understand, why couldn't he oppose it on ethical grounds?

Put it together. The epidemiologists were authoritatively insisting on lock down, citing dire mortality numbers , the panic-stricken people were observing the consequences of corona on Italy and NY state, the media were fear-mongering for all they were worth - and the president (ANY president) must stand alone against them all?

Knowing better science than the scientists. Understanding the sacrificial premises of everyone. Not budging on individual rights. Ignoring the partisan opposition. In proud certainty of his principled, ethical position.  

Trump could have got himself impeached all over again. (And nearly was. Schiff or someone suggested it for Trump's 'lateness' in imposing the lock downs). Which would have disturbed him not much, as before.

Earth to Louie. What heroic movie do you have running in your mind?

Edited by whYNOT

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36 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

and the president (ANY president) must stand alone against them all?

You said he couldn't oppose it on ethical grounds, so I asked why not. I don't think going it alone would be a reason not to, not to mention that he would get support if he asked anyway. I would support him if he made some statement along the lines of "this violation of the constitutional rights of people in the US must stop". I support Elon Musk for saying that, and I would support Trump if he did that. I respect people more when they're willing to go it alone. 

I don't think it would be bad if the protesters asked Trump for help (because he isn't helping them right now) rather than saying they support Trump (even though he hasn't done anything to help them yet). 

36 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Not budging on individual rights.

You didn't disagree that he has compromised on individual rights, and you didn't correct me, so I don't know what you mean.

Edited by Eiuol

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As far as protests in general go, it's weird to me that Musk has been unfairly demonized for wanting to reopen his own factories. Even the article you linked isn't completely accurate, suggesting that Musk would be reopening his factory without a plan in place. He actually does have a plan, but I've seen many people ignore his plan entirely, or flat-out not trust anything he said. 

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-anti-pandemic-plan-deaf-ears-anti-elon-musk-narrative

 

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8 hours ago, whYNOT said:

From the home town of Curwood's Castle,

Michigan Militia says they won't allow police to enter Owosso barber shop

In other reports, Karl Manke acknowledges that he has been informed that the state is suspending his license (state sanctioned 'permission to do business slip'), but has not received written notification. Also, a local judge has refused to enforce a restraining order and the local sheriff has refused to enforce the Michigan governor's 'stay-at-home' order in the matter. (older related story)

Meanwhile, reports of new cases in Wuhan, China are being forwarded to alert the egoists, and help to make the nests of altruists everywhere appear well-feathered. (Link 1, Link 2)

 

Not knowing the logistics surrounding the Tesla plant,  relocating within 12-18 months seems aggressive gauging it against the thought of using a similar threat about moving General Motors, Ford or Fiat-Chrysler-Automotive out of Michigan directed toward current Governor Whitmer.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Eiuol said:

What actions?

 

That's not a rabbit hole I particularly wish to pursue, Eiuol. One has have to have 'been there', to inductively follow the implications and effects of Trump's actions and words which have reverberated in every place.  (An invaluable takeout we know from Objectivism, in justice, to assess the integrity of how a person's words match his deeds).

As I say - No. 1 - and tops for me : That he has shocked to the core the international altruistic Establishment and shown them up for the anti-individual sacrificers they are. How deliberately he did so is another matter and I believe of lesser importance.

Being leader of the free world, a fact I grew to better deeply appreciate, America has been always getting my avid attention, and now more than ever.

We collectively stand at this most uncertain time, perhaps bound for greater global, statist controls and collectivism, and the direction the USA takes is crucial. An ~operational~ US which quickly regains its famed "business as usual" is therefore critical, to we on the outside too.

Will Trump be the man for the times?* Plain to see, in opposition, there is an intrinsicism applied by most to Trump which Objectivists alone should be savvy to. I continually hear how people take as the given that his outward manner and appearance ~must~ be revealing of his inner "soul". Further, those critics judge him by either a. double standards, or b. impossible standards.

For all his faults, one word that sums up his character for me: indomitable. 

*Huh, I later recall the recent, very clever Time cover on Trump. "Time ... to go". As the Left media are expert at, never letting a crisis go to waste.

Edited by whYNOT

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An informative conversation, while not actually much "about Trump's response". "Perspective" Crenshaw raises. Right, that's what was lacking all along with the crisis. They touch on the changing face of conservatism, "atheist Conservatives", any one?  And Trump's "style". An hour long, but can be sped up, of course:

 

Edited by whYNOT

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"That generation approached viruses with calm, rationality and intelligence" [Tucker] said.

And character, too. 51 years since 1969 and what has changed? Two generations which gradually abandoned reason - and character virtues. Most, they've given up any idea of objective value. Those were people (my parents' generation) who had faced worse, having gone through a European war of doubtful outcome, and many the Cold War, unpredictable too. They had learned that "life must go on", wars or pandemics, and whatever comes they must protect the values they still had, for themselves, for we the children and later generations. Not as sacrifices to be made, although that's wrongly how every person would then have framed it, but as defending the greater values over the lesser. The post-modern devolution to skepticism, determinism, infantalism and a primacy of sensations has put paid to the rational "calm" (and benevolence to others and good humor). This global shutdown, an attempted suicide of man's life, is how present generations which have only known the soft life, repay our parents and grandparents their tough-minded resolve. 

Edited by whYNOT

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