NIJamesHughes Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 recently i was having a debate with an old friend of mine about government programs like welfare, and she said "well, i can't say anything against government programs because my mom was really poor and we wouldn't have had anywhere to live or anything to eat if it hadn't been for the government" I really didn't know what to say to this except, "well maybe your mom would have had enough money if the government did tax 25% from each check.." how could this argument be classified, and what is the proper response? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenstauffer Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 Argument from ancedote, or personal experience. I would respond by pointing out that her same argument could be said by a white southern slave owner to defend slavery. "well, I can't say anything against slavery because I was really poor and I wouldn't have had any money if it hadn't been for the cheap slave labor" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIJamesHughes Posted April 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 Argument from ancedote, or personal experience. I would respond by pointing out that her same argument could be said by a white southern slave owner to defend slavery. "well, I can't say anything against slavery because I was really poor and I wouldn't have had any money if it hadn't been for the cheap slave labor" Thank you for your reply, Ken. One more question: Why is argument from ancedote invalid, logically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 Well, it wasn't technically a fallacious argument, since the conclusion was essentially "I don't dislike the government." If she went on to explicitly argue that those government programs are justifiable because she likes them, then that would be fallacious. I classify that line of reasoning as "Need Negating Property Rights." Ask her what property rights are, and how anybody's right to their property is dependent on her mother's needs. This position cannot be supported without using a flawed understanding of property rights, or the denial (directly or indirectly) of property rights all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenstauffer Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 Why is argument from ancedote invalid, logically? It's not always invalid. A valid use of an ancedote would be as a counter example, as in this case: If I say X is always true and you ancedotally show an instance in which X is not true, then it's a good argument. An ancedote can refute a principle, but an ancedote that supports a principle, is mostly useless. That's precisely why we need science, so that we can infer truth beyond the causual everyday experience of man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIJamesHughes Posted April 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 close encounter with a democratic socialist hindu environmentalist multiculturalist, that i just can't stop talking to. She will probably grow up to be a typical leftist intellectual, unfortunately: JamesShrugged [10:28 PM]: i think they changed quickly because the FF made one fatal ommision to the constitution and one fatal admission ThinRedKitty [10:28 PM]: Which I'd like to tell all the Christians in the World JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: the ommision was the lack of a property right JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: yeah! ThinRedKitty [10:29 PM]: American government was NOT founded on Christianity JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: and the addmission was section 8 JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: very true ThinRedKitty [10:29 PM]: the idea of GOD was not a specific GOD JamesShrugged [10:29 PM]: it was founded on the principle of individual rights ThinRedKitty [10:29 PM]: therefore, the ideals Christians think should be forced upon the people are Wrong JamesShrugged [10:30 PM]: i agree JamesShrugged [10:30 PM]: i have made an anti christian website, would you like to see it? ThinRedKitty [10:31 PM]: I guess I can be content in any situation where I have enough money and people arent invading my home ThinRedKitty [10:31 PM]: Sure! JamesShrugged [10:31 PM]: Religion: and the Threat of Fascism in America JamesShrugged [10:32 PM]: 18 articles on religion and capitalism JamesShrugged [10:33 PM]: the articles are by Objectivist's ThinRedKitty [10:33 PM]: Im reading the Abortion one ThinRedKitty [10:33 PM]: I read a really good article once, and it said women today are being treated as merely containers JamesShrugged [10:34 PM]: true ThinRedKitty [10:34 PM]: its true, its like we are Nothing JamesShrugged [10:34 PM]: its because thats the way religion sees humans ThinRedKitty [10:34 PM]: And its usually MEN who are behind the Pro-Life movement JamesShrugged [10:35 PM]: Christianity says the body is meaningless, so the right says, so what if we legislate it JamesShrugged [10:35 PM]: no need to make hasty generalizations JamesShrugged [10:35 PM]: JamesShrugged [10:35 PM]: besides its irrelevent what ones gender is in relation to philosophic issues ThinRedKitty [10:36 PM]: yeah, can you imagine having some kind of parasite attached to your body like that, not that babies are parasites, but fetuses are similar to the work of a parasite JamesShrugged [10:36 PM]: biologically they are though... JamesShrugged [10:36 PM]: especially if you don't want it there ThinRedKitty [10:36 PM]: And can you imagine someone saying sorry you cant remove it ThinRedKitty [10:36 PM]: exactly JamesShrugged [10:36 PM]: i know!! ThinRedKitty [10:36 PM]: Id be like F YOU JamesShrugged [10:37 PM]: thats why it all seems so unreal to me when i have to argue about it ThinRedKitty [10:37 PM]: ME TOO! ThinRedKitty [10:37 PM]: I mean, even if a Man were good, and he said He'd take care of it, there are other issues ThinRedKitty [10:37 PM]: Such as the sick feeling JamesShrugged [10:38 PM]: i think "they cant really believe what they are saying, noone can: its monstrous ThinRedKitty [10:38 PM]: and not being able to work JamesShrugged [10:38 PM]: not to mention the actual birth ThinRedKitty [10:38 PM]: I mean, even if other stresses can be alleviated with money, certain issues where a fetus is concerned cannot be ThinRedKitty [10:38 PM]: OH GOD JamesShrugged [10:39 PM]: "you have to by law fit shomething the size of a watermelon into an opening the size of a lemon..." JamesShrugged [10:39 PM]: out of* JamesShrugged [10:39 PM]: sick bastards ThinRedKitty [10:39 PM]: Oh god ThinRedKitty [10:39 PM]: hehehe ThinRedKitty [10:39 PM]: I wanna have a baby someday, but it will be MY CHOICE ThinRedKitty [10:39 PM]: Just like its my choice not to have one JamesShrugged [10:40 PM]: good deal JamesShrugged [10:40 PM]: i think i would like to raise a baby someday ThinRedKitty [10:40 PM]: yeah, I love kids ThinRedKitty [10:40 PM]: SO CUTE ThinRedKitty [10:40 PM]: and sweet, most of the time JamesShrugged [10:40 PM]: there is also an article on assisted suicide on the page ThinRedKitty [10:40 PM]: You know whats weird, JamesShrugged [10:40 PM]: yeah JamesShrugged [10:41 PM]: what? ThinRedKitty [10:41 PM]: I guess I havent really had the generation gap ThinRedKitty [10:41 PM]: I try to say Y'all have a nice day or something, if a girl has a kid ThinRedKitty [10:41 PM]: I want the kids to feel like they matter too JamesShrugged [10:41 PM]: naw its just polite ThinRedKitty [10:41 PM]: Too many people treat young people like shit JamesShrugged [10:41 PM]: sure ThinRedKitty [10:42 PM]: They deserve to be recognized too ThinRedKitty [10:42 PM]: besides makes them smile JamesShrugged [10:42 PM]: hehe cute JamesShrugged [10:42 PM]: ick it is raining and thundering outside JamesShrugged [10:43 PM]: what did you think of the article? ThinRedKitty [10:43 PM]: its good ThinRedKitty [10:43 PM]: I wanna be more charitable ThinRedKitty [10:43 PM]: im gonna do more nice things for people JamesShrugged [10:44 PM]: with the gov. already deciding what you should donate to, its kinda hard to do it on your own JamesShrugged [10:44 PM]: as far as money goes ThinRedKitty [10:44 PM]: true JamesShrugged [10:44 PM]: i donate to the ayn rand institute though ThinRedKitty [10:44 PM]: im gonna give a bunch of clothes to goodwill ThinRedKitty [10:44 PM]: cool JamesShrugged [10:45 PM]: i was thinking of donating a copies of all of her books the UAFS library ThinRedKitty [10:45 PM]: i hate chocolate but i buy these chocolates at school, and the money goes to the endangered animals ThinRedKitty [10:45 PM]: good idea JamesShrugged [10:45 PM]: maybe like 15% JamesShrugged [10:46 PM]: i worked for a telemarketing company and we raise money for the state police and only 15% went to them ThinRedKitty [10:46 PM]: yeah its low but the bars are relatively cheap ThinRedKitty [10:47 PM]: and the man worked in the science field in africa JamesShrugged [10:47 PM]: i know of a proreason environmental concern group JamesShrugged [10:47 PM]: thats cool, i always loved science ThinRedKitty [10:47 PM]: so he founded his company based on the atrocities he saw the others committing JamesShrugged [10:48 PM]: to animals? ThinRedKitty [10:48 PM]: yes ThinRedKitty [10:48 PM]: like poaching and stuff JamesShrugged [10:48 PM]: yeah thats no good ThinRedKitty [10:48 PM]: I knowww JamesShrugged [10:48 PM]: i think i have a website for everything lol JamesShrugged [10:49 PM]: Save The Earth From The Environmentalists try the opening quote ThinRedKitty [10:49 PM]: In Hinduism we believe Animals were created on a different statues, because humans are unique in language and etc. However, God created us more intelligent in order to help take care of animals ThinRedKitty [10:49 PM]: So we owe it to them to treat them with respect because of all that humans take from them JamesShrugged [10:50 PM]: sure we should ThinRedKitty [10:50 PM]: We dont advocate anything however, JamesShrugged [10:51 PM]: but when it comes to us or them, we should definately chose us ThinRedKitty [10:51 PM]: because its up to each of us to believe whatever, ThinRedKitty [10:51 PM]: But we can change ourselves ThinRedKitty [10:51 PM]: yeah, depends on the person hehee JamesShrugged [10:51 PM]: lol right JamesShrugged [10:51 PM]: but i mean humanity in general ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: yeah ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: We are destroying ourselves ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: quickly JamesShrugged [10:52 PM]: on case i heard of and hate is that some farmers had to shut down their irrigation system because it might harm the trout population.. ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: wow, trout arent exactly on the endangered species list ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]: lol JamesShrugged [10:53 PM]: yeah i know JamesShrugged [10:53 PM]: stuff like that happens all the time JamesShrugged [10:53 PM]: like with ddt ThinRedKitty [10:53 PM]: I mean, in order to protect life in general we should protect those endangered, but whats a few hundred trout? JamesShrugged [10:53 PM]: especially when you consider that farmers grow our food ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]: brb JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]: k ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]: nm, my roommie in tha bathroom ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]: gah JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]: this is funny and true: "Earth First!" The unspoken implication is: humans last. ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]: I drank too much coffee JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]: uh oh JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]: JamesShrugged [10:55 PM]: there is a girl at work who literally has to pee every 15 minutes ThinRedKitty [10:55 PM]: ME TOO JamesShrugged [10:55 PM]: and we work out of a car in the field so... JamesShrugged [10:55 PM]: we are always pulling over ThinRedKitty [10:55 PM]: That was me on the way to Chicago ThinRedKitty [10:55 PM]: ahhaha JamesShrugged [10:56 PM]: she said, you dont have to go to a bathroom, just make sure noone is around.. hehe JamesShrugged [10:56 PM]: so now we carry toilt paper with us JamesShrugged [10:56 PM]: toilet* ThinRedKitty [10:56 PM]: hahaha ThinRedKitty [10:56 PM]: that sucks! JamesShrugged [10:57 PM]: what would be a good day to celebrate the industrial revolution? ThinRedKitty [10:57 PM]: hmmm ThinRedKitty [10:57 PM]: i dunno, maybe something to do with Russia? ThinRedKitty [10:58 PM]: or some invention's birthday that had the most impact JamesShrugged [10:58 PM]: thomas edison.. henry ford ThinRedKitty [10:58 PM]: oooh ThinRedKitty [10:58 PM]: good idea ThinRedKitty [10:58 PM]: henry ford mo def JamesShrugged [10:59 PM]: hehe JamesShrugged [10:59 PM]: silly ThinRedKitty [10:59 PM]: I love my car (>_<) ThinRedKitty [10:59 PM]: I love driving ThinRedKitty [10:59 PM]: k brb JamesShrugged [10:59 PM]: k ThinRedKitty [11:01 PM]: k bac k JamesShrugged [11:01 PM]: cool ThinRedKitty [11:02 PM]: Gotta write my Jap journal ThinRedKitty [11:02 PM]: Im glad my new laptop has japanese font ThinRedKitty [11:02 PM]: Makes it easier JamesShrugged [11:02 PM]: don't you find it curios that when a country socializes an industry, all the best people in that field quit or leave to another country? JamesShrugged [11:02 PM]: cool deal ThinRedKitty [11:03 PM]: Whatcha mean? JamesShrugged [11:05 PM]: like britain JamesShrugged [11:06 PM]: when they socialized medicine all the doctors went to america ThinRedKitty [11:06 PM]: hahaha ThinRedKitty [11:06 PM]: Yeah, people get concerned about elsewhere JamesShrugged [11:06 PM]: and soviet russia had to close it borders to keep people from leaving ThinRedKitty [11:06 PM]: lol ThinRedKitty [11:08 PM]: Im gettin out of here ThinRedKitty [11:08 PM]: hehee ThinRedKitty [11:08 PM]: I hope I like overseas ThinRedKitty [11:08 PM]: I like my culture, but I also like others JamesShrugged [11:10 PM]: brb ThinRedKitty [11:10 PM]: k JamesShrugged [11:13 PM]: i'm gonna stay and fight it JamesShrugged [11:13 PM]: the governmant is man made, and nothing that is man made is immuatable JamesShrugged [11:14 PM]: immutable* ThinRedKitty [11:15 PM]: its storming bad here now JamesShrugged [11:15 PM]: it moved through here already JamesShrugged [11:15 PM]: where are you at? ThinRedKitty [11:16 PM]: Fayetteville ThinRedKitty [11:16 PM]: I live in campus apartments JamesShrugged [11:16 PM]: oh cool ThinRedKitty [11:17 PM]: Theyre the cheapest ThinRedKitty [11:17 PM]: Also, I hate Dorm life ThinRedKitty [11:17 PM]: Dorms are more expensive, and they force you to be on a meal plan ThinRedKitty [11:17 PM]: So I opted for a ugly apartment JamesShrugged [11:17 PM]: oh really? ThinRedKitty [11:18 PM]: But the ugly apartment is MUCH better JamesShrugged [11:18 PM]: i can imagine ThinRedKitty [11:18 PM]: I love having my OWN place JamesShrugged [11:22 PM]: oh you really like movies dont you? ThinRedKitty [11:29 PM]: YES ThinRedKitty [11:29 PM]: Sorry took me so long JamesShrugged [11:29 PM]: its ok ThinRedKitty [11:29 PM]: My Sister was talking to me JamesShrugged [11:29 PM]: have you seen the fountain head JamesShrugged [11:30 PM]: tell her i said "hi" JamesShrugged [11:30 PM]: fountainhead* ThinRedKitty [11:30 PM]: No ThinRedKitty [11:30 PM]: k ThinRedKitty [11:30 PM]: I will ThinRedKitty [11:30 PM]: Is it indie movie? JamesShrugged [11:31 PM]: mm i dont think so JamesShrugged [11:31 PM]: it is in black and white ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: Oh neato! ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: I like black and white JamesShrugged [11:32 PM]: it is based on ayn rands bestseller and she wrote the script and supervised the production ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: Like The Man Who Wasnt There ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: by the Coens JamesShrugged [11:32 PM]: i haven't seen it ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: Its GREAT ThinRedKitty [11:32 PM]: Billy Bob THortnon JamesShrugged [11:33 PM]: ill have JamesShrugged [11:33 PM]: when was it produced? JamesShrugged [11:33 PM]: have to check it out* ThinRedKitty [11:34 PM]: maybe late 90s early 2000 ThinRedKitty [11:34 PM]: Every song in there is Beethoven ThinRedKitty [11:34 PM]: and its really kinda a calm movie JamesShrugged [11:34 PM]: TF was produced in the 40's i think or the 50's ThinRedKitty [11:35 PM]: okay ThinRedKitty [11:35 PM]: I will check it out ThinRedKitty [11:35 PM]: May be hard to find?? JamesShrugged [11:36 PM]: umm it is at the fort smith public library ThinRedKitty [11:37 PM]: k ThinRedKitty [11:38 PM]: im taking lots of new stuff next semester JamesShrugged [11:38 PM]: really? like what? ThinRedKitty [11:38 PM]: middle east culture ThinRedKitty [11:39 PM]: geographical info systems JamesShrugged [11:39 PM]: i really dislike middle eastern culture JamesShrugged [11:39 PM]: especially islam JamesShrugged [11:40 PM]: i think it is an even worse religion than christianity ThinRedKitty [11:40 PM]: i like islam better than christianity JamesShrugged [11:40 PM]: really? JamesShrugged [11:40 PM]: at least christianity has been a little westernized ThinRedKitty [11:40 PM]: thats bad lol JamesShrugged [11:40 PM]: islam is all about oppression of women and control of everyones lives JamesShrugged [11:41 PM]: i mean it is a little more civil than islam ThinRedKitty [11:41 PM]: hmm not so much ThinRedKitty [11:41 PM]: i mean true islam isnt so bad as culturalized' ThinRedKitty [11:42 PM]: Its a womans choice to wear hijab [headscarf] JamesShrugged [11:42 PM]: i read a report about Iran where the religious police wouldn't let 7 little girls out of a burning building because they weren't wearing their veils ThinRedKitty [11:42 PM]: And the ideals of Woman in westernized society are oppressive as well ThinRedKitty [11:43 PM]: yeah in the Middle East cultural Islam is bad JamesShrugged [11:43 PM]: maybe in christian, but not secular culture JamesShrugged [11:43 PM]: plus the suicide bombers...because they believe in heaven ThinRedKitty [11:43 PM]: but there are other non Islamic cultures that are worse ThinRedKitty [11:44 PM]: And most Muslims are not Arabs ThinRedKitty [11:44 PM]: Most are Indonesians JamesShrugged [11:44 PM]: maybe but none of them have a billion followers like islam ThinRedKitty [11:44 PM]: Indonesia is the biggest Muslim nation in the World JamesShrugged [11:44 PM]: true ThinRedKitty [11:44 PM]: percentage wise Arabs make up about 20 percent JamesShrugged [11:45 PM]: weird ThinRedKitty [11:45 PM]: Im also taking Latin American Politics JamesShrugged [11:46 PM]: ick JamesShrugged [11:46 PM]: latin america: the sewr of socialism JamesShrugged [11:47 PM]: sewer* ThinRedKitty [11:47 PM]: I wanna be smarter! JamesShrugged [11:47 PM]: JamesShrugged [11:47 PM]: they are interesting topics ThinRedKitty [11:49 PM]: yep! JamesShrugged [11:50 PM]: my favorites are philosophy, psychology and american history JamesShrugged [11:50 PM]: i remember when i first saw you in sociology... JamesShrugged [11:50 PM]: it seems like a very long time ago ThinRedKitty [11:51 PM]: I love Philosophy! JamesShrugged [11:52 PM]: you were the coolest person in college JamesShrugged [11:53 PM]: yeah i want to write for the ayn rand institute someday about philosophy ThinRedKitty [11:53 PM]: awww ThinRedKitty [11:53 PM]: Thanks! ThinRedKitty [11:53 PM]: You were too JamesShrugged [11:53 PM]: until then i am starting an online magazine of reviews of popular culture from a philosophic perspective JamesShrugged [11:53 PM]: thank you ThinRedKitty [11:54 PM]: ahhh gimme example! JamesShrugged [11:56 PM]: i haven't written any yet, i'm a terrible procrastinator JamesShrugged [11:57 PM]: i was actually thinking of watching walking tall and reviewing it right after i eat JamesShrugged [11:57 PM]: i think it is my favorite modern movie ThinRedKitty [11:57 PM]: I havent seen ThinRedKitty [11:57 PM]: WHats it about JamesShrugged [11:57 PM]: its about a man who won't compromise JamesShrugged [11:58 PM]: he goes to the army and comes back to find his town has been taken over by drug dealers and corrupt cops with a casino and he takes them out JamesShrugged [11:58 PM]: he just never compromises what he believe is right ThinRedKitty [11:59 PM]: Ahhh ThinRedKitty [11:59 PM]: I remember ThinRedKitty [11:59 PM]: the Rock?? JamesShrugged [11:59 PM]: yeah JamesShrugged [11:59 PM]: i thkn he was very good for the role JamesShrugged [11:59 PM]: think* ThinRedKitty [11:59 PM]: yeah I wanted to see it JamesShrugged [12:00 AM]: what i really want to do besides review movies i like is review whatever is the bestseller of the week JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: and one bestseller book and album for the month ThinRedKitty [12:01 AM]: You should read Haruki Murakami JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: and that will make each issue ThinRedKitty [12:01 AM]: He is my favorite author ever JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: 4 movie reviews, a book review, and an album review JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: until there are more people than just me doing it JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: i've never heard of him JamesShrugged [12:01 AM]: what does he write? ThinRedKitty [12:02 AM]: Hmmm its called Magical Realism ThinRedKitty [12:02 AM]: his style is JamesShrugged [12:02 AM]: what does that mean? ThinRedKitty [12:03 AM]: Well, it means that it is EXTREMELY realist, with a mystery ThinRedKitty [12:03 AM]: and the mystery involves weird supernatural occurences JamesShrugged [12:04 AM]: oh JamesShrugged [12:04 AM]: that sounds pretty neat ThinRedKitty [12:04 AM]: The last one was about a Wild Sheep CHase ThinRedKitty [12:04 AM]: He was searching for this Special Sheep, because some company blackmailed him ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: And they said we will shut your company down if you dont comply to find this special sheep JamesShrugged [12:05 AM]: hehe ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: the sheep had a star on it ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: And he found out that sheep was like an alien sheep, it would inhabit a person like a parasite ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: To fulfill something, but didnt know what ThinRedKitty [12:05 AM]: If the sheep decided to leave the persons body, they felt hopeless and empty ThinRedKitty [12:06 AM]: like part of their soul was ripped out JamesShrugged [12:06 AM]: wierd ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: yeah its strange ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: Reading his stories makes you feel kinda depressed about Life in general ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: But usually outcome isnt HAPPY, but makes you feel neither happy nor sad ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: Nor apathetic ThinRedKitty [12:07 AM]: Just kinda content JamesShrugged [12:07 AM]: hmmm ThinRedKitty [12:08 AM]: i like realism ThinRedKitty [12:08 AM]: my fave JamesShrugged [12:08 AM]: ayn wrote romantic realism ThinRedKitty [12:08 AM]: neato JamesShrugged [12:08 AM]: its my favorite JamesShrugged [12:09 AM]: there are only a few authors who do it anymore JamesShrugged [12:09 AM]: a famous one was victor hugo ThinRedKitty [12:09 AM]: ahhh yeah JamesShrugged [12:09 AM]: the hunchback of notre dame ThinRedKitty [12:09 AM]: I like Modern JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]: i can't believe you haven't read any of Miss Rands fiction ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: I knowww ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: I will ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: Hey I gtg study ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: Nice talking you!!! JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]: alright JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]: i was very nice talking to you again amelia JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]: goodnight ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: hehee thanks James! ThinRedKitty [12:10 AM]: ciao! JamesShrugged [12:10 AM]: ThinRedKitty signed off at 12:10 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenstauffer Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 ThinRedKitty [10:37 PM]:Â ME TOO! Argument by capitalization. ThinRedKitty [10:52 PM]:Â lol ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]:Â brb Argument by abbreviation ThinRedKitty [10:54 PM]:Â nm, my roommie in tha bathroom Argument by urination. Now you're guilty.... The worst one of all... JamesShrugged [10:54 PM]:Â Argument by smiley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the tortured one Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 recently i was having a debate with an old friend of mine about government programs like welfare, and she said "well, i can't say anything against government programs because my mom was really poor and we wouldn't have had anywhere to live or anything to eat if it hadn't been for the government" I really didn't know what to say to this except, "well maybe your mom would have had enough money if the government did tax 25% from each check.." how could this argument be classified, and what is the proper response? Any government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul. I mean, if they throw enough money at the situation, I am sure at least some of it goes to help people. It doesn't change the fact that how the government obtained the money was immoral. as for arguing against the person with emotional ties, ask them why their mother was poor in the first place. Find out what happened. Ask them why their mother couldn't get a job to earn a living. More often than not, it's government interference that stifles growth and destroys jobs. Explain that in addition to the 25% that was stolen from her every year, explain to her that things like minimum wage laws and regulatory jobs typically have the opposite desired effect. I find people who were helped by the government tend to be it's most ardent supporters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeganSnow Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 (edited) Any government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul. Not if Paul has any sense, it can't. Because then he knows that it will rob HIM to pay Peter the next day. P.S. I edited the topic title for spelling. Edited April 12, 2005 by JMeganSnow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilgoretrout Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 I think there might be something seriously wrong with that girl... "I don't really like chocolate".... you might want to have her head checked out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby66 Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Argument from ancedote, or personal experience. I would respond by pointing out that her same argument could be said by a white southern slave owner to defend slavery. "well, I can't say anything against slavery because I was really poor and I wouldn't have had any money if it hadn't been for the cheap slave labor" Ingenious! It not only points out the immorality, but does so by illuminating the fact that others are being made slaves by the government, principally just as in slavery. Any advocate of socialism that condemns slavery will be provoced by this and forced to reflect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Som Guy Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Sometmes you just need to say that if the person cannot support themselves without the goverment's help they really shouldn't be alive. You can't be reluctant to say that if someone cannot create the means for thier continued existance they will and should die. All this country gives you is a right to life, not the means for it. This does mean that people will die, but only people who cannot live by thier own ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby66 Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Sometmes you just need to say that if the person cannot support themselves without the goverment's help they really shouldn't be alive. You can't be reluctant to say that if someone cannot create the means for thier continued existance they will and should die. All this country gives you is a right to life, not the means for it. This does mean that people will die, but only people who cannot live by thier own ability. But could you uphold that your view if you some day turned blind and deaf by desease or if you were born this way? You couldn't create the means for your existance and would or should die then, as you are saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skap35 Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 But could you uphold that your view if you some day turned blind and deaf by desease or if you were born this way? You couldn't create the means for your existance and would or should die then, as you are saying. If that were my fate then I would hope someone would help me. But I would have no right to force others to help me. Most rational people are compassionate enough to help others when they can...without being forced to do so through welfare programs. I would be perfectly willing to *voluntarily* help such a person but if I choose not to give up some of my personal property (money, food, etc...) to help the person then that is nobody's business but my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Standard Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 I can't say anything against armed robbery, because I wouldn't have anywhere to live or anything to eat if it wasn't for jumping trains. Or getting the government to do it for me? "well, i can't say anything against government programs because my mom was really poor and we wouldn't have had anywhere to live or anything to eat if it hadn't been for the government" how could this argument be classified, and what is the proper response? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Standard Posted June 5, 2005 Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 if it wasn't for jumping trains. Oops, I meant to say "holding up trains," like Butch Cassite used to do. Jumping trains is just stowing away on a train without paying for it. Still immoral, but not as powerful of an analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesConnolly Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 recently i was having a debate with an old friend of mine about government programs like welfare, and she said "well, i can't say anything against government programs because my mom was really poor and we wouldn't have had anywhere to live or anything to eat if it hadn't been for the government" I really didn't know what to say to this except, "well maybe your mom would have had enough money if the government did tax 25% from each check.." how could this argument be classified, and what is the proper response? Hello, I'm new here. This seemed like a nice play to do a first post, so here goes: The proper response to that argument would be that she wouldn't be poor if it wasn't for the government. You see, the existence of a government breeds dependance upon it by it's constituents - the 'power' of a government doesn't rest in the authority vested in it by its population, but rather the amount of exploitation that allows those in 'authority' to assume a type of control over the masses. The government leaders have the money and control more or less how that money is appropriated to the people, so therefore the people depend on the government and more or less bend to its will. But there's a major problem with that, as is apparent in the amount of poverty and corruption that plagues the nation. Why are their poor people? Why is there corruption? The answer lies in the nature of the system: when life is reduced down to a commodity, which must then be bought back from those who stole it by those from whom it was taken; when competition is the leading factor in the drive of a worker; when success and wealth are measured in terms of production and consumotion - when these things are the very essence of a thing, then there will be two major poles in society. On one hand, you have those who directly benefit from the wealth produced. They are the landlords, the CEO's, the business managers, the stock brokers, etc. On the other hand, you have those who suffer because of the accumulation of wealth into the minority of the population. Among these you have the miners, the welders, the area managers, and all-in-all the common working class person who slaves away day to day for another person, producing a vast amount of wealth of which only a small portion will be allotted to him or her. And what's more, the existence of these government systems, while some may argue that they seem to alleviate certain circumstances of pain and poverty, really serve the purpose of those in power. Welfare keeps the poor poor. Food stamps keep the hungry hungry. All the while, some rich bureaucrat is living it up in a mansion somewhere, enjoying his/her payraise and taxcut, sucking the life out of each and every one of us. So how should you respond to your friend? By explaining the inherent corruption of a system whose very existence perpetuates that corruption, and from there working to find a solution. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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