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How many masks do you wear?

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8 hours ago, Harrison Danneskjold said:

Huddling in our homes and only venturing outside to collect our welfare handouts is not living; it's just not-dying. 

 

"We The Dying", perhaps? ;)

To be taken as metaphor, but "better to die on your feet than to live on your knees". As the character Kira showed.

I only caution to pick your fights carefully. I'm afraid this is one that no one can immediately win against the weight of 'public opinion' (emotions). Live to fight another day.

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This discussion has been rather far removed from the fundamental principles regarding man’s rights, and has focused instead on notions of aggression, spreading (versus other means), sensory inputs, af

https://youtu.be/ssvSsMqTtjo Kibbe on Liberty: Pandemic imprisoning and the culture war. Perspectives from Britain and the USA. Great conversation.

I wear one when required, out of respect for the fact that a private business is required to enforce the mandate. I never decided on a consistent policy to use in situations where I have a choice. I g

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On 3/9/2021 at 9:52 PM, Harrison Danneskjold said:

And forbidding by law (by all the guns of the American government) that ANY healthy human being ever touch the stuff again; that's just fine???  Because in terms of essentials that is precisely what we are doing about this damnable disease.

A better analogy would be requiring anyone who works in a place that generates substantial amounts of peanut dust to clean up before leaving.

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On 3/9/2021 at 11:07 PM, Harrison Danneskjold said:

Have you stopped and asked yourself why Donald Trump happened at least once and perhaps twice if he runs again in 2024? 

There are various reasons why Donald Trump won, among them that a lot of people were mad about their economic situation, that a most people make decisions, especially political ones, emotionally, and that the Democrats want to do a hell of a lot more than make people wear masks.

On 3/9/2021 at 11:07 PM, Harrison Danneskjold said:

license to control anyone else's life

Requiring people to wear masks does not control their lives any more than requiring them to drive safely does.

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On 3/11/2021 at 5:03 AM, whYNOT said:

the whole mask business is fraught with guilt and fear. We've been taught that masks protect others better than oneself. The onus has been thrown onto one to care for others first.

There is a very big difference between refraining from endangering others and assuming responsibility for them.  

The guilt and fear have more to do with general philosophical conditions than with the mask issue.

I wear masks out of prudence and respect for the rights of others, not for any emotional reason.

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13 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

There is a very big difference between refraining from endangering others and assuming responsibility for them.  

The guilt and fear have more to do with general philosophical conditions than with the mask issue.

I wear masks out of prudence and respect for the rights of others, not for any emotional reason.

That's you, not all others, and it amazes me you are unobservant of the general climate of fear, guilt and intimidation (psychological and 'moral') around wearing masks. Where the govt. forced lock downs, now that we are out of jail the public have taken over from them, from the big Nanny to many little nannies.

I've said before, nobody should put themselves in a position to be endangered (or for others to assume responsibility for).

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On 12/22/2020 at 12:15 PM, Tenderlysharp said:

How many masks do you wear?

I chose to present and ponder this topic as a Metaphysical and Epistemologcal exploration of identity.  

This thread is not so much to argue the benefits and safety of the mask.  Another thread seems to do a thorough job in favor of the mask: https://forum.objectivismonline.com/index.php?/topic/34048-rebloggedit-is-not-self-interest-to-take-illness-lightly/&tab=comments#comment-368272

I wear the mask every day, I had Covid in February, never been more sick in my life... I definitely don’t want my three grandmothers in their 90’s to die from it, and I miss hugging them terribly.  I've been seriously trying to figure out how I might be able to quarantine for two weeks just to have the privilege of being in the same room with each of them.  

You can submit to the mask and still hate it and still speak out against how dehumanizing it can be.  As well as give careful attention to the ways opportunistic power struggle groups seize upon fear.    

. . .

If you are faceless, what identity do you have?

You were having this illness in February 2020, if I've gotten this right. I attended the conference of the American Philosophical Association in that month in Chicago. I recall having a mask in my pocket and putting it on once during part of a session someone nearby was coughing quite a bit. I'm afraid we weren't yet really fully aware of the risk of the new germ in the air. That particular session was a packed room with overflow sitting on the floor. When I took the train home to Lynchburg, there was not yet any social distancing or masks against that particular infection. I hope you are having no bad effects by now.

I never got the infection, and we are being vaccinated now. The crummy thing I've noticed about wearing the mask at public places like the grocery store these many months, is the great obstacle it brings to full, sensitive communication to people you speak to, especially to friends you encounter. We can see only eye expressions to supplement voice. I don't think I realized before how important full visible face is to rich personal communication.

Nietzsche has a few wild thoughts on the subject: "Every profound spirit needs a mask: what's more, a mask is constantly growing around every profound spirit, thanks to the consistently false (which is to say shallow) interpretation of every word, every step, every sign of life he displays." (BGE 40)

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On 3/12/2021 at 4:26 PM, Doug Morris said:

Requiring people to wear masks does not control their lives any more than requiring them to drive safely does.

I really disagree for the same reasons I laid out earlier:

On 3/8/2021 at 5:36 PM, Harrison Danneskjold said:

Firstly, there's the question of whether you are in fact a carrier of the Wuhan Flu.  You'll notice that never comes up - because the assumption is that everyone could have it, because EVERY single one of us has either had it already or probably will have it, unless we're vaccinated first.  But if you've already had it then you are immune (at least to the specific strain you caught), cannot now be a carrier and have no good reason to wear a mask at all.

Secondly, one of the core assumptions in the AIDS analogy (and to any other disease that warrants such treatment) is that the other person would not have caught the disease otherwise.  And there is no conceivable way to apply such reasoning to the Wuhan Flu.  If you do not get vaccinated for it then you will catch it from someone, somewhere, eventually.  So it makes far less sense to hold any one person accountable for any specific transmission because if they didn't spread it, someone else certainly would have.

Thirdly, AIDS is a disease which might actually kill someone, at some point.  Imagine suing someone for giving you a rather nasty head cold that lasted all of a week!

Finally, even in the AIDS analogy there is the chance that after informing the other person of your disease they might still choose to sleep with you (IDK; maybe you're just that good-looking) in which case they've taken on the responsibility for any potential infection.  You can only be held guilty if you weren't up-front with everything you knew at the time.  And this REALLY breaks down when you remember the degree of individual autonomy we're allowed to have about potentially spreading the Wuhan Flu.

We're not being allowed to take whatever risks we personally, rationally consider appropriate, in any sphere of our lives.  We're being gagged and leashed "for our own safety" and that's that.

And that's specifically what's pissing me off.

https://covid19risktools.com:8443/riskcalculator

 

Requiring a mask in all situations for someone who actually has the Wuhan Flu is like requiring a condom at all times on a person who has AIDS.  The context of their own choices, and the individual choices of anyone for whom that would be relevant, are not relevant to our central planners; they simply must have one.

Requiring a mask in all situations for everyone, whether or not they have the disease (or are vaccinated or immune or secretly immortal or any conceivable thing) is like requiring a condom on everybody, at all times, because AIDS exists somewhere on Earth.

Doing so for AIDS would be much more understandable since AIDS is in fact a death sentence.  For the vast majority of the people who could physically contract this disease its consequences would be "a pretty bad cold; not much fun".

Even the OP who personally had it is fine now.  He said that it was extremely unpleasant but that it's over and I'd like to add that since he's immune now, there is no god damn reason for him to continue to wear a face-condom!

I cannot understate the extent of my disagreement with your statement!

 

And the specific reason is because you used the word "require".

I don't take the risks of this disease at all seriously and I do think the masks are stupid.  I think these are basically the correct opinions and I do have reasons for them.  Nonetheless, though, if you came up and asked me politely to put on my mask (particularly if you are an old person) then I would do it.  I'd still think it was stupid and I might say so, but as long as you used the words "please" and "thank you" I'd do it anyway, just because that's how I was raised.  But when you use the word "require" you can go straight to Hell.

 

On 3/12/2021 at 5:17 PM, Doug Morris said:

If someone comes up with a toothpaste that prevents COVID-19, I'm all for it.

We can agree on that, though.

I'd really love it if we could wipe this virus out entirely at some point.  It wouldn't have to serve any higher purpose; I just think it's one species we could be proud of having driven to extinction.

On 3/12/2021 at 6:29 AM, whYNOT said:

I only caution to pick your fights carefully. I'm afraid this is one that no one can immediately win against the weight of 'public opinion' (emotions). Live to fight another day.

Thank you.  I will be leaving this Hellhole eventually; hopefully it's before the next big scare.

 

Everything we just went through will happen again, though.  It's not like viruses stop evolving just because it's 2021 (and they aren't even the scariest kinds of things we might discover in the future) nor is it like anyone learned anything from what happened.  Hopefully I'll be in a better location whenever it does recur.

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On 3/13/2021 at 8:11 PM, Harrison Danneskjold said:

But if you've already had it then you are immune (at least to the specific strain you caught), cannot now be a carrier and have no good reason to wear a mask at all.

We don't know yet to what extent this is really true.

On 3/13/2021 at 8:11 PM, Harrison Danneskjold said:

Requiring a mask in all situations for someone who actually has the Wuhan Flu is like requiring a condom at all times on a person who has AIDS. 

Any time we are out in public we are breathing out material that other people can breathe in.  Breathing is very different from sex.

There is no requirement to wear a mask while alone at home.

 

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On 3/16/2021 at 4:16 PM, Doug Morris said:

We don't know yet to what extent this is really true.

We do.  That is how the human immunological system works.  Not every question has to be postponed until we can apply some sort of statistical analysis to it; if what we teach in high school biology classes is correct then we do know that is absolutely true.

The facts we're talking about here are ones I learned from watching the Magic School Bus almost three decades ago.  There's nothing new or controversial about it:

Once you've had a disease and recovered from it your body will remember how to build the antibodies to fight it if you ever catch it again.  It's actually being a bit too generous to call it high-school biology stuff, on second thought; my nine-year-old is fully capable of explaining how it works (also because of the Magic School Bus).

On 3/16/2021 at 4:16 PM, Doug Morris said:

There is no requirement to wear a mask while alone at home.

In the state of Minnesota there is a requirement to wear a mask while alone at work, regardless of what you're doing or your proximity to another living soul, which your employer is expected to enforce on you.

 

Why are you acting like we don't know how vaccines or natural immunity work?  We do.  I refuse to believe that you don't personally know it, too (you certainly sound like you passed high school too and I would bet it involved something about human biology) - what reason do you have for questioning what you damn well know already?

 

You know that you know this!!!!!

 

The Wuhan Flu is not magic!  It is no different from any other dumb virus!  It really does have to obey all the same laws as the rest of the universe (laws which we actually do know quite a bit about already); I promise!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system

I am sorry about this.

 

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3 hours ago, Harrison Danneskjold said:

We do.  That is how the human immunological system works. 

So you're saying any public statements to the contrary are lies or expressions of gross ignorance?

Why then are some people infected more than once?

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22 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

So you're saying any public statements to the contrary are lies or expressions of gross ignorance?

Why then are some people infected more than once?

Off the top of my head I would say lies; yes.

 

Do you know of any definite cases (with confirmed diagnoses) of anyone catching it twice?

If so then by what mechanism could such a thing be possible? There would have to be some reason why this particular virus doesn't have to obey the same laws that every other one does. If people were being reinfected (particularly after vaccination) then there should be a flurry of new research to try and square that with what we thought we knew about the immune system.

 

But I'm pretty sure that if you dig into any such stories you'll find that there is no such wild new flurry of research because the Wuhan Flu is not magic; you've simply been lied to.

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An article on the NC State University website, under Research and Innovation, titled Why Don’t Antibodies Guarantee Immunity?, indicates that the truth is more complicated than you say.  Are they lying?

An article on the Logo for WebMD website, titled Searching for Clues to COVID-19 Immunity, does the same and says explicitly that there have been reinfections.  Are they lying?

Similar statements are on bbc.com, washingtonpost.com, and narayanahealth.org.  Are they lying?  (Narayana Health operates 23 hospitals.)

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3 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

An article on the NC State University website, under Research and Innovation, titled Why Don’t Antibodies Guarantee Immunity?, indicates that the truth is more complicated than you say.  Are they lying?

An article on the Logo for WebMD website, titled Searching for Clues to COVID-19 Immunity, does the same and says explicitly that there have been reinfections.  Are they lying?

Similar statements are on bbc.com, washingtonpost.com, and narayanahealth.org.  Are they lying?  (Narayana Health operates 23 hospitals.)

Either that or they bought into a lie they heard themselves, yeah; that'd be my guess.

 

You have to know that this is not just a scientific issue.  It SHOULD just be a scientific issue (and people should be free to follow or disregard the science at their own peril) but since they're not you have to know it's not.

And it's not just that one side is taking a reasonable look at the data and forming measured conclusions while the other is just screaming "but my freedom!!!"  In the wider culture around us one side of this debate is Hell-bent on putting everyone in little plastic bubbles so that nobody will ever die again while the other is Hell-bent on (to be fair) coughing directly onto old people because they don't believe the disease even exists.

 

And here you and I are, trying to figure out what the actual truth is.  I think you're right to be looking at what the scientists think (that's precisely where I looked way back when this disease was first discovered) and maybe that will be the way we can settle this issue.  Have I mentioned that the CDC itself originally predicted that almost everyone will catch this extremely-infectious disease and that maybe a handful of us would actually die from it?

But what many scientists are saying right now contradicts everything they've been saying for many years now about the human immunological system.  I think you'll grant me that point, too (although it'd be much funnier if you didn't).  And because of that I'm not going to just accept that they're telling the truth NOW without having a chance to dive into the numbers for myself.

 

If you find some specific thing that you think will change my mind then you have my word I will take the time to read and reread and really chew on it properly.  Until then I am not going to scrap everything I currently know about human immunology, nor will I promise to scrap it after reading whatever you find; only to consider it.

 

But if your question is whether I'd be willing to call all those "scientists" liars; every medical expert that's currently weighing in publicly on the disease - yes.  We've got liars on both sides of this debate within the medical community.

 

You did hear about the Chinese "scientist" who very publicly announced that she'd been helping to develop the Wuhan Flu in a lab as a bioweapon, right?

The same disease with the mortality rate I've been mocking this whole time; it's such a miniscule thing to worry about.  That same thing - a WEAPON!  🤣

"Give me your wallet or I will make the next week slightly unpleasant for you and perhaps very unpleasant for your grandparents (although you'll all be fine again within a month)!  Mwahahahaha!!!"

So yeah; there are lying "scientists" all over all sides of this issue.

Edited by Harrison Danneskjold
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25 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

https://youtu.be/ssvSsMqTtjo

Kibbe on Liberty: Pandemic imprisoning and the culture war. Perspectives from Britain and the USA

Zuby noted how he liked to keep it real, as opposed to saying what he thought his audience might want to hear, and associated keeping it real as a contributing factor to his growing fan base. (around 20 minutes.)

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7 hours ago, merjet said:

I can sort of understand France being more restrictive, but not the UK. See the graphs of daily new cases: France, UK.

Or here, then add France.

I don't understand any of it.

 

I'm listening to the Podcast of the Lotus Eaters (with Sargon of Akkad) at least once every few days, so I think it's fair to say that I'm more up-to-date with British politics than most Americans.  To be honest, I don't really care about that in and of itself; it's just soothing to me to hear him take something insane, break down all the reasons why it is so and eventually state so.  I guess it reminds me that solipsism is not really the case.

That's not the only place I hear about current events.  Ben Shapiro, Yaron Brook and several others are my go-to for such things.  But when it comes to dissecting some unnecessarily-complicated piece of crap (which seems to be modern America's REAL surplus) which I don't have the time to figure out for myself I usually lean on the Lotus Eaters' dissection.

But based on what I've heard in that I really don't know why anyone is locked down anymore, in any country.

 

Come to think of it the John's Hopkins COVID19 mortality rate calculator perfectly backs up that opinion.  It starts out with dozens of disclaimers about how it's not meant to be taken seriously and if you have the Wuhan Flu you should go and see your doctor about it.

And I agree: if you personally are currently suffering from the Wuhan Flu then you should see your doctor about it.  But what's the point of even having such a mortality calculator if it cannot also be consulted about the risks involved?

I strongly encourage everyone who reads this to do precisely that.  Let me know what the odds of you dying are!

If I personally caught the Wuhan Pneumonia there would be a 0.0001% chance of my death from it.  And I'd call any risk that tiny entirely and universally not worth worrying about.  Which is why I have never (and currently still have not) taken such a risk even semi-seriously.

Edited by Harrison Danneskjold
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BTW I absolutely love the response of the Welsh pub-keepers.

"You're gonna declare our business illegal and shut us down?  Well YOU'RE not allowed any more booze from us ever again!"

I've been waiting to ask my own boss if I'm allowed to do likewise to the Dear Leader of Minnesota: Tim Walz!  Haven't gotten a good chance to ask yet.  But here's something!

 

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