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How many masks do you wear?

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How many masks do you wear?

I chose to present and ponder this topic as a Metaphysical and Epistemologcal exploration of identity.  

This thread is not so much to argue the benefits and safety of the mask.  Another thread seems to do a thorough job in favor of the mask: https://forum.objectivismonline.com/index.php?/topic/34048-rebloggedit-is-not-self-interest-to-take-illness-lightly/&tab=comments#comment-368272

I wear the mask every day, I had Covid in February, never been more sick in my life... I definitely don’t want my three grandmothers in their 90’s to die from it, and I miss hugging them terribly.  I've been seriously trying to figure out how I might be able to quarantine for two weeks just to have the privilege of being in the same room with each of them.  

You can submit to the mask and still hate it and still speak out against how dehumanizing it can be.  As well as give careful attention to the ways opportunistic power struggle groups seize upon fear.    

The Chinese Congress spent $2 Billion for covid in the U.S.  That is $40M in each state… Money from China is slave labor money.  The money seems to be spent on social media ad campaigns promoting their agenda. You can spot the underlying theme in a deluge of memes that try to alienate, belittle, polarize, dehumanize, take for granted, and intellectually cripple America for respecting freedom and success.

If you are faceless, what identity do you have?

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This discussion has been rather far removed from the fundamental principles regarding man’s rights, and has focused instead on notions of aggression, spreading (versus other means), sensory inputs, af

https://youtu.be/ssvSsMqTtjo Kibbe on Liberty: Pandemic imprisoning and the culture war. Perspectives from Britain and the USA. Great conversation.

I wear one when required, out of respect for the fact that a private business is required to enforce the mandate. I never decided on a consistent policy to use in situations where I have a choice. I g

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7 hours ago, Tenderlysharp said:

How many masks do you wear?

Just the one when it's required to enter a store or something.

7 hours ago, Tenderlysharp said:

If you are faceless, what identity do you have?

 

 

Edited by MisterSwig
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Faceless. As in one's mouth and nose obscured by a mask (as has been typically been observed.)

The opportunity to express one's self to others still transcends this protocol. At this stage, our eyes and ears are not obscured.

My daughter and her husband expressed the fact that they had likely contracted CoViD-19. The symptoms, thus far, have been relatively mild. She, being in the nursing field, indicated that her two boys were to develop their immunity to CoViD-19 over the Christmas holiday—should they contract it— changing the usual course of the last 15 years of our historical tradition of having gotten together for this holiday season.

I respect her decision, and conversely, she respects mine.

 

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What metaphysics? Nobody is in full contact with reality (poorly substituted by the pallid, rehashed 'reality' from TV and our e-devices), and what epistemology, anyway, where little rationality could be sustained in this non-real, under-active dream state? And what "identity", one's human, physical self-identity and 'other'-identity, that distinguishes one from the crowd - when individuality is hidden behind a face covering, you can't hardly recognize an acquaintance, struggle to hear their muffled voice and are not permitted to touch each other? If this infection were a plot hatched by an evil alien genius ;) to conquer Earth without resistance, he read human nature exactly right and will succeed. Many will give up freedom for a little bit of safety. You mean I need more than one mask, Tenderly!?

Edited by whYNOT
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This mask (etc...) debacle has ironically made me friendlier to the general populace. I wear a mask begrudgingly only as required by businesses, but I find myself being nicer and smiling genuinely more to people, whether they're wearing the muzzles themselves or not. I think friendliness is very important right now. However, I have no tolerance or sympathy for tattlers or do-gooders, and if they stop me they get a sharp dismissive reply.

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If it were only a matter of individual rational behavior, that's easy. How hard can it be to be courteous, amenable and aware of others or even of others' grandmas back at home? One doesn't derive moral kudos from these. (Many do). So one can be flexible to different situations where other people are. And of their rights. The trouble is (the non-issue of) masking is all to do with group behavior, on the macro scale, not one's own acts. Your life isn't your own to choose. What's expected, demanded and/or mandated from one for the sake of the general, abstract, 'other' and their well-being is paramount. By governments and 'society' pressure.

Predictable and evident, any citizen runs short of good will under these circumstances, and gets a resentful but vague sense of his sacrifice to others, particularly where his 'selfish' livelihood, etc., is being hurt - but lacks the necessary ethics to explain how morally right he is. 

Compulsory blanket masking and social distancing that over-ride one's personal assessments and choice, are just an extension of lockdowns. We are released on condition of good behavior, comparative to prisoners wearing ankle bracelets who know they can be returned to gaol at the least arbitrary slip. E.g. "Ten" are allowed to gather, but twelve? decreed unlawful and harmful by the science bureaucrats and politicos who calculate and enforce these things. Even these social metaphysicians reluctantly grasp that they need the economies to recover and -some- human activity to return. Sorry to be the grouch...  

Edited by whYNOT
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I wear one when required, out of respect for the fact that a private business is required to enforce the mandate. I never decided on a consistent policy to use in situations where I have a choice. I go for walks in a public park and don't wear one, even though it's required as far as I know, because no one is around to enforce. I'm not interested in wearing one without having a good medical reason to believe they actually work. If this premise were somehow proven, and this was communicated through a source I respect, I would be more interested in wearing one, but right now I feel like this is subjugation with unproven quackery at the hands of health authoritarians. 

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13 minutes ago, DavidOdden said:

One of the bizarrest forms of ovine behavior that I've seen is people driving all by themselves, wearing the diaper. I wonder if they are afraid of infecting themselves.

I sometimes put my mask on ahead of time, or leave it on in between times.  Why go to the extra trouble of taking it off and putting it on again?  Also, I have occasionally forgotten at first to put it on, and putting it on ahead of time is one way to prevent that.

I have tentatively decided that I will wear a mask for longer than Biden says, even if the only reason is to indicate that I don't blindly follow him.

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On 1/4/2021 at 3:48 PM, Doug Morris said:

I sometimes put my mask on ahead of time, or leave it on in between times.  Why go to the extra trouble of taking it off and putting it on again?  Also, I have occasionally forgotten at first to put it on, and putting it on ahead of time is one way to prevent that.

I have tentatively decided that I will wear a mask for longer than Biden says, even if the only reason is to indicate that I don't blindly follow him.

Indicate to whom?

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On 12/22/2020 at 7:16 PM, dream_weaver said:

Faceless. As in one's mouth and nose obscured by a mask (as has been typically been observed.)

The opportunity to express one's self to others still transcends this protocol. At this stage, our eyes and ears are not obscured.

My daughter and her husband expressed the fact that they had likely contracted CoViD-19. The symptoms, thus far, have been relatively mild. She, being in the nursing field, indicated that her two boys were to develop their immunity to CoViD-19 over the Christmas holiday—should they contract it— changing the usual course of the last 15 years of our historical tradition of having gotten together for this holiday season.

I respect her decision, and conversely, she respects mine.

 

It seems freedom twinkles around the edges... these moments where a person has the consciousness to show the rare benevolence that is still cherished in America.  

It was difficult worrying for my son when he had Covid last February.  I compare that initial worry with wondering if he was going to get it all year, and appreciate how we got it over with.  Our family has also been missing the usual get togethers, luckily my brother is building a large patio so we can catch up this spring.  Mutual respect is crucial for relationships, its good to see someone doing what they can with a difficult situation.  

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On 12/23/2020 at 6:13 AM, whYNOT said:

What metaphysics? Nobody is in full contact with reality (poorly substituted by the pallid, rehashed 'reality' from TV and our e-devices), and what epistemology, anyway, where little rationality could be sustained in this non-real, under-active dream state? 

This has been on my mind a lot lately.  It seems each person struggles in this dream state to a certain degree.  It looks like contact with reality takes a tremendous amount of time, effort, and the evolutionary advantage of a developed frontal cortex.  How do I describe the dawning I encountered when Ayn Rand gave me my first real taste of what reality might be... after spending thirty years of doing the best I could with the primitive tools I had.  

On 12/23/2020 at 6:13 AM, whYNOT said:

And what "identity", one's human, physical self-identity and 'other'-identity, that distinguishes one from the crowd - when individuality is hidden behind a face covering, you can't hardly recognize an acquaintance, struggle to hear their muffled voice and are not permitted to touch each other? 

What "identity"... identity as a man, as a romantic, as a fertile animal, as a brother, as a friend, as an internet acquaintance.  Man seems especially hungry for a hero of consciousness to access a path or foundation with resilience to weather the storm.  

On 12/23/2020 at 6:13 AM, whYNOT said:

If this infection were a plot hatched by an evil alien genius ;) to conquer Earth without resistance, he read human nature exactly right and will succeed. Many will give up freedom for a little bit of safety. 

Plague scares are not uncommon throughout history, what kind of mind has gotten through with more benevolence and freedom intact?  

On 12/23/2020 at 6:13 AM, whYNOT said:

You mean I need more than one mask, Tenderly!?

one of em has eyes as big as jolly ranchers.  I've been focusing on neural science and psychology lately.  Carl Jung's thoughts are interesting.  The ancient use of masks in culture to get a grip on negative emotion...  Halloween is our yearly tradition dressing up as our favorite boogie man to make fun of insecurities it seems.  

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I have several to match the clothes I wear. I have one with red-white-and-blue when I am in old GI clothes. I have one with constellations for when I have on an astronomy-theme T-shirt. I have one with a corporate logo that goes with the corporate polo shirts.

We should have been doing this all along, but we accepted it as normal that people could come to work sick and pass their germs along to others. In the old days before connectivity, that might have been an excuse: we have to show up at work and work is important to our livelihood and the clients and their customers. But even if that was the case mid-20th century, back before 1985, I got a catalog book of software developers and most of them reported 1 or 2 employees and company revenues of $50,000 or $100,000 per year and locations in small places all over. Shortly after that, I joined my first BBS. But some years earlier, I actually got a message across my terminal at one college from a friend a different college. So, we could have been doing this for decades. 

Four years ago, I worked for a software development firm that actually had a stay-home-when-sick policy. This guy came in sick. Two days later he was still sick and I said something to HR and they said, "Oh, we don't follow that. The policies are just written for us by another firm we hire." The next day he was out ... and so was the guy in the cubie next to his..

I believe that spreading germs should be actionable. They locked up Typhoid Mary without a trial. Well, maybe a trial should have been held. In her interview with Edward R. Murrow, Ayn Rand said that the government has a role to prevent intentional harm and does not need to wait for actual harm. It is something to consider in the development of objective law.

Edited by Hermes
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On 12/23/2020 at 7:18 AM, JASKN said:

I think friendliness is very important right now. However, I have no tolerance or sympathy for tattlers or do-gooders, and if they stop me they get a sharp dismissive reply.

The 'Do no harm, take no crap' approach is interesting.  Last year YouTube was repeatedly recommending a hostage negotiation masterclass, looking into it I discovered a... language within the language... that I have been spending the year learning.  It has absolutely evolved the way I approach conflict and difficult conversations.  I am starting to actually look forward to challenges.  I am kind of feeling like the 'shit head whisperer'.  

I watch a group called Utah Atheists who seem to be dominated by marxists shouting down every awkward individual who is newly questioning their faith in the conservative state.  The curious semi-atheist tries to see if its worth it to take a lonely jump from one community to another.  

After seeing hundreds of posts in support of twitters freedom by people who constantly post threads taxing the life out of business owners...  I started a thread about freedom of speech separate from the Trump debate and got a hundred people telling me to shut up and go away.  Understanding history is my incentive to engage.  The thought came that the aggression is a manifestation of volition, and not to take it personally.  If they want to use their freedom of speech to try to shame me into conceding on deeply meaningful issues, it won't work.  They have obviously never contemplated in depth.  Why let it take me for a ride?  

I remember Ayn Rand saying the rats will scatter at the first sound of a human step.  I could have handled some of my reaction better, my patience seems to have paid off, the group is loosening some restrictions.  If my words inspire a person who is uncomfortable but can't explain why, then I feel like I am not standing idly by letting my home be overrun with stupidity.  

What does this have to do with wearing masks.... to negotiate with a hostage taker, you spend the beginning of the conversation listening, mirroring, using tactical empathy, calibrated questions, to let the control freak feel like he is in control.  These skills are awkward at first and might feel like wearing a mask, but they can become integrated into your personality as an evolutionary approach.  A human will irrationally defend volition, letting him have it changes his brain chemistry and brings his higher reasoning online.  

Edited by Tenderlysharp
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On 1/18/2021 at 3:02 PM, Hermes said:

We should have been doing this all along,

How is it that a year ago it was much more common to feel derision toward germaphobes and hypochondriacs?  

Humans die without contact, I wouldn't trade anything for my 4 year old niece jumping my lap and giving me a kiss on the cheek with her booger face.  I get a tissue, clean up her face and tell her she is adorable.  A germ or virus is nothing compared to human consciousness.  Why teach children to feel overwhelming helplessness in the face of something you absolutely have the intelligence to adapt to?  

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On 1/19/2021 at 12:02 AM, Hermes said:

I believe that spreading germs should be actionable. They locked up Typhoid Mary without a trial. Well, maybe a trial should have been held. In her interview with Edward R. Murrow, Ayn Rand said that the government has a role to prevent intentional harm and does not need to wait for actual harm. It is something to consider in the development of objective law.

Next, in a totalitarian state, spreading ideas will be actionable. (Oh, wait ...) Is there a face mask to protect against a thought pandemic?

The irrational is the insane or the impossible, I believe Rand said, Michael.

Try to prove in court that it was my germs you caught off a door handle. Then, that it was my negligence or malice at fault.

If anyone wants, who and what stops them from going round masked their whole day and every day of their lives? Just leave me out.

Edited by whYNOT
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On 12/23/2020 at 6:13 AM, whYNOT said:

If this infection were a plot hatched by an evil alien genius ;) to conquer Earth without resistance, he read human nature exactly right and will succeed. Many will give up freedom for a little bit of safety. 

Thinking more about this.  If oppressive governments are pouring billions of dollars into "Anti-Human" social media ad campaigns to polarize all sides of the American political spectrum... are they getting their moneys worth?  Their approach works on their own people who are crushed by more than 50,000 years of slave mentality.  

What do they seem to be gaining as they vicariously dabble with the concept of free speech in America?  How do you get good at spotting the clever tricks of oppressors who think they can push the "empathy button" without actually feeling it?

The empathy center in your brain expands in proportion to the freedom of volition in your surrounding area.  This is why the difficulty and solitude of colder climates produce a greater percentage of independent, resilient, and benevolent individuals.  Native Americans had 10,000 years of much greater volition to spread out.  Early slave traders were perplexed at how impossible it is to violate a Native American's volition.  

In each oppressed person there is an oppressor who believes that accepting subversion will make them part of something stronger.  Americans seem to love the underdog as a celebration of volition.  How do you temper your empathy to free the oppressed with understanding that the responsibility of freedom is overwhelmingly horrifying to those who have been punished their whole lives for any attempt to think for themselves?  

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"That’s why the quality of your mask is more important than ever. You can read about the latest research urging a well-fitted two- or three-layer mask. Or you can keep the masks you’ve been using and just double-mask when you go to the store or find yourself spending time with people from outside your household" (link).

More about double-masking.

 

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49 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Next, in a totalitarian state, spreading ideas will be actionable.

There is a very big difference between spreading ideas and spreading germs.  But most people don't understand the difference well enough.

52 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Try to prove in court that it was my germs you caught off a door handle. Then, that it was my negligence or malice at fault.

That's not the point.  The point is whether not wearing a mask endangers others enough to rise to the level of physical aggression.

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