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Have any prominent Objectivists addressed this point II?

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2 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

This man is greatly exaggerating.

We need to be rational about exactly what restrictions to impose.  It doesn't help any that there is a lot of irrationality on both sides.

DM, This man can see way past the simple incident. He can reason from -this- to *that*.  From: a small business (illegally) imposed upon by the state to turn an ordinary employee into a policeman checking 'papers' at the door, making a most commonplace outing a harassment for customers. To: the theft of rights by our govt's for everybody. And businesses losing too.

He's rightfully and rationally angry. As would anyone who prizes the principle of liberty.

If you abstract from that one sample to the millions of times this same officiousness is happening every minute in the world ...what do you think the outcome is to human lives?

We need to "be rational" of course; without reasoning the statement is meaningless.

The virtue of Rationality means the recognition and acceptance of reason as one’s only source of knowledge, one’s only judge of values and one’s only guide to action.

 

Edited by whYNOT
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20 hours ago, tadmjones said:

What exactly are the ‘sides’?

The side that thinks that vaccines should be required to at least some extent in at least some cases and the side that thinks they should never be required.  Some people might want to draw the line differently; perhaps it would be better to say that there are more than two sides.

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1 hour ago, Doug Morris said:

The side that thinks that vaccines should be required to at least some extent in at least some cases and the side that thinks they should never be required.  Some people might want to draw the line differently; perhaps it would be better to say that there are more than two sides.

I doubt if anyone could argue that vaccines should never be required. The question is by whom in what venue.

Privately they can be required.

The argument is against a mandate that everyone should get a vaccine or be incarcerated.

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1 hour ago, Doug Morris said:

The side that thinks that vaccines should be required to at least some extent in at least some cases and the side that thinks they should never be required.  Some people might want to draw the line differently; perhaps it would be better to say that there are more than two sides.

Fair enough, consider me in the first camp. I think given proper consideration of the populations’ risk of/ from disease, requirements for inoculation would/could be a rational response. ‘Public’ safety and health would be an overriding concern , based on the idea that unnecessary risk can/should be curtailed.

I’m not convinced the current slate of covid vaccines are provably as save and effective ‘enough’  to be considered necessarily safe so that their requirement , itself, isn’t , itself, an unnecessary risk , the thing the principle is trying to avoid. 

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19 hours ago, tadmjones said:

Fair enough, consider me in the first camp. I think given proper consideration of the populations’ risk of/ from disease, requirements for inoculation would/could be a rational response. ‘Public’ safety and health would be an overriding concern , based on the idea that unnecessary risk can/should be curtailed.

I’m not convinced the current slate of covid vaccines are provably as save and effective ‘enough’  to be considered necessarily safe so that their requirement , itself, isn’t , itself, an unnecessary risk , the thing the principle is trying to avoid. 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ontario-er-doctor-resigns-over-mandatory-vaccines-and-falsehoods/

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The article headline focuses on "Kilian estimated that 80 percent of the patients she saw in the ER during the past month who had inexplicable symptoms were 'double vaxxed.'"  But there's no way to know what to make of this without knowing what percent of all the patients she had seen in the ER during the past month were 'double vaxxed.'

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On 10/5/2021 at 10:23 PM, Doug Morris said:

The side that thinks that vaccines should be required to at least some extent in at least some cases and the side that thinks they should never be required.  Some people might want to draw the line differently; perhaps it would be better to say that there are more than two sides.

 

 

Edited by whYNOT
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None of what your latest video says is relevant to my key point, although it might be relevant to exactly how we implement it.  Yet again, my key point is that refusal to mask or to vaccinate increases the risk of spreading disease, and that this may rise to physical force.

To clarify my position on some of the points raised in the video: 

I disapprove of demonizing people for not getting vaccinated.

I disapprove of anyone on any side of any issue letting their emotions do their thinking for them.

I am well aware that our society has many problems that trace back to bad philosophy leading people astray.

I am well aware that government does a lot of things it shouldn't do.

One example of egregious bad government action is the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, which contributed greatly to mistrust of both government and healthcare, especially among blacks.

Another example of egregious bad government action is restricting immigration, which is a violation of rights with many destructive consequences.  One of these consequences is forcing some people into a legal limbo which makes many things wrongfully difficult.

Perhaps not quite as egregious, but definitely a wrongful government action which makes possible many kinds of abuse, is setting up social security numbers and effectively forcing people to use them as a universal identifier.

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DM all anyone has to take from basic Objectivism, is that any deviation from individual rights, that is the free will of an individual to act in his favor (or not) has one outcome, the anti-concept, 'collective rights', where 'groups' compete to get government favor/power on their sides. The rest follows, either way. The two approaches of groupist competition anyone is familiar with: a) those 'others' are inferior or stupid people and must be shunned, condemned or worse b). those 'others' oppressed 'us' in the past and must be suppressed and shunned now for punishment and 'compensation'. There we get sacrifices forced by group on group; or "altruism-collectivism".

The vaxx fascists as I think of some like these CNN presenters, manipulate every angle. Lemon plainly indicates his feeling of superiority over 'those' people and he further believes he has the moral righteousness on his side from ancestral racial victimhood. He is an "egregious" collectivist and tribalist very pleased to foster one more group division - vaxxers from unvaxxers - so to politicize the issue. This is a preview of socialist control, brought about by pitting tribe on tribe, and why one has to insist on individual rights of choice (in this case and every case) for vaccination, not merely 'permitted' as a dispensation but actively fought for.

It's only in the absence of 'group rights' (and the subsequent controls) that that one can contemplate open immigration. That's the context you drop. In the mean time, with individual rights not what they should be in the States (assuredly worse elsewhere), the rights of the present citizens take precedence.

Edited by whYNOT
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12 hours ago, whYNOT said:

DM all anyone has to take from basic Objectivism, is that any deviation from individual rights, that is the free will of an individual to act in his favor (or not) has one outcome, the anti-concept, 'collective rights', where 'groups' compete to get government favor/power on their sides. The rest follows, either way. The two approaches of groupist competition anyone is familiar with: a) those 'others' are inferior or stupid people and must be shunned, condemned or worse b). those 'others' oppressed 'us' in the past and must be suppressed and shunned now for punishment and 'compensation'. There we get sacrifices forced by group on group; or "altruism-collectivism".

The vaxx fascists as I think of some like these CNN presenters, manipulate every angle. Lemon plainly indicates his feeling of superiority over 'those' people and he further believes he has the moral righteousness on his side from ancestral racial victimhood. He is an "egregious" collectivist and tribalist very pleased to foster one more group division - vaxxers from unvaxxers - so to politicize the issue. This is a preview of socialist control, brought about by pitting tribe on tribe, and why one has to insist on individual rights of choice (in this case and every case) for vaccination, not merely 'permitted' as a dispensation but actively fought for.

There are evil people and misguided people on both sides of every issue.  They all tend to push us into some form of mysticism, altruism, collectivism, and statism.  In order to decide issues rationally we must get past them.

Again you ignore my key point, which I have repeatedly stated.

12 hours ago, whYNOT said:

It's only in the absence of 'group rights' (and the subsequent controls) that that one can contemplate open immigration. That's the context you drop. In the mean time, with individual rights not what they should be in the States (assuredly worse elsewhere), the rights of the present citizens take precedence.

Two wrongs do not make a right.  The existence of 'group rights' thinking (and the subsequent controls) does not justify violating people's rights to freedom of movement, production, and trade.  However, it might be appropriate to require that people pay taxes in this country for a certain period of time and/or up to a certain amount before they can benefit from such things as welfare and affirmative action.

 

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On 10/5/2021 at 2:50 PM, tadmjones said:

Fair enough, consider me in the first camp. I think given proper consideration of the populations’ risk of/ from disease, requirements for inoculation would/could be a rational response. ‘Public’ safety and health would be an overriding concern , based on the idea that unnecessary risk can/should be curtailed.

Tad, you'll have to elaborate on this.

I just can't imaging a scenario where the government EVER has the right to put a gun to your head and inject something in your body without your consent.

I can imagine a person being forced to stay at home but not the injection.

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49 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

Tad, you'll have to elaborate on this.

I just can't imaging a scenario where the government EVER has the right to put a gun to your head and inject something in your body without your consent.

I can imagine a person being forced to stay at home but not the injection.

Re the definition of requirement in this thread.

There is no governmental right to forced injection , but in the guise of public health ,participation can be dependent on having received a specific inoculation. Eg enrollment in public/govt schools. Though I believe there would also be a concomitant rationale for exemptions and or accommodations.

In addition, I do not think the Wuflu raises to a level that warrants these measures, I’m commenting on the  discussion centered on the abstract principles of the OP.

Like Rand I think quarantining of actively infected/contagious is a rational safety response , but forced injection is the obliteration of autonomy.

Edited by tadmjones
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  • 4 weeks later...
15 hours ago, tadmjones said:

Speaking of Italy, they revised their  pandemic death toll severely downward from 138k to 4K to reflect the number that died from covid as opposed to with it.

A USA Today fact check says this is not true.  An editorial claimed the death toll should be about 4K, but the Italian authorities have not changed their count.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/9/2021 at 10:59 PM, tadmjones said:

Like Rand I think quarantining of actively infected/contagious is a rational safety response , but forced injection is the obliteration of autonomy.

For your second statement, inarguable. The rights to one's own body and the choice of what physically enters it. Without physical autonomy there's no independence of any kind and the loss of rights, present and future. To recap, the injection apparently provides some, imperfect, level of safety for the (willing and needing) recipient; incapable, as we have seen, to eradicate transmissions and viral mutations . Which makes unconscionable the "forced" vaccination of children and teens - they, a huge majority of them, don't need it, and gain nothing but a higher risk of potential, future health problems, a risk higher than contracting the virus itself.. Under the bureaucrats' hypocritical pretext of 'protecting' them, they are primarily being jabbed to limit infection spread 'for the good of the society'. Their first taste of public sacrifice. Family autonomy too has been overridden with the individual's.

Not to add, that bulk of adults who aren't immuno-compromised and have had to go along to stay employed and have a proper life.

In her remarks it looks like Rand used quarantining in the tightly limited sense, like isolating a shipload of infected passengers or a small village for a few weeks, therefore under the Govts'. purview. One can infer her response to the forced mass 'quarantines' - and vaccinations - of entire populations where the infection has already spread.

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5 hours ago, whYNOT said:

incapable, as we have seen, to eradicate transmissions and viral mutations .

Does anybody claim eradication?  The point is that vaccination significantly reduces transmissions and viral mutations.

5 hours ago, whYNOT said:

to limit infection spread 'for the good of the society'

There are people talking that way, and they are wrong.  The relevant point is that we are protecting individuals.

 

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On 11/6/2021 at 10:43 AM, Doug Morris said:

A USA Today fact check says this is not true.  An editorial claimed the death toll should be about 4K, but the Italian authorities have not changed their count.

You’re right the USAToday fact check says 97.1% of the covid deaths in Italy were of those with comorbidities.

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On 11/20/2021 at 3:32 PM, Doug Morris said:

Does anybody claim eradication?  The point is that vaccination significantly reduces transmissions and viral mutations.

There are people talking that way, and they are wrong.  The relevant point is that we are protecting individuals.

 

I wrote "eradication of transmission". Not of the virus. "Protecting individuals"?

Quite. A more recent overt message from the mainstream experts and officials presses the effectiveness of vaccines for the individual's sake (reducing severity, etc., of infection) and that is broadly true enough. And vital for those who need it. That's a spot of disingenuousness on the part of officials now, belatedly appealing to one's own health selfishness as the motivation: towards the greater message - forced, blanket immunization, 95% they now estimate below, to maybe halt the pandemic spread and gain 'herd immunity' (also, over a year too late), and of course all the kids will need vaccines to begin to attain that target. To hell with one's personal preferences, self-evaluations and individual rights. Simple test, if spread-eradication is not their master plan, then they have no other motive for pressuring and forcing vaccination on those unneeding/unwanting  of it, is there? Supposedly, if the vaccine is so good, the unvaccinated are the only ones who should worry for their safety - right?

But 'breakthrough' infections will go on as they are now, from one vaxxed to the other vaxxed in the highly vaxxed places - and the vaccinations "wane" within a few months, requiring god knows how many more regular future booster shots. As this article's 'experts' like many admit finally, vaccines can't do it all. Perhaps more lockdowns?

What was the point of it all? This coercion, breeding and necessitating more force? The proof is mounting, total costs to general welfare and our liberties and results in societal upheavals have far outweighed the gains. The pandemic strategy has been mindless and immoral from the start.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjwlL36zqb0AhV9g_0HHWQ6D8AQ0PADKAB6BAg3EAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2021%2F11%2F19%2Feurope%2Feurope-covid-vaccination-rates-fourth-wave-cmd-intl%2Findex.html&usg=AOvVaw180YYZT1MyabFmPWE4ocbg

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1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

I wrote "eradication of transmission". Not of the virus.

I didn't say you wrote eradication of the virus.  You wrote eradication of transmission and of viral mutations, and I questioned whether anyone has claimed either, and I pointed out the point is significant reduction, not eradication.

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

to maybe halt the pandemic spread and gain 'herd immunity' (also, over a year too late)

Better late than never.

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

To hell with one's personal preferences, self-evaluations and individual rights. Simple test, if spread-eradication is not their master plan, then they have no other motive for pressuring and forcing vaccination on those unneeding/unwanting  of it, is there? Supposedly, if the vaccine is so good, the unvaccinated are the only ones who should worry for their safety - right?

Nonsense.  The purpose is not eradication of spread or of anything else, but significant reduction of spread and of the potential for viral mutation.

How good is "so good" and why are you trying to make an issue of it?  No one is claiming that vaccination completely eliminates anything.  It significantly reduces the chances of infection and spread.  In those cases where infection still takes place, it greatly reduces the risk of hospitalization and death.

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

vaccines can't do it all. Perhaps more lockdowns?

I am not advocating lockdowns, which are a much more drastic step.  The biggest reason vaccines have not accomplished as much as hoped is that a lot of people haven't gotten vaccinated.

Four excerpts from the article you linked:

 even small pockets of unvaccinated people can drive transmission. In Ireland's population of 5 million, around a million are still not protected.

 Ireland's deputy Prime Minister Leo Varadkar told CNN that unprotected people are "causing a lot of the trouble" -- and that Ireland "wouldn't be imposing the restrictions we are imposing now" if everyone was vaccinated.

The difference between vaccination rates of 70% and 80% is huge, experts say, because each extra percentile further isolates the virus and eases pressure on hospitals. But McConkey said that given the transmissibility of the current Delta variant, no country can truly consider themselves "highly vaccinated" -- he argued that until they inoculate a percentage in the mid-90s of their total population, unvaccinated pockets of society would still drive transmission.

Vaccines continue to dramatically reduce the likelihood of serious illness and death, he noted -- and they have therefore changed the make-up of those needing treatment in intensive care units. There are far fewer admissions than in previous waves, and "it's now mostly unvaccinated young people, or very elderly people,"

 

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1 hour ago, Doug Morris said:

  The biggest reason vaccines have not accomplished as much as hoped is that a lot of people haven't gotten vaccinated.

 

 

What was the hoped for accomplishment?

and as an aside , does anyone think the local CVS, Rite Aid Walmart jab clinic followed the rather precise storage and handling specifications of the Pfizer formulations? I have my doubts on the abilities of my local Rite Aid employees and I question if the facility has the proper equipment in good working order to be up to the task. I bet there is probably a significant failure rate given the mass distribution, which I would count as a plus.

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