Papers, Citizen! National Id Card Passes 100-0.

[neverborn]

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5702505.html

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/05/05/11/01192...172%26tid%3D219

http://www.dailybulletin.com/Stories/0,141...2863429,00.html

If the act's mandates take effect in May 2008, as expected, Americans will be required to obtain federally approved ID cards with "machine readable technology" that abides by Department of Homeland Security specifications. Anyone without such an ID card will be effectively prohibited from traveling by air or Amtrak, opening a bank account, or entering federal buildings.

[Eric Mathis]

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5702505.html

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/05/05/11/01192...172%26tid%3D219

http://www.dailybulletin.com/Stories/0,141...2863429,00.html

If the act's mandates take effect in May 2008, as expected, Americans will be required to obtain federally approved ID cards with "machine readable technology" that abides by Department of Homeland Security specifications. Anyone without such an ID card will be effectively prohibited from traveling by air or Amtrak, opening a bank account, or entering federal buildings.

I guess this will prevent another 9/11. Oops, the 9/11 terrorists were in the U.S. legally. Maybe it help Uncle Sam cut down on the "cheaters" who aren't paying their fair share of big gummint.

[valjean]

Looks like I'll be needing a new home --- this idea is very scary for obvious reasons.

[scottkursk]

Anyone without such an ID card will be effectively prohibited from traveling by air or Amtrak, opening a bank account, or entering federal buildings.

Wow, that is a great idea. Such an incredibly important document. I bet nobody would even THINK of trying to copy one of those..... Anybody remember the MultiPass from the movie Fifth Element? The wise people in the government created an id that supplanted for our SS# cards, drivers licenses, passports etc. Bruce Willis' character remarks offhand "that way it makes it easier; we just have to fake 1 id now."

[Lemuel]

Right now, it's really hard not to listen to that little conspiracy theorist in the back of my head screaming "You see? Do you SEE!?"

Un-frikkin-believable.

So, when they make this mandatory for all citizens, and some decide the cause of true freedom is lost in the US and they've had enough, can moving overseas be properly defined as defection?

[BurgessLau]

Anyone without such an ID card will be effectively prohibited from traveling by air or Amtrak, opening a bank account, or entering federal buildings.

As usual, I am confused. The situation now is this: Without my present ID card (issued by the State of Oregon), I cannot travel by air or Amtrak, open a bank account, or enter a federal building.

So, what is the problem with the new national ID card? How is it essentially different from the ones now issued by individual states?

[valjean]

As usual, I am confused. The situation now is this: Without my present ID card (issued by the State of Oregon), I cannot travel by air or Amtrak, open a bank account, or enter a federal building.

So, what is the problem with the new national ID card? How is it essentially different from the ones now issued by individual states?

Has to do with seperation of powers. The states were intended to act as individual states--and that is ending. Plus, I trust my state alot more than I trust the national government.

In North Carolina there is no state ID--we just have driver's licenses. As far as I know. I would assume I'd have one if it existed.

[scottkursk]

As usual, I am confused. The situation now is this: Without my present ID card (issued by the State of Oregon), I cannot travel by air or Amtrak, open a bank account, or enter a federal building.

So, what is the problem with the new national ID card? How is it essentially different from the ones now issued by individual states?

It's not a national ID per se, but each state in order to be qualified to receive federal funding would be required to meet federal criteria. At this time, all that you need to open a bank or brokerage account is a social security number that we are required to run through TRW for a credit check and anti-terror database. You'll now have a "citizen number" that is unique to you. Of course, since we know how valuable uniquely identifiable federal id #'s are, we won't use your social security number, it will be an all new one. I'll bet your citizen id number replaces your ss number as check for your id when you call your bank etc. pretty quickly. (What are the last 4 digits....) But that is another issue entirely.

The way the law looks now, you may be required to present that national id with it's special new id number before you could open an account anywhere. Or travel. Or rent a car. Or do something related to terrorism like going to Home Depot and buying fertilizer. Or buy a gun. Or opening a bank account cross town from where you live. Or buying Actifed for that cold you have.

Actually, in all of the above I mention there are already federal programs that require businesses to report activitiy to the feds if you do things like buy fertilizer, sudafed, more than 1 firearm, too much fertilizer, etc. It's just that they aren't generally allowed to mention they are required to report you. Bet you didn't know that if you live far from a bank and open an account I am required to file a BSA report with the fed on you as a potential money launderer/terrorist? All the completely innocent things can be related to terrorist activities of building bombs or drugs. It's a way for the fed to track activity plain and simple.

It wouldn't bother me as much if they'd just come out and say "we are going to follow what you are going to do" but they say they are trying to prevent illegal immigration, fake voting, etc. since you'll be required to present this "uncopyable" id before doing anything. a) it's ludicrous to think nobody will copy them especially considering exactly how valuable they will become they really don't care about id theft.

If id theft, illegal immigration, etc was their real concern, they'd simply start enforcing the laws that say it's illegal to use someome else's social security # for employment, or using a fake id, or lying on a financial application. I know locally their was a hurly burl about some people that were fired for being illegal immigrants using someone else's social security #'s to work illegally. They were fired when they were discovered committing fraud. They successfully sued the school district for discrimination and got their jobs back. Mind you, they were knowingly using someone else's social security number which of course effected some innocent person's taxes, FICA, etc. but nobobdy seemed to care about that. Plus, none of the guys involved in 9/11 committed crimes really until they took over the planes and flew them into the buildings, so this new law is strictly about tracking people, not identity.

[neverborn]

Instead of controlling the borders, this is to stop illegal immigration? Laugh...

[scottkursk]

Tounge firmly planted in cheek and rather blatantly showing off my two years German from the Carter era:

For when they come to round up the producers like in Atlas Shrugged we can declare "Ich habe meine papiere aber trage kein Dollarzeichen auf meinem mantel!"

[BurgessLau]

In North Carolina there is no state ID--we just have driver's licenses.  As far as I know.  I would assume I'd have one if it existed.

Don't you use your driver's license for identification? Does NC offer an ID card to people who don't drive?

In Oregon, everyone may apply for either a driver's license or a so-called "Identification Card." On the front and back, the ID card says "Not a license to drive." There is an illogical implication that you can either have a driver's license or an identification card. In fact, everyone active in society here needs an identification card of some sort -- whether it is called a "driver's license" or an "identification card." They both are ID cards, but one also licenses you to drive certain kinds of vehicles.

I don't drive, so I have an ID card. Both cards have the same function: identification of the person, not only for the state but also for banks, apartment building owners, Amtrak, check cashers, and others.

If you drive the wrong way on a one-way street and a police officer stops you and asks for your DL, he isn't only trying to see whether you have a license. Mainly he wants to know who you are so he can check his online files to see if you are wanted for some infraction of the law.

[BurgessLau]

If the act's mandates take effect in May 2008, as expected, Americans will be required to obtain federally approved ID cards with "machine readable technology" that abides by Department of Homeland Security specifications.

The important question here is not merely this particular legislation, but the more philosophical question:

In a laissez-faire society, can government, at any level, rightfully require individuals to identify themselves? And, if so, in what form and to what extent?

[Eric Mathis]

The important question here is not merely this particular legislation, but the more philosophical question:

In a laissez-faire society, can government, at any level, rightfully require individuals to identify themselves? And, if so, in what form and to what extent?

The problem is that the Real ID Act goes far beyond mere identification. It allows the Homeland Security Dept. to mandate what format the cards will take, including the possibility of a built-in radio frequency chip that would enable the government to know where any citizen was at any moment. Anyone who is not disturbed by this prospect would probably feel right at home in Orwell's Oceania.

It does not matter how benign you imagine our current government to be. Once it falls into the hands of outright despots, the ID card will become a powerful weapon for the suppression of freedom.

Edited May 12, 2005 by Eric Mathis

[Ariana Binetta]

Gee, I wonder if by any chance the government will abuse this?

[valjean]

Don't you use your driver's license for identification? Does NC offer an ID card to people who don't drive?

Yes and not that I know of. There probably is a way to get one, however.

For official documentation before I had my driver's license, anything official-looking like my school ID card was always accepted. Of course a school ID has no merit as an identifier--they can be faked uber-easily--but that was generally accepted, even at the airport, for example.

Which reinforces the point that no matter what the feds try to do, they can't stop people from getting around their rules. It is ordinary, law-abiding citizens who will be hurt--criminals will just go around whatever barriers are set up in their way.

Edited May 12, 2005 by valjean

[Eric Mathis]

Gee, I wonder if by any chance the government will abuse this?

Is the Pope Catholic?

[end game]

The important question here is not merely this particular legislation, but the more philosophical question:

In a laissez-faire society, can government, at any level, rightfully require individuals to identify themselves? And, if so, in what form and to what extent?

Yes, they can. Here is a link to the SCOTUS decision concerning showing ID:

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/21...urt%20case'

Now, whether it is right or not is another story.

Eric Mathis,

Under the Brady Act, the records obtained on gun purchases had to be destroyed and could not be retained by the FBI. To this date, they still keep the records and do not follow the Act. If we apply the same logic to the Real ID Act, what they say and then do are completely different. I see a Helgian influence in the RIDA in which the ramifications are beyond belief of what will be done with this vile piece of legislation.

[scottkursk]

If you drive the wrong way on a one-way street and a police officer stops you and asks for your DL, he isn't only trying to see whether you have a license. Mainly he wants to know who you are so he can check his online files to see if you are wanted for some infraction of the law.

In Texas, where there are quite a few non-citizens, there are two types of id's as well. DL's and ID's. The ID's are issued to ANYONE regardless of citizenship. You basically just have to show paperwork to "prove" who you are. I could pretty easily fake foreign birth certs and other ppwk to get a perfectly legit Texas State ID. Actually, the same goes for the DL. I just had to replace my DL after I got robbed and all I had to do was show my SS card and a copy of my birth certificate to get my new DL. Oddly enough, I had my original SS card from 20+ years ago but couldn't find my birth certificate. So I ordered one from WalMart.com. No, really. It was hauntingly easy.

No wonder ID theft is as commonplace as it is. The national ID will do nothing to protect us just make it easier to track us. Which is something I'm not comfortable with. Yes, having a national database in which the fed can track all financial transactions will make money laundering MUCH harder will help stop terrorism is in the works. I know, we are having to gear up for such a system to be in place. Actually, surprisingly every brokerage and just about every bank transaction you do now goes through a government filter to check to make sure you aren't a bad guy.

Sad thing is, there are so many false positives. I would be willing to bet that if you open 3 bank accounts, each one with a different bank in 3 different parts of town in your own name, you'll get a call "just to verify" everything is correct. That is one of the things I have to do in my job now. The govt thinks people should do all their fiancial transactions close to home. There is a magical database that all brokers and banks put EVERYONE's info through when they open any kind of savings, bank, brokerage, CD, etc in and if your name comes up we are required to get verification it's you up to and including copies of bills at your stated physical address, copies of your passport, state issued id, etc. Funny or not, a US military ID is not considered valid for identification purposes. So the feds don't even trust their own id's.

Those are very un-fun calls to make, trust me on that.

[scottkursk]

Is the Pope Catholic?

I was sorting through a list of database templates the other night and found one titled "dB of Popes: Catholic-Updated5/1/05"

I guess as opposed to a database of the Jewish and Sufi Popes....