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I've been thinking about dreaming lately and the powerful self-improving hidden aspects that may come along with it. Many times I have awoke from a dream where I did something ridiculous; take for instance 'acrobatic stunts'. After I awoke, I had a feeling that I could do these stunts, but never had the guts to try them out.

I'm wondering if one was to have a lucid dream (a dream where the dreamer controls what's happening), what skills, if any, could he take from having a selective dreaming experience.

If a man who has never rollerbladed in his life dreams that he is rollerblading with eloquence and balance, will he be able to tackle the challenge of learning to rollerblade better than someone who has had neither experience?

I also wonder of the therapeutic possibilities of dreaming. If person X is not self-confident in life, but then experiences a lucid dream where he has unlimited power and creativity, will he awake with more self-confidence, since he had control over a seemingly real reality?

Also, it has been said that some of the most creative inventions have come from one's dreams. Has anyone had a creative invention come from a dream?

Thoughts? Comments?

Also, has anyone kept a dream journal? If so, were you able to draw any conclusions as to why you were having the dreams you were having? And, has a dream brought premonition to you before--or slight glimpses of it?

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When I was a small child, I was often plagued by nightmares. In dealing with these, I became very skilled with "lucid dreaming". By the time of my late adolescence, I was able to often controll dreams, plan dreams before going to sleep, and retain a great deal of memory regarding the contents of my dreams. Not all of my dreams are lucid, but often there comes a point in a particularly vivid dream in which I realize that it is a dream, and then I have somewhat of a choice to try and direct it.

I've found this to be, at the least, a fascinating tool for introspection. You have *some* controll, and you know it's a dream-- at least, I know that I am in my own subconscious mind, with at least a vague awareness that there is such a thing as reality and that the sensations I am experiencing in the dream have relevence and should be remembered. But still, the dream is it's own kind of "reality"-- there are rules you have to follow in it if you don't want to wake yourself up, and there is a different kind of logic directing events than in actual reality.

In exploring the "logic" [edit: maybe "rationale" is a better word.] and "rules" of my own dreamworlds, I've been able to dig up and locate long forgotten memories and knowledge, as well as emotions and desires that were at least partially repressed, ignored, or forgotten in my conscious life.

As far as gaining practical knowledge.. particularly regarding skills and physical activities in the real world, I have spent some time with that, too. I am a musician, and for a while, when I was in school and hardly had any time to practice, I tried for a while to plan dreams in which I practiced playing guitar.

I know it sounds rediculous, but I really do think I benefited tremendously from these dream practice sessions. It's not the same as physically practicing the guitar- because you're not excercising your hands, and you're not training your mind to coordinate with your hands and with the sounds in time and space, as you would if you were actually practicing. But the objects in a dream take on special symbolic significance- what I played on the guitar in my dream was my mind's attempt to integrate and understand and recreate the act of playing music in reality. So when I'd think "play a G Major," my mind would have to do a lot of work to create what I think "G Major" means. It would search my subconscious for all my knowledge of music theory, and it would search my memory of experiencing "G Major" in reality. I found that when I awoke, and played G Major on my guitar, it was more vivid to me... I noticed more things about it that I used to ignore or overlook. Perhaps because I was trying to program my subconscious mind to make a better "G Major" in my next dream.

I note that in Ayn Rand's instructional book on how to write fiction, programming the subconscious mind is a skill that is emphasized as essential. My method might seem overcomplicated, but I was trying to make the most of my time. And I had fun doing it, as an end in itself anyway. I don't know if you could get better at something as physical gravity-bound as rollerblading in a dream. But when I try to learn things like rollerblading, I don't usually approach them very conceptually. Dreams are good at conceptual things.. but maybe if I approached rollerblading more conceptually, I'd be better at it.

Also, dream journals are a good idea, I think. Because you always remember dreams best when you first wake up. Writing it down, and then going back later and reviewing what you remembered at first, and comparing it with what you remember now, is a good way to improve your ability to remember your dreams.

Edit- Oh, and one more thing- predicting the future is impossible, in dreams or reality, I think. Sometimes I will have a dream, and experience something like it later in real life, and notice the cooincidence, sometimes with a kind of shock or surprize. But I think it is a coincidence, and the similar sensations bring the memory to your immediate attention- like smelling a smell from long ago, and that's why it gains such a strange emotional quality that people supersticiously ascribe to the supernatural.

Edit #2- Nx, I just reread your post, and as a suggestion, I think you should be carefull not to underestimate the psychological symbolism that is present in dreams. For example, a dream in which you can do acrobatic stunts that you're afraid to do in real life could be your subconscious mind telling you that fear is holding you back from achieving your goals in real life- in general, not specifically related to acrobatics. Acrobatics might just be the handiest association your subconscious mind had access to at the time of the dream.

Edited by Bold Standard
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Yeesh, let's nip this nascent mysticism in the bud right now.

I've been thinking about dreaming lately and the powerful self-improving hidden aspects that may come along with it.  Many times I have awoke from a dream where I did something ridiculous; take for instance 'acrobatic stunts'.  After I awoke, I had a feeling that I could do these stunts, but never had the guts to try them out.

Perhaps because you are aware that feelings aren't tools of cognition and you're actually NOT able to do ridiculous acrobatic stunts? I occasionally dream that I have wings and I sometimes wake up with phantom sensations of actually possessing them. Which means what? That I had a very vivid dream, that's what.

A lucid dream is one where you're aware that you're dreaming. This (I've been told) is a result of not-very-deep sleep. Generally, I tend to have these dreams immediately before I wake up or after I wake up and then go to sleep again, which is at least some personal corroboration.

The important factor that you are ignoring is that acting with self-confidence etc. are all volitional. They are not determined by outside factors in this fashion. I have, again, personal experience with these matters because for years I was chronically diagnosed with low-grade anxiety and depression. I've found that if I decide to face something with confidence and good humor then I CAN, regardless of dreams, fears, psychometabolic states, what have you.

Since dreaming is, as I understand it, the way your brain rests and reorganizes itself after soaking up all kinds of input all day, it makes some sense that, while you're asleep and dreaming it makes connections that you didn't while you were awake. Any creativity of this sort is a result of the thinking you already did, as is any other kind of intuitive leap etc. You can't have dreams until you have mental contents, after all. And no one dreams about anything they've never seen before.

Also, has anyone kept a dream journal?  If so, were you able to draw any conclusions as to why you were having the dreams you were having?  And, has a dream brought premonition to you before--or slight glimpses of it?

No one can "see" the future. Deja vu is caused by you having an experience later that "seems" to mesh up with a dream or previous experience you've had. I experience this all the time to greater or lesser degrees. It feels REALLY funny. I think the main reason for it is that you don't really REMEMBER your dreams all that clearly, so you kind of "write in" details at a later time to make it fit with what's going on now.

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Bold thanks for the reply! The dream world fascinates me beyond a lot of other things and by no means do I underestimate any significance hidden behind the events that occur in them.

Do you have any suggestions for realizing your dreaming when you're dreaming? I've had 1 lucid dream my entire life but haven't been successful at having any others--I journaled for around 4-6 months with hundreds of attempts at lucidity, but none were efficacious (I was able to recall dreams impeccably, but no lucidity!)

I know it sounds rediculous, but I really do think I benefited tremendously from these dream practice sessions.

Not at all :) It seems you get the same mental experience as you would in the waking world, minus the coordination required by the body.

I found that when I awoke, and played G Major on my guitar, it was more vivid to me... I noticed more things about it that I used to ignore or overlook.
Awesome.

Oh, and one more thing- predicting the future is impossible, in dreams or reality, I think.

And I thought so too (I remain on the fulcrum between both sides--wavering neither way). One time I decided to read my journals from a few months back to see how many I had remembered, and after reading this particular one i thought to myself, "Oh my god...this ACTUALLY happened." With mild incredulity, I got extremely excited and read many more, looking for other ones. I ended up finding another one that fit almost entirely and then one that was partially true (although not enough to say that it was a prediction).

Yet I remain skeptical of it, knowing that it could be mere coincidence. I shall begin to journal again and see what happens. The cool thing about the discovery of the possible premonition was the fact that it was not my intention to look for any old dreams that had relevance to the future or the immediate past--so in no way was I partial to my discovery.

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And I thought so too (I remain on the fulcrum between both sides--wavering neither way).  One time I decided to read my journals from a few months back to see how many I had remembered, and after reading this particular one i thought to myself, "Oh my god...this ACTUALLY happened."  With mild incredulity, I got extremely excited and read many more, looking for other ones.  I ended up finding another one that fit almost entirely and then one that was partially true (although not enough to say that it was a prediction).

Well, it might not be 100% coincidence. Although the exact process that goes into the creation of dreams is not completely understood, it is believed that dreams are at least partially the result of things that have been on your mind during the day.

For example, if you are planning on meeting your Aunt Nadine at Starbucks next week, you might have a dream about the experience-- based on previous experiences with your Aunt Nadine, and Starbucks, and also your imagination about what *might* happen. Then, when it happens-- miracle of miracles!-- it's just like you dreamed. But if you've been to Starbucks with Aunt Nadine a hundred times, it's not so mystical. Especially considering that you remember only the details that happen to coincide with reality and forget the rest. Even if you've never been to Starbucks or met your Aunt, your imigination might get *some* details right, which still might surprize you when it happens in real life.

Perhaps because you are aware that feelings aren't tools of cognition and you're actually NOT able to do ridiculous acrobatic stunts? I occasionally dream that I have wings and I sometimes wake up with phantom sensations of actually possessing them. Which means what? That I had a very vivid dream, that's what.

Lol, I like your style of writing. It's interesting that you use that particular example about flying though. I'm almost sure I've seen Ayn Rand use that same example of a flying dream, when discussing the tremendous power dreams have to inspire us. The inspiration comes from a desire to recapture that emotion-- not necissarily from a belief that human flight is actually possible. But I agree that if you can't seperate the fantasy from the reality, you probably won't ever recapture (ie, achieve) that liberating emotion in real life.

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Perhaps because you are aware that feelings aren't tools of cognition and you're actually NOT able to do ridiculous acrobatic stunts?

I agree that feelings are not tools of cognition, but the sensation of doing something (whether it be a backflip or dunking a basketball) in a dream *may* be--in terms of muscle memory and what have you. When I said "feeling," I didn't really mean emotions; I meant the feeling of actually performing acrobatic stunts...it was the feeling of performing proprioceptive movements--which I think may carry over to the waking state.

Generally, I tend to have these dreams immediately before I wake up or after I wake up and then go to sleep again, which is at least some personal corroboration.
Yeah this is usually the time when my thoughts turn into dreams.

I've found that if I decide to face something with confidence and good humor then I CAN

Exactly. But some people need that extra "boost" in order to decide to act with confidence. If, in a dream, a man is able to control every aspect of his reality and maintain some of that feeling of control when he wakes up, it might just be enough for him to choose to decide to face things with confidence.

I also do not think that the brain really ever rests.

And no one dreams about anything they've never seen before.

Would you mind clarifying? I've never seen many things that appear in my dreams, (even in pictures, motion pictures, etc.) yet I have seen aspects of them.

I think the main reason for it is that you don't really REMEMBER your dreams all that clearly, so you kind of "write in" details at a later time to make it fit with what's going on now.

This wasn't my case as my dreams were quite easy to remember after a few weeks of dream journaling, and I wrote them down immediately after waking up, never adding contents later. I'm still skeptical about the whole ordeal, but it definitely gave me the goose bumps when I read it and realized that the dream seemed to have predicted (or shown) the future.

For example, if you are planning on meeting your Aunt Nadine at Starbucks next week, you might have a dream about the experience-- based on previous experiences with your Aunt Nadine, and Starbucks, and also your imagination about what *might* happen. Then, when it happens-- miracle of miracles!-
Yeah this seems like the most plausible reason.
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I'm sceptical about the benefits of writing down details of your dreams. I think that using words and concepts from 'day to day life' to describe dream experiences, which are often as far removed from waking life as is possible to imagine, is going to cramp and distort them to a fairly large degree. It would be like writing coherently about an LSD trip or trying to describe string theory using nothing other than common English - that just isnt what the language is meant to be used for.

Edited by Hal
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Hal interesting point, and often times it is hard to describe the dreams, especially just after waking up. But usually, regardless of how ineptly I describe a dream, so long as it enables me to remember the experience, then all is well.

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Do you have any suggestions for realizing your dreaming when you're dreaming?  I've had 1 lucid dream my entire life but haven't been successful at having any others--I journaled for around 4-6 months with hundreds of attempts at lucidity, but none were efficacious  (I was able to recall dreams impeccably, but no lucidity!)

JMeganSnow is right that lucid dreams are not usually very deep sleep. I've found I had more lucid dreams that I could remember if there was something going on in my environment while I slept- loud music in another room, for example, or roomates awake studying and watching tv.

Also, I found that if I concentrate on the type of dream I want to have before I fall asleep, sometimes I can make myself actually have that dream. The hard part for me is not waking myself up as soon as I realize I'm dreaming. If I try to steer my dream too much in a direction it's not going, I'll wake myself up. I try to follow the rules of the dream as much as they had been established before I realized I'm dreaming, and still maintain an awareness that it's a dream, and that it's in my mind, therefore I have some control over what's happening.

Maybe it's my psychological habit of applying reason to reality that helps me realize I'm dreaming. Even if I'm in a dream, the first hint of A being non-A sets of red flags for me. Usually it will be something like that- something impossible happens and I think, "Oh, it's a dream. Let's see what I can learn and do."

And no one dreams about anything they've never seen before.

I'm not sure how literally you meant this. Part of the content of dreams is a refiling of images and sounds stored in the memory. It could be all dreams start out that way. But as the subconscious mind begins to attempt to interpret these images into something coherent, new images and sounds are created. I'm not sure about this, but I think it's possible for new images and sounds to be generated entirely from the imagination that are not taken from the memory.

I know I've heard people that I know in real life say words in dreams, in their own voices, that I have never heard them say in real life. And I've seen fantastic creatures, machines, and otherworldly scenery in dreams that don't approach anything I've seen in real life. But if your theory is correct, I think this could still be explained with images and sounds stored in memory, reorganized in such a way that they simply appear different.

After all, there are only, I think, five flavours that the human palate can distinguish, but combinations of these five gives rise to every seemingly disparate taste imaginable. And every color of the rainbow is made from the same three primary colors, in different mixtures.

I'm sceptical about the benefits of writing down details of your dreams. I think that using words and concepts from 'day to day life' to describe dream experiences, which are often as far removed from waking life as is possible to imagine, is going to cramp and distort them to a fairly large degree. It would be like writing coherently about an LSD trip or trying to describe string theory using nothing other than common English - that just isnt what the language is meant to be used for.

Ridiculous. Anything can be described with words. Besides, the benifit is that it helps you remember things better. Maybe it helps you become a better writer, too!

Edited by Bold Standard
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If you know of any objective techniques for this, please tell! And also, how did you come to discover them?

Do we want to get into dream interpretation? I LOVE doing that! 

c

Edited by Bold Standard
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  • 2 weeks later...

" Also, it has been said that some of the most creative inventions have come from one's dreams. Has anyone had a creative invention come from a dream? "

I think that the best thoughts are product of subsconcience mind.

I noticed that when I am thinking about A then appear a lot of good ideas about B.

In dreams happen similar : you create things without restrictions of your model of reality.

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I think that the best thoughts are product of subsconcience mind.
Since this thought is the product of a conscious mind, it is a bad thought. The only defense you have is to say that the thought came to you when you were not conscious. If it did, it wasn't a thought, so it can not be judged as the best thought.

If "subcoscious" is a derivative of conscious, there must be two states of consciousness. Since there isn't, I think when you say "subconscious" it actually means unconscious.

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  • 3 weeks later...

"The only evil thought is the refusal to think." -Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

I know by "bad thought" you probably meant something more like "incomplete thought," but words like that send off many red flags for me! I would say that the "subconscious," while not a state of consciousness, could better be described as an aspect of consciousness than as simply "unconscious,"* because in addition to all of the data stored in memory, the subconscious also designates thoughts of which one is consciously "aware," but not consciously focusing on. Your subconscious is everything in your mind that is not the focus of your immediate attention. I think it could be described as the ROM and OS of your brain, to give an analogy.

But your subconscious is "programmed" by your conscious mind. If you fail to make integrations consciously, your subconscious mind will go on integrating them automatically. That leads to the phenomenon that ANGELSP noticed, in which thoughts seem to spontaneously generate out of the subconscious. Really that is a mistake in introspection: every thought is a product of the conscious mind, it just depends whether you identify it through a conscious process of reason, or whether you let your subconscious mind make your connections for you, based on the procedures you have previously programmed into it, consciously or unconsciously.

I hope that makes sense.. I didn't get any sleep last night. I'm running on automatic subconscious autopilot right now...

*[Edit: Although, it's notable that in Psychological literature, the term "unconscious" is often used synonymously with "subconscious."]

Since this thought is the product of a conscious mind, it is a bad thought. The only defense you have is to say that the thought came to you when you were not conscious. If it did, it wasn't a thought, so it can not be judged as the best thought.

If "subcoscious" is a derivative of conscious, there must be two states of consciousness. Since there isn't, I think when you say "subconscious" it actually means unconscious.

Edited by Bold Standard
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The process of dreaming and the subconscious is something that science has not definitively explained yet and until that time, mysticism will be bound inextricably around it. That being said, dreaming is for me a very unique experiment.

I have not recently attempted a lucid dream, but it is possible and more likely when you are not particularly tired. You start off by concentrating on the thing you wish to dream about and imagine, almost as if you are daydreaming. After a while let your mind relax and follow the path of the dream. Normally the dream you have planned will continue for some time but usually isn't vivid. This conscious decision on your part, to plan part of your dream sets the base for the next cycle of sleep (subjectively) and the occurence of a lucid dream. This dream will be life-like and your cognitive faculties should be somewhat intact (ie. your conscious mind should be partially restored inside of your subconscious dream). At a crucial point you will recognize you are dreaming but still be able to interact inside a dream. Then it becomes a gamble, as the length of the dream could be fairly long or very short. The more you try to force the fabric of your dream the more your conscious mind imposes itself on the subconscious,forcing one into dominance and causing you to awaken.

In some lucid dreams I have been able to stretch the rules such as volitionally giving myself supernatural abilities (telekineses, floating). The most remarkable occurence is when you are not able to influence control of a lucid dream. I have tried to do the above in some dreams, only to find that I had the same amount of control over reality as in the real world. In some dreams I have been unable to volitionally wake myself up and I have been "trapped" within my own mind. It is a fascinating realization to be helpless not before a an outside source but your own mind. I will also note that upon awaking from a lucid dream, I have not felt particulalry rested. but rather strained.

I would also like to ask whether anyone else can testify to the unique experience of subjective time when dreaming. I have fallen asleep for short amounts of time and subjectively felt as though I had been dreaming for hours rather than minutes. Some people have had an entire complicated dream around a sound such a doorbell ringing which is somehow integrated with the rest of the events. Since it doesn't make sense that she precognitively knew a certain sound would be ringing the only explanation would be that a dream that may be subjectively experienced for a half hour actually was objectively experienced in less than a second. I would be interested to hear what anyone thought of this phenomena.

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Some of my lucid dreams have been planned, but I've had a lot that weren't planned, and when I had been tired. But I do think you can increase your odds as you suggest.

In some dreams I have been unable to volitionally wake myself up and I have been "trapped" within my own mind.

It's funny you should say that. It was a recurring dream in which I was "trapped," like you say, that inspired me to first attempt control over my dreams, when I was (I think) about 6 years old. Of course, I didn't actually know what "lucid dreaming" was at that age, but my mother had told me my nightmares were caused by demons who wanted to disturb my sleep, and she said that if you say, "Be gone in the name of Christ!" demons have to leave you alone. So that night, when the monster in my dreams had me trapped, I said, "Be gone in the name of Christ!" which had absolutely no negative effect on the monster, who subsequently locked me in a room and forced me to swallow bad-tasting medicine. I knew I was dreaming, but for what seemed like hours, I couldn't force myself to wake up. Then, for the first time, it happened: I realized I could make objects appear in my dreams if I wanted to. I made a phone booth appear, then I called God and told him to wake me up! (I don't know how I knew His phone number...) Then I woke up. That dream was interesting, because it was my first lucid dream, and one of the first real indications I had that the Christian principles my parents were teaching me were rather suspect, to say the least, and would fail me at crucial moments when they were most needed.

It is a fascinating realization to be helpless not before a an outside source but your own mind. I will also note that upon awaking from a lucid dream, I have not felt particulalry rested. but rather strained.
A lot of people say that, but for some reason, I always feel especially refreshed after a lucid dream.

I would also like to ask whether anyone else can testify to the unique experience of subjective time when dreaming. I have fallen asleep for short amounts of time and subjectively felt as though I had been dreaming for hours rather than minutes. Some people have had an entire complicated dream around a sound such a doorbell ringing which is somehow integrated with the rest of the events.

Yes, I've had all of those dreams you mentioned. I don't know how that works, but it might relate to the fact that your subconscious mind contains much more information than your conscious mind is able to hold in focus at any given moment (all of your memories, for instance-- and all of your principles, beliefs, and concepts.) It could be that in a dream, you can access a greater part of your mind in any given moment than you can while you're awake, thus when you interpret it later, is seems like it must have happened over a long period of time. But that's just a guess. Also, in the dreams where the whole dream seems built around whatever sound it is that wakes you up from the dream, I think that's in part due to the fact that when you're awake, you are interpreting the dream logically, so in order to make sense of previous parts of the dream, you might use the doorbell to explain them, not remembering that when they actually occurred in the dream, they were really connected to something else, or maybe to nothing at all.

Well, it's true that dreams are a relatively unsolved puzzle scientifically, but I don't think that mysticism surrounding the unknown is inextricable. Normatively, this has been the case. But superstition is not an innate quality in human nature. And we have the antidote readily at hand.

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I know by "bad thought" you probably meant something more like "incomplete thought,"...

the term "unconscious" is often used synonymously with "subconscious."

I did not mean incomplete thought. You agree the term subconscious is synonomous with unconscious. Then you equate a subconscious thought to a incomplete thought. A tree is unconscious. What do you figure they think about is that state of subconsciousness?

I beleive that thinking is a product of consciousness, and that unconsciousness is the abscense of thought.

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I didn't agree that "subconscious" is synonymous with "unconscious." I said that it is sometimes used that way in Psychological literature. The reason that I don't use it that way is to prevent exactly the equivocation you seem to be committing. You are right in saying that "unconsciousness" could be used to describe the absence of thought, since thinking is certainly the product of consciousness. But if that is your context, it is improper to equate "unconscious" with "subconscious."

In your context, a tree is unconscious indeed, but that doesn't mean that it possesses a subconsciousness! That is the type of anthropomorphism that environmentalists rely on, but it can't be taken seriously. The subconscious is an aspect of the human mind, which is easily observed and proven. Trees are not conscious at all, therefore they can't contain "everything present in a mind which is not being held in immediate awareness," which is how I define "subconscious."

That being said, the subconscious mind doesn't "think." But it does perform automatic integrations of concepts and sense perceptions. It's not a "thought" until these integrations are perceived, grasped, and/or performed through conscious (held in immediate awareness) reasoning.

But angelsp didn't say that "the best thoughts" occur in the subconscious mind, he said they are a product of the subconscious mind. The fact that the subconscious doesn't "think" makes that statement incomplete, but not completely absurd. It is possible for the subconscious mind to perform an automatic integration, and for the conscious mind then to perceive the product and form a thought based on it-- therefore the thought is in part a product of the subconscious mind. The idea as angelsp presents it is a common illusion that Ayn Rand refers to much in The Art of Fiction (not in those exact words, but similar!) Of course, she's more eloquent in explaining the phenomenon than I.

Edited by Bold Standard
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I wouldnt say a tree is unconscious - it is 'not conscious'. Being unconscious tends to imply a temporary state - an interval during the life of an entity capable of consciousness. But yeah, I think distinguishing between unconscious and subconscious could avoid misunderstandings. I personally think its less confusing to avoid both terms and talk about 'subconscious integrations' as being physical events in the brain.

Edited by Hal
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I didn't agree that "subconscious" is synonymous with "unconscious."  I said that it is sometimes used that way in Psychological literature.  The reason that I don't use it that way is to prevent exactly the equivocation you seem to be committing.
I equivocated the concpets intentionally to show that it was not the same. I misunderstood the edited portion of yor last reply.

It is possible for the subconscious mind to perform an automatic integration, and for the conscious mind then to perceive the product and form a thought based on it-- therefore the thought is in part a product of the subconscious mind.  The idea as angelsp presents it is a common illusion that Ayn Rand refers to much in The Art of Fiction (not in those exact words, but similar!)  Of course, she's more eloquent in explaining the phenomenon than I.
I have to reread that before I write anymore.
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In response to the topic of the integration of information by a process that is not fully under the direction of one's concious mind, it seems likely that such processes exist. One example could be called concept matching.

When I am trying to integrate some particularly difficult bit of information I often become aware of similarities between two concepts. What I am not conscious of is my checking a new concept against all existing ones. It is obviously necessary to check the new connection with a conscious use of reason, however, as I sometimes make connections between two concepts that are unwarranted.

In regards to dreaming while integrating information from the world, I do it frequently. It is a very bad means of integrating information, however. I have dozed off while reading scientific journals, only to awaken a moment later with totally incoherent thoughts in my mind.

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I beleive that thinking is a product of consciousness, and that unconsciousness is the abscense of thought.

Someone cannot be thinking, and still be conscious, can't they?

The subconscious is an aspect of the human mind, which is easily observed and proven. Trees are not conscious at all, therefore they can't contain "everything present in a mind which is not being held in immediate awareness," which is how I define "subconscious."

What do you mean by "immediate awareness?" Do you mean that the subconscious is simply a repository for knowledge that the conscious mind can access at any time--say for instance, an old memory? Or does "immeadiate awareness" mean that the conscious mind cannot access the info? Or possibly something else?

Also, I'm curious how the subconscious is proven, but I'll wait to see how you respond to the above before asking that question.

Peace.

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I use the term "subconscious" to refer to several closely related functions of the mind. One of the primary functions is, as you say, to be a repository for knowledge that the conscious mind can access at any time. That is easily provable, because it is absurd to think that knowledge ceases to exist in your mind simply because you don't happen to be thinking about it in a particular given moment. To say, as Hal suggests, that it retreats into the "physical brain" is not significantly different, in this context, from saying it moves to your subconscious mind.

"Immediate awareness," likewise, can be defined introspectively, as "that which is the object of your intellectual focus in a particular time," just as it could be described as a physiological event with certain neurons firing in certain areas of the brain at a particular time, etc. Of course, a common mistake is to say that thought processes are physical events in the brain only, and that the mind per se does not exist-- that's materialism, whether you say that the conscious or the subconscious does not exist.

But the filing of memories is not the only function ascribed to the subconscious. It also describes various associations between memories, concepts, and emotions, and also (aspects of) the processes by which sensations, emotions, and the contents of memory are recalled and brought to attention. Also, I understand it to direct to some extent the transition between events in the mind and physiological phenomena associated with them, and I think it has something to do with reflexes and their interaction with emotions and value judgments, but you'd really have to consult a professional in that field to get a straight answer on that!

All of these processes can be proven, and I can maybe give some insight (as much as I understand them) on the specifics of a given function, only I'm not 100% certain exactly what always is best described as "subconscious" and what might have its own special term that I'm not aware of. Especially I'm sometimes foggy on the differentiation between "subconscious" and "reflex" in some instances. Nonetheless, both exist, and are proven.

I do think it's possible for information to be stored in the subconscious that is not easily accessible to the conscious mind. That would include obscure, distant memories, or knowledge/emotions that are blocked by some kind of psychological repression, or other function/disfunction of the mind. But being in the subconscious does not guarantee inaccessibility of a memory, concept, emotion etc by any means, in any context I've come across. It simply means you are not thinking of it (the memory, etc) in a specific point in time.

I equivocated the concpets intentionally to show that it was not the same. I misunderstood the edited portion of yor last reply.

Oh, sorry-- my fault for not being clear. The term "unconscious" can be misleading. But I agree with Hal that a tree would better be described with a word like "insentient" than "unconscious."

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A funny personal story...I bought a 5 speed for my first car and was having a very difficult time learning to drive it. One night I dreamed that I was driving a 5 speed perfectly. The next day I got in my car and...I could drive. Looking back I think that I was nervous of driving the 5 speed and therefore tense. Perhaps the relaxed state of the dream and the success I had while dreaming solidified the motions I needed in order to become a better driver.

Another dream I had that was sort of funny...I dreampt that I was pregnant (which was impossible). In the dream I was looking through cupboards with my brother. I kept saying "I know that he is in here somewhere!" When I woke up from this dream I felt certain that my brother's wife was pregnant with a little boy...and sure enough two months later they called to say they were pregnant and then they found out it was a boy! I don't think that this means that dreams can predict the future...I think that it means that I probably overheard them talking about their plans for when they were going to have their next child, and since I adore having new nieces and nephews my subconscious provided the dream because I was wishing that they would have another baby soon. I don't understand it fully, and back when I first had this happen to me I was very mystical, but now I know that there are always reasonable explanations for these things :dough:

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