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"talking To God"

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Strangelove

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A lot of mystics (especially evangelicals, though this does not only apply to them) often use language about having "conversations" with God, and other such claims of "communication".

I am interested, has their been any scientific research done which shows how this illusionary effect is achieved? I would imagine it would require some sort of control to be established over certain parts of the brain hemispheres, possibly triggering some sort of hormonal response to give such a sensation a feeling of "pleasure". But I have only a High-School level of basic biology education so would like any links to articles or web pages which may explain this phenomenon.

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A lot of mystics (especially evangelicals, though this does not only apply to them) often use language about having "conversations" with God, and other such claims of "communication".

I am interested, has their been any scientific research done which shows how this illusionary effect is achieved? I would imagine it would require some sort of control to be established over certain parts of the brain hemispheres, possibly triggering some sort of hormonal response to give such a sensation a feeling of "pleasure". But I have only a High-School level of basic biology education so would like any links to articles or web pages which may explain this phenomenon.

Why do you assume that claims to having conversations with a (nonexistent) God can be reduced to biological phenomenon? Isn't that reductionism and therefore determinism?

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People who say they talk to God are either frauds or delusional (or both).

But this topic leads me to another question. On those Christian TV networks, I've seen people faint when the preachers touch their foreheads. Allegedly, they feel the power of God is some crap. Are these people simply faking or is it something similar to hypnosis?

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People also faint when they get too close to the Beatles or Elvis Presley. I.e. you can make yourself faint. Hyperventilating and getting excited helps. So does standing for a long time with your knees locked. Or standing and kneeling and sitting down in rapid succession. It's no wonder people faint in church.

Edited to add: Christianity = epidemic of lightheadedness. :)

Edited by JMeganSnow
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Why do you assume that claims to having conversations with a (nonexistent) God can be reduced to biological phenomenon? Isn't that reductionism and therefore determinism?

If it is a phenomenon which a portion of the population claims to "suffer" from, and if their is a biological explanation for reaching such an irrational conclusion, then it would probably be the same biological reason for those people.

If it was possible to say "You are not actually 'feeling' any presence of a divine being, this CAT Scan shows that this portion of your brain is just acting up" then I would be very happy.

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If it was possible to say "You are not actually 'feeling' any presence of a divine being, this CAT Scan shows that this portion of your brain is just acting up" then I would be very happy.

Yes, but it wouldn't accomplish anything. The religionists would just cheerfully announce that that part of the brain is the part that receives the messages of God.

No evidence of any kind can convince someone that denies the meaning of evidence.

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One explanation for this phenomenon could be that what Christians mistake for "The Voice of God" is actually their own subconscious mind.

I submit that, since the Dark Ages, Christians have claimed that various illnesses, physical and psychological, were the direct result of Demonic influences. Likewise, benign and helpfull phenomena are claimed to be Angelic or Divinely Inspired.

In other words, the discoveries of secular Sciences, such as Psychology, are often neglected or distorted by Christians. Instead of rational explanations for the inner workings of their minds, they turn immediately to the Supernatural.

If you or I had a thought come to us suddenly- for example, the solution to a problem we had been working on and had found no solution for- even though it wasn't the immediate focus of our attention, and nothing in our environment occured to bring it to mind, we wouldn't be surprized. But this is the sort of thing a Christian often takes to be the Voice of God. That, or they're simply lying.

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I think its a pretty simple case of either lying, and claiming they talk to "god" when nothing of the sort happens, or a case of a very vivid imagination on the part of others.

It's inconceivable that such a large number of people are engaged in systematic lying or delusion (the same applies to UFO abductees) - I would guess that most are 'misinterpreting' an objective experience, but the experience itself is almost certainly real (sleep paralysis has been suggested as a possible explanation for many UFO tales for instance).

I doubt theres one cause behind all cases, but theres probably a small number that would cover the majority.

Edited by Hal
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Bold Standard,

You wrote: "I submit that, since the Dark Ages, Christians have claimed that various illnesses, physical and psychological, were the direct result of Demonic influences."

What are you basing this on? The "Dark Ages" are, as defined by objective historians, that period of time roughly between 410 (when the Roman Empire collapsed) and about 900, when Europe began to get back on its feet. "Since" the Dark Ages, Christian scientists moved forward: between the twelfth and the fourteenth centuries about forty universities were founded in Europe, partly by private initiative, partly by princes or popes, in most cases by the combined efforts of both together with the members of the university. To many of the professors' chairs, ecclesiastical benefices were applied by the popes without other obligation than that of teaching science. If you're claiming that Christians believed that illness wasn't worth studying because it was due to demonic influences, you're simply ignoring the advances in science and medicine that were made by Christians. Use facts, if you desire credibility.

Hal,

I tend to agree. The events of Fatima in 1917 are also interesting: it seems unusual, to say the least, that 70,000 people (including agnostics and atheists) would have been subject to a mass delusion at the same time.

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It's inconceivable that such a large number of people are engaged in systematic lying or delusion (the same applies to UFO abductees) -...
I can see someone misinterpreting a light in the sky, or some strange reflection on a cloud. That would cover some, not all, of UFO sightings. However, if UFO abductees are not delusional, I do not know who could be called delusional. I'd submit that modern-day UFO abductees are likely to be far more delusional than those kids at Fatima.
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SoftwareNerd,

You wrote: "However, if UFO abductees are not delusional, I do not know who could be called delusional."

Hah! I'm in agreement with you on this one...some years back, while working late on a job that often required my working late hours to complete, I happened to tune into Art Bell on the radio. (There's not much else on late at night, what can I say...) Over a period of some nights here was a parade of various UFO-believing types. I would say that some probably were in need of psychiatric care, while some seemed to be making a living in this particular niche. All of which brought to mind the famous quote (often attributed to Chesterton, though incorrectly so): "When men stop believing in God they don't believe in nothing; they believe in anything".

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You guys may find this of some interest, from the article -

"In a provocative experiment with patients suffering from an unusual form of epilepsy, researchers at the UC-San Diego brain and perception laboratory determined that the parts of the brain's temporal lobe -- which the scientists quickly dubbed the "God module" -- may affect how intensely a person responds to religious beliefs.

People suffering from this type of seizure have long reported intense mystical and religious experiences as part of their attacks but also are unusually preoccupied with mystical thoughts between seizures."

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I would guess that most are 'misinterpreting' an objective experience, but the experience itself is almost certainly real (sleep paralysis has been suggested as a possible explanation for many UFO tales for instance).

Sleep paralysis can explain a lot of weird experiences quite easily. In a class of mine last year, some girl was telling a story about how she encountered ghosts one night, and everything she described was obviously the result of sleep paralysis. (In fact, she never said that she actually saw a ghost, just that she was paralysed when she woke up and could barely breathe, and interperted it as a visit from beyond the grave. Can't say she suffers from delusions, but only that she deliberately misinterperted a natural event to indicate the supernatural. I'm willing to bet that most the people who talk to God or are abducted by UFO's do the same thing. In fact, those who I know in person who claim to get "signals" from God seem to do the same thing--intentionally misinterpert natural events to indicate the supernatural.)

I submit that, since the Dark Ages, Christians have claimed that various illnesses, physical and psychological, were the direct result of Demonic influences.

While some advances were made in science after the Dark Ages, this was still widely believed, and rituals were practiced based on these beliefs for quite a while after the Dark Ages. The one particular instance I can remember is that the insanity of King George III of the UK was blamed on demonic influences, and one of the proposed cures was to suck out evil spirits by putting a cup to his back with a candle stick in it... the fire would react with the air inside the cup and eventually there would be little enough air in the cup for it to be stuck to his back, when it would be pulled off. Unfortunately, I can't remember my source.

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It's inconceivable that such a large number of people are engaged in systematic lying or delusion (the same applies to UFO abductees)

I think it is quite conceivable, for a very large portion of the populace, "talking to god" is an activity that is viewed not only as normal, but as a requirement to fit in.

Given these circumstances, it seems quite likely that people will try really really hard to "talk to god" and lie about it if they can't trick themselves into thinking they actually did.

Contrast this with UFO abductees who know they will be ridiculed for their beliefs.

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"Christianity" is a religion, not a philosophical system. Many individuals of varying philosophical premises and degrees of intelligence constitute the whole of Christianity. It is the oldest trick in the book for Christians to deny the wrongdoing of a majority of the Church by saying, "Well, those weren't the *real* Christians."

But even to this day, there are stories in the newspaper from time to time of some poor adolescent suffering from the early stages of schitzophrenia being taken to a Catholic priest, and having all sorts of unspeakable cruel and unusual things done to him in the name of driving out demons.

I'm not even saying that a majority of Christians still believe this way, just that there are some who do. And since, like most religions, the doctrines on which Christianity is based are so vaguely stated and incomplete, these people have just as much a right to the title of "Christian" as the most rational Thomist does.

"Since" the Dark Ages, Christian scientists moved forward: between the twelfth and the fourteenth centuries about forty universities were founded in Europe, partly by private initiative, partly by princes or popes, in most cases by the combined efforts of both together with the members of the university. To many of the professors' chairs, ecclesiastical benefices were applied by the popes without other obligation than that of teaching science. If you're claiming that Christians believed that illness wasn't worth studying because it was due to demonic influences, you're simply ignoring the advances in science and medicine that were made by Christians. Use facts, if you desire credibility.

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I can see someone misinterpreting a light in the sky, or some strange reflection on a cloud.

So can I, but not the number of people who have claimed to see UFOs. I realise you said this wouldnt explain all the cases, and I agree that it probably does explain a lot of sightings (if not the majority), but there's still a puzzlingly large number of actual abduction claims.

However, if UFO abductees are not delusional, I do not know who could be called delusional. I'd submit that modern-day UFO abductees are likely to be far more delusional than those kids at Fatima.

http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

Read those two links. This apparently affects a surprisingly large number of people, most whom probably arent 'delusional'.

Edited by Hal
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  • 4 weeks later...

I was reading the 17th century ("heretical") Jewish philosopher, Spinoza, yesterday, and I came across the most eloquent answer to the initial question in this thread:

"I must further premise that the Jews never make any mention or account of secondary, or particular causes, but in a spirit of religion, piety, and what is commonly called godliness, refer all things directly to the Deity. For instance, if they make money by a transaction, they say God gave it to them; if they desire anything, they say God has disposed their hearts towards it; if they think anything, they say God told them. Hence we must not suppose that everything is prophecy or revelation which is described in Scripture as told by God to any one, but only such things as are expressly announced as prophecy or revelation, or are plainly pointed to as such by the context." (From The Philosophy of Spinoza, Random House, 1954; pg. 38.)

This was given as a rule of thumb for interpreting scripture, but it fits in with my hypothesis regarding modern religionists also. For the record, I do recognize a difference between religion and superstition. But the former (a primitive attempt at philosophy) often contains the latter, and Judeo-Christianity is no exception. Observe how Spinoza anticipates my last post on people using the supernatural to explain things they don't understand:

"If the Jews were at a loss to understand any phenomenon, or were ignorant of its cause, they referred it to God. Thus a storm was termed the chiding of God, thunder and lightning the arrows of God, for it was thought that God kept the winds confined in caves, His treasuries; thus differing merely in name from the Greek wind-god Eolus. In like manner miracles were called works of God, as being especially marvelous; though in reality, of course; all natural events are the works of God, and take place solely by His power. The Psalmist calls the miracles in Egypt the works of God, because the Hebrews found in them a way of safety which they had not looked for, and therefore especially marveled at.

As, then, unusual natural phenomena are called works of God, and trees of unusual size are called trees of God, we cannot wonder that very strong and tall men, though impious robbers and whoremongers, are in Genesis called sons of God." (pg. 44; Ibid.)

I find Spinoza's approach more effective than my own, since its targets are Biblical, therefore less controversial than my Exorcist representatives of Christianity, which could with some legitimacy be dismissed as a straw man. Thomas Aquinas believed in angles and miracles too, but my point wasn't that all Christians walk around with torches and pitch forks looking for demonically inspired illnesses, only that the essential metaphysics presented in the Bible contains nothing to explicitly contradict such a practice-- if you take it literally.

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"I must further premise that the Jews never make any mention or account of secondary, or particular causes, but in a spirit of religion, piety, and what is commonly called godliness, refer all things directly to the Deity.  For instance, if they make money by a transaction, they say God gave it to them; if they desire anything, they say God has disposed their hearts towards it; if they think anything, they say God told them.  Hence we must not suppose that everything is prophecy or revelation which is described in Scripture as told by God to any one, but only such things as are expressly announced as prophecy or revelation, or are plainly pointed to as such by the context." (From The Philosophy of Spinoza, Random House, 1954; pg. 38.)

Along similar lines, I found the following passage quite amusing:

Posessing even the tiniest bit of piety in the body, we should find a god who cures a cold at the right time or who bids us enter a coach at the very moment when a violent rainstorm begins, such an absurd god that we should have to abolish him if he existed. A god as servant, as mailman, as calender man - at bottom, a word for the most stupid of all accidents. Divine providence [of this kind]would be an objection to God so strong that one simply could not imagine a stronger one.

-- Nietzsche

Edited by Hal
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  • 4 months later...

I was listening to a former Atheist argue the point of there being "a higher power". He brought up the point of scientists, even Atheist scientists, encountering and reporting people who have had out of body experiences and witnessed far away things that they couldn't have seen (such as a murder, marriage, accident, etc...). I have no reports at hand to show, nor have I seen them with my own eyes, but I heard it from a reliable source. I have also heard this point brought up several times.

I personally believe this to have a logical explanation, just as everything else, but I can't decifer the truth behind it. Perhaps the reports were really lies just for attention, then I am countered with "There have been countless reports of this happening, and how did they witness such things while bedridden?".

This seems to be closely related to "talking to God". Yet, there is another factor thrown in, they supposedly witnessed far away scenes they had no physical way of witnessing.

Any ideas of a logical explanation?

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Ehre, can you identify even one example of such "out-of-body" experiences for which there is proof? If so, please identify the person, his claims, and his proof. Then we can discuss whether his claims are objective. In the meantime, such claims are unproven. (They are not yet arbitrary until proof as been requested -- and denied by the claimant or by the nature of the claim itself.)

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One explanation for this phenomenon could be that what Christians mistake for "The Voice of God" is actually their own subconscious mind.

I once skimmed through the book "Conversations with God" in a local bookstore. This guy 'talked to god' by writing something down on a sheet of paper and then 'letting God write the answer'. Having some knowledge in the area of hypnosis, I thought to myself, hey, I can do this, too. This is just some sort of 'applied schizophrenia'. You become a schizophrenic for a while by inventing another personality and letting it answer the questions that your current personality can't. Just like when people in trance can be told they are picasso and suddenly they can paint. This is the same thing - the only difference is that the trance is not very deep.

So I went home, took a sheet of paper and started talking to myself on paper. It worked just fine. I found answers I have not found while 'being myself'. It's just a good way to go beyond your very own stubbornness and see things from another perspective. You don't have to talk to God, you can talk to anyone you want, Nietzsche, Ayn Rand, Homer Simpson, The Stooges, it doesn't matter. Your brain will make it up as good as it can. And it helps. Everyone has thought of telling a story to a friend and then laughing to the answer he will give just by thinking about what he would answer. This is the same thing. Only that you try to anticipate what the ultimate being that created the universe would answer, which is a powerful thing to do. You just shouldn't take it literally. :devil:

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Ehre, can you identify even one example of such "out-of-body" experiences for which there is proof? If so, please identify the person, his claims, and his proof. Then we can discuss whether his claims are objective. In the meantime, such claims are unproven. (They are not yet arbitrary until proof as been requested -- and denied by the claimant or by the nature of the claim itself.)

I succeeded in contacting the former Atheist who brought that point up, and asked him for a persons identity, his claims, and his proof (as you requested). He responded with this

Is your desire to write me about this subject caused by random brain

chemicals (not under your power of will), or is that desire, causing

you to

write me, not dictated by your physical brain? If it's not dependent on

mere

chemical interaction in the brain, what is it?

I don't have anything offhand to give you. Probably the best place

though to

look further is the IANDS web site:

http://iands.org/index.php

I took a look at the site. Unfortunately the link labeled "NDE [Near Death Experiences] Archives" is under construction. I was able to click on the "Children's NDEs" link. They really give no proof, and I find it funny that so many people believe these NDE's are the souls leaving the body, and even sometimes feeling the presense of god (or jesus as I've heard many say). I'll quote some information from their site that gives you an idea of what they believe to be truth.

What types of NDEs do children have?

P.M.H. Atwater studied over 270 child NDErs. She found that:

76% reported a comforting "initial" experience. Such experiences involved up to three elements, things like a loving nothingness, a friendly voice, a visitation by a loving being, an out-of-body experience, and/or the peacefulness of either a safe light or safe dark place

19% reported a pleasurable or heaven-like experience

3% reported a distressing or hell-like experience

2% had a "transcendent" experience in which they felt they acquired special knowledge.

Following is an example of the most commonly reported type of childhood NDE, the "initial" experience. In an episode of meningitis, a six-yearold reported being out of her body with a sense of being completely free of pain and totally surrounded by love. She reported feeling like a soul neither boy nor girl, neither grown-up nor child. She felt a sense of absolute peace and completeness. When she looked down, she saw a girl lying in bed and empathized with her pain. On reflection, she realized she must be that girl, and with that thought, she was back in her body.

What changes typically occur in children following an NDE?

Like adults, children often show profound changes after an NDE. Common changes include:

altered biological patterns, such as amount of sleep, attentiveness, etc. increased interest in universal love rather than love of specific people

a lessening of the parent/child bonding. The NDEr may be less demonstrative of feelings in the family. increased sensitivity to others' feelings

distress from news reports and violence on TV and in movies

increased interest in being of service to others

increased interest in spirituality

develop a hunger for knowledge and anything philosophical which often leads to unusual choices of reading material for their age

often appear much more mature than children of their own age

difficulty relating to children of their own age

communication with spirits, often labeled by children as angels or guides, and by parents as imaginary friends

increased sensitivity to medications, bright light, and loud noises

a strong desire to volunteer for charitable causes.

Possible changes can include:

increased intelligence

different ways of perceiving, including synesthesia (smelling color, seeing sounds, etc.)

increased psychic ability

"learning reversal" in which learning abstract concepts is easier than learning concrete details (unlike most children who learn concrete more easily than abstract.)

Unlike adults, changes in values may not be so obvious, partly because children's values are not already well formed, and partly because they do not verbalize their values to the extent that adults do.

Sorry I couldn't find concrete proof. I didn't think I would be able to, though. These people base their decisions on faith, so that's not going to help us too much :devil:. This is why it seems to be so hard to argue against those who believe in the "supernatural". No matter how much proof they say they have, in the end it always comes down to faith.

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I noticed something very interesting that was stated on the IANDS website, http://iands.org/index.php (the link from which I received the quote in my last post).

The example they gave to back their beliefs, in reality helps prove their lunacy.

In an episode of meningitis, a six-yearold reported being out of her body with a sense of being completely free of pain and totally surrounded by love. She reported feeling like a soul neither boy nor girl, neither grown-up nor child. She felt a sense of absolute peace and completeness. When she looked down, she saw a girl lying in bed and empathized with her pain. On reflection, she realized she must be that girl, and with that thought, she was back in her body.

That is their primary example of a childs NDE, and how they encountered the supernatural.

Take note that the kid had an episode of meningitis (Which was obviously a very bad one to bring him to a NDE). "Meningitis is an infection of the tissues (meninges) and sometimes the fluid (cerebral spinal fluid, or CSF) that surround the brain and spinal cord. Meningitis results in swelling of the brain tissue and in some cases the spinal tissue (spinal meningitis). When brain tissue swells, less blood and oxygen reach brain cells. If not treated, this can cause brain damage in some cases." (Definition from http://health.yahoo.com)

Hmm, seems to do a number on the brain. Interesting. . .

Any thoughts on this?

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Here's a thought:

When I was in high school I had a friend named Ryan who joined the rugby team at a different school. We razzed him because we didn't think he was cut out for rugby. We all thought he was going to get injured or something. So, one day I was attending my school and I heard some of our rugby players talking about a kid who broke his femur. I thought to myself, "Wouldn't it be funny if that was Ryan?" I asked what school they were playing and they said it was Bayport -- the school that Ryan attended. Later that day I got a call from another friend who told me that Ryan had indeed broken his femur. Coincidental, but not funny.

I could have claimed to have clairvoyant powers and some people might have believed me. If I were deluded enough, I might have even believed myself. However, I have random predictions all the time that do not turn out to be true. So, being of sound mind, I chalk it up to terrible coincidence.

The point is this: Some people have neglected their psycho-epistemology to the point where they delude themselves into believing in paranormal nonsense. That way, every simple coincidence is "evidence" of the supernatural. This is psychologically unhealthy and, if reinforced over time, might lead to something more severe - like hallucinations or "illusory experiences."

That's my take.

Edited by FeatherFall
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