Russian invasion of Ukraine/Belief of Mainstream Media Narrative

[Jon Letendre]

22 minutes ago, tadmjones said:

FBI raided Trump , the same FBI that protected the provably corrupt Biden.

 

The manner in which you are discussing the raid and the Biden Crime Family, is propaganda. lol

[tadmjones]

How did they find the time between kidnapping governors, tracking down grandmas and Epstein’s clients , the IRS should take notice , do more with less!

 

[tadmjones]

I’m just curious when Patriot Front is going to commit arson or worse on a random federal courthouse for the Dear Leader .

[Easy Truth]

1 hour ago, tadmjones said:

There are no long term studies on mRNA covid vaccines, none.

I can see that we don't know how it will effect reproduction, so the issue of children being vaccinated is still open. But for adults, my understanding is that development has been a very long time, at first causing serious heart problems until they figured out how to deal with that so it effect a small percentage now. I'm willing to hear your arguments but I have heard things like Covid is a bioweapon all the way to chips are being injected into people so you have to be specific about your position.

The only argument I have is against mandates. These things have risks and no government should be able to force people to take them. But as far as safe goes, an the right to try goes, with most Americans having had at least one shot, it seems like they are not that dangerous, meaning that 99 percent do okay based on what I have seen. A seventy year old has to assess what risk they want to take and I can understand if they do or even if they don't get vaccinated.

[tadmjones]

13 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

I can see that we don't know how it will effect reproduction, so the issue of children being vaccinated is still open. But for adults, my understanding is that development has been a very long time, at first causing serious heart problems until they figured out how to deal with that so it effect a small percentage now. I'm willing to hear your arguments but I have heard things like Covid is a bioweapon all the way to chips are being injected into people so you have to be specific about your position.

The only argument I have is against mandates. These things have risks and no government should be able to force people to take them. But as far as safe goes, an the right to try goes, with most Americans having had at least one shot, it seems like they are not that dangerous, meaning that 99 percent do okay based on what I have seen. A seventy year old has to assess what risk they want to take and I can understand if they do or even if they don't get vaccinated.

Are you saying that five or seven years ago they had volunteers for a covid vaccine trial that showed high incidences of heart damage and they lowered the risk , not eliminate ?, and then rolled out a safe formulation in the last two years ?

Or are you referring to the studies since the ‘identification’ of the virus conducting on humanized animal tissues that showed biological damage and were reformulated ? 

Edited August 9, 2022 by tadmjones

[Easy Truth]

9 minutes ago, tadmjones said:

Are you saying that five or seven years ago they had volunteers for a covid vaccine trial that showed high incidences of heart damage and they lowered the risk , not eliminate ?, and then rolled out a safe formulation in the last two years ? 

No, not Covid, but the flu. The raw potential was discovered in the 1960s. It's the delivery process that was slow to come by, and I think was too damaging. I can only conclude that it was tested enough, otherwise, I doubt that it would be accepted by multiple western countries. Unless all these countries are brainwashed by the same source.

I will grant you that there possibly is not enough time to be sure of side effects. But that does not mean the lack of time means you can be sure that there are statistically significant side effects. Especially with personal experience and seeing people around us, not falling and dying from the vaccine.

Unless of course, data is being suppressed. But if that is the case, we have to go by the indications, the evidence.

But this whole tangent is about how we get our valid information, including about the Ukraine situation. I can only speak in broad strokes, I don't claim to know specifics.

[tadmjones]

3 minutes ago, Easy Truth said:

No, not Covid, but the flu. The raw potential was discovered in the 1960s. It's the delivery process that was slow to come by, and I think was too damaging. I can only conclude that it was tested enough, otherwise, I doubt that it would be accepted by multiple western countries. Unless all these countries are brainwashed by the same source.

I will grant you that there possibly is not enough time to be sure of side effects. But that does not mean the lack of time means you can be sure that there are statistically significant side effects. Especially with personal experience and seeing people around us, not falling and dying from the vaccine.

Unless of course, data is being suppressed. But if that is the case, we have to go by the indications, the evidence.

But this whole tangent is about how we get our valid information, including about the Ukraine situation. I can only speak in broad strokes, I don't claim to know specifics.

So the annual flu vaccines are mRNA based? Or they developed a safe product , that at least for covid is less expensive to manufacture but it is not used ?

The tangent is coming off the idea that western media coverage is manipulated and propagandized to control the public for the regimes ends.

My point , without specifics about the jabs , was that the idea that they are proven safe is false. That false idea is being spread by an institution that until yesterday regarded mass vaccination campaigns in a population recently exposed to a novel respiratory virus was a less than sub optimal action. So what changed ? 

As to evidence , there seems to be an uptick in all cause mortality globally.

I’ve seen a report that claims in Alberta Canada in 2019 there were 500 ish deaths listed as no cause or cause undetermined in 2021 that category has a 3000 ish total. Weird right ? Probably more propaganda.

[tadmjones]

Looks like they are just gearing up actually.

 

https://www.uchealth.org/today/new-mrna-flu-vaccine-testing-launching-now/

[Easy Truth]

1 minute ago, tadmjones said:

So the annual flu vaccines are mRNA based? Or they developed a safe product , that at least for covid is less expensive to manufacture but it is not used ?

The tangent is coming off the idea that western media coverage is manipulated and propagandized to control the public for the regimes ends.

My point , without specifics about the jabs , was that the idea that they are proven safe is false. That false idea is being spread by an institution that until yesterday regarded mass vaccination campaigns in a population recently exposed to a novel respiratory virus was a less than sub optimal action. So what changed ? 

As to evidence , there seems to be an uptick in all cause mortality globally.

I’ve seen a report that claims in Alberta Canada in 2019 there were 500 ish deaths listed as no cause or cause undetermined in 2021 that category has a 3000 ish total. Weird right ? Probably more propaganda.

I'm willing to look at the reports but they have to be coherent. The uptick in mortality can be causes by the sudden change in economics and Covid itself, and lock downs and changes in life style so it can be refuted. Reports of undetermined this or that simply means, they are undetermined, until they are determined. You are deciding to be the determiner. It's just not enough.

The hold up here is the word "safe".

Is the vaccine safe enough for the government to mandate it? No, not even if it were 100 percent safe, there is NO place for government to do that.

Safe enough for someone at high risk to take it. Probably yes, including the manipulated media's reporting. The fact is that you are making an assertion based on some news source, or some information source. I am going with the media and my own personal experience and the recommendations of Doctors that I believe care. We could be wrong, but then, you could be wrong by that standard too, so the "you could be wrong" angle is a moot point.

For instance, I will grant you that Biden is corrupt, that Ukraine is corrupt, and that the Covid jab has risks involved. But Biden and a Republican congress is better than a Trump with a Republican congress, meaning gridlock is best. That is not based on news sources, just an over all assessment. Ukraine is corrupt, but not corrupt enough for the population to abandon and not fight and die for their country. Again, I don't need a special new source to see that. And with Covid, again, no mandate on principle, but is it as dangerous as ingesting same amounts of arsenic? no it is not.

[Eiuol]

3 hours ago, tadmjones said:

There are no long term studies on mRNA covid vaccines, none.

You are no different than people who place blind faith in institutions. 

Fear is a mind killer , you are fully boosted , right ?

Moving the goal post - you didn't say long term. It's not "blind faith", but then again, I don't think capitalism is out to get me. 

Indeed, I'm not afraid of either covid or the vaccines, but I'm not interested in trying to argue against the idea that capitalism is why the world is so terrible. It's worse than arguing with a leftist, because at least a leftist knows that they don't like capitalism. It could be stupidity, or could be that you are a victim of propaganda, or both. I can accept that you reach your ideas by lack of reason, it doesn't have to be propaganda. You insist that the only way I could come to a different conclusion is propaganda. 

 

 

[Eiuol]

I'm just going to log out and probably not log in for months.

[necrovore]

This thread has been like that long fist fight in John Carpenter's They Live. -- "Put on the damn sunglasses!" -- "No!"

Decades of dealing with religious people has taught me that some people get the facts correct but then draw incorrect and sometimes "rigged" conclusions from those facts. The correct solution to this is to throw out their "rigged" conclusions and draw one's own conclusions. It is not correct to say that, since their conclusions are wrong, the facts that led to them must also be wrong. That's not how reasoning works. You can't just say "well X is religious so his facts must be wrong; he is just making them up to support his religion." Often, such people are willing to accept the importance of having evidence, which is a point in their favor if you ask me. They will present correct evidence. But then they are using (some) bad abstractions to weigh that evidence, and they don't understand that it is necessary (and possible) to verify whether the abstractions are based on reality. They take their abstractions as givens.

Lower than the people "drawing the wrong conclusions" are people like the "mainstream media," who frequently roll out conclusions -- and repeat them over and over -- but they never show any facts at all that allegedly lead to those conclusions. If you ask for such facts you get an argument from intimidation, like, "you couldn't possibly be one of those people who disbelieves us, could you?" For example, I don't know how many times I've heard the phrase "Trump's false claims about the election." That phrase is an evaluation, but they repeat it over and over, word for word. They repeat "ready-made" evaluations like that for a lot of subjects. Where is the evidence for their evaluations? Well, if you don't already know the evidence, you must be one of those people. They smear Ayn Rand in the same way. They echo a lot of ready-made conclusions about her, but they rarely have the quotes from her to back them up (and when they do they are quoting her out of context, which is enough to fool the kind of people who already wouldn't be caught dead reading one of her books because their minds are already made up.) They do the same thing with Trump's speeches.

An unsupported "ready-made" evaluation is arbitrary in and of itself, and forces most thinking people to seek out alternative sources of information. It is possible that some of these alternative sources are lying, but if that were the case, it would be easy to show it, with more facts and context. However, the people presenting this information know this; they understand the importance of getting their facts right, even if their abstractions are wrong. The mainstream media is more like "trust us," which is suspicious.

So put on the damn sunglasses.

p.s. Mostly I stay out of this Russia stuff because I don't trust either side. I've already discussed the US side, which acts like the "mainstream media" above. However, the Russians, being at war, can lie boldly about facts, and then shoot anybody who threatens to expose the truth. That option is not available to the religious people in the US.

Edited August 9, 2022 by necrovore

[whYNOT]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:37 PM, AlexL said:

Why not directly to the AI Report ??? Or to a source which is NOT of one of the belligerents ?

Russia Today is 100% owned by the Russian government, which is party in the conflict. The minimum level of prudence would suggest to find, for yourself, another source. Towards the readers of OO, the minimum level of honesty would be the same - to refer to a source which is not suspect a priori of bias.

But no, for a strange reason, for years you have been taking your info from RT, you have been educated by it, you foolishly trust it. Your views about the West have been at least influenced, if not defined, by RT, despite of the - residual - skepticism you claim having on it.

And the western propaganda is owned - factually and morally - by the Ukraine Gvt. and military (and so on) - which is party to the conflict. So?

The minimum amount of "prudence" would be to follow every source discerningly, but you like to ignore that I've said so.

I have been following RT for 4 months. If there were several other Western newspapers which exposed contrasting facts, I'd obviously read and quote those. It is telling that there are not. They all sheepishly copy one another in essence. For propaganda to work, it has to be as universal as possible.

All news reports must be initially suspected of a priori bias and subjectivity, until found innocent (rarely).

It's useless explaining to you how indoctrinated in one, prepackaged, world-view you are.

I understand how oblivious to the bulk of information most people are: They have been prevented from hearing/seeing anything else but an easily-digested, constructed Narrative. In the interests of group-think, mind control. Anyway, all that is 'out there' may disturb their delicate feelings - and force them to think..

You have one standard by which to measure all the News you hear : Reality. Surely, you know this.

I see from you a conformist acquiescence to the unquestioning, moral Orthodoxy about this war. Which shows little grasp of "reality" - that which occurs and exists over and above and *despite*- what other people in news outlets inform you. Explaining, therefore, your belief, the ¬revealed knowledge¬ in western propaganda.

I keep repeating, it's not only what they tell you, it's what they don't. Did you understand Lawrence's simple but incisive explanation of the propaganda method?

In order to fill the 'omission gaps', by one or other media, one would seek out the most opposing sources and eventually, integrate one's knowledge. If you have the courage to face opposing info. It hurts to be disabused of one's pet premises, so for many, don't look!

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by whYNOT

[tadmjones]

8 hours ago, Eiuol said:

Moving the goal post - you didn't say long term. It's not "blind faith", but then again, I don't think capitalism is out to get me. 

Indeed, I'm not afraid of either covid or the vaccines, but I'm not interested in trying to argue against the idea that capitalism is why the world is so terrible. It's worse than arguing with a leftist, because at least a leftist knows that they don't like capitalism. It could be stupidity, or could be that you are a victim of propaganda, or both. I can accept that you reach your ideas by lack of reason, it doesn't have to be propaganda. You insist that the only way I could come to a different conclusion is propaganda. 

 

 

I am flummoxed at the idea that I am blaming or attacking the idea of protecting individual rights.

I am saying there is a drooling beast loose in the world and it is devouring the world and its effects are showing up the west. 

Oist theory of history on the importance of ideas and philosophy and how they shape or drive society is a theory I believe. I’m saying it’s later than we think , the universities were captured by the marxists/neomarxist/Pomo leftist rot at least two generations ago and have been attacking and weakening the ability for our society to provide an environment for the practice of human flourishing aka capitalism.

[tadmjones]

CBS is doing their part to combat propaganda , their own . They took down a documentary that followed the flow of aid and money into Ukraine and reported that only about 30% made to the end users so to speak.

The 30% figure was referring to the aid in April, it’s been fixed since then , any bets if they post stories or explanations on how it is now really close to 100%?

[whYNOT]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:37 PM, AlexL said:

Why not directly to the AI Report ??? Or to a source which is NOT of one of the belligerents ?

 

Matter of factly, this neutral (French-Swiss?)military observer who was involved in Ukraine, produces a wider perspective, up until this April. Especially, he mentions events about the (Silent) Civil War and Minsk. And exposes the notorious "Mariupol Maternity Hospital Assault" to be another PR deceit. Several unquestioned 'narratives' held by the West take a hit, be prepared.

https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/

Edited August 10, 2022 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

Considering a host of violations against their citizens, discrimination and internal corruption, it is Ukraine which should have, years ago, been placed under sanctions by the EU and made to fulfill their obligations.

Probably, averting the invasion. Except one might guess Kyiv had friends in high places.

Edited August 10, 2022 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:10 AM, AlexL said:

 

I wonder if this - inappropriate - behavior has something to do with the fact that a week ago you were in the "Senior Member" group, now you are a „Regular”…

 

"Inappropriate behavior" according to whom? The authority figures around here, I guess.

Thanks for pointing out my demotion, I'd have not noticed it myself.

I noticed one poster, the OP, you got upset about for bucking the O'ist Moral Narrative, ("evil" on one side, exclusively) soon disappeared. I could surmize you are again petitioning the powers that be to shut down dissenting thinkers. 

Nostalgia for the old days: Objectivism's dogmatic authoritarianism.

Up the Regulars!

Edited August 10, 2022 by whYNOT

[Doug Morris]

whYNOT's profile says both "regulars" and "senior member".   So does mine.   AlexL's profile says both "regulars" and "member".   Maybe it would help if the moderators explain exactly what this terminology means.

 

[Doug Morris]

I did a little research and found, as I thought, that categories like "Senior member" are based solely on how many times the person has posted and are not subject to demotion.  Maybe we could still use a little clarification on "Regulars".

 

[tadmjones]

On 8/9/2022 at 12:10 AM, Eiuol said:

Moving the goal post - you didn't say long term. 

 

My claim was government health institutions were claiming the vaccines were scientifically evaluated to be safe and effective. 
 

The safety of vaccine implies knowledge of long term effects. There was no data to verify the validity of those repeated statements, they were lying and people were persuaded aka propaganda.

[tadmjones]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:01 PM, Easy Truth said:

I'm willing to look at the reports but they have to be coherent. The uptick in mortality can be causes by the sudden change in economics and Covid …..And with Covid, again, no mandate on principle, but is it as dangerous as ingesting same amounts of arsenic? no it is not.

Here is an article that purportedly follows the official information from the UK government .

It appears vaccinated people in all age groups die more than the unvaccinated cohorts.

https://expose-news.com/2022/08/07/pfizer-docs-official-data-covid-vaccines-causing-depopulation/

[Doug Morris]

12 hours ago, tadmjones said:

Here is an article that purportedly follows the official information from the UK government .

Wikipedia says that this source is a source of misinformation.

Can you offer us any information about its reliability?

 

[tadmjones]

2 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

Wikipedia says that this source is a source of misinformation.

Can you offer us any information about its reliability?

 

That's probably enough right there !

 

[tadmjones]

The aricle includes a link ( this first "clickable" thing) that directs to this

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending22july2022

Edited August 11, 2022 by tadmjones