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Star Trek Pbem

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Sparhawk

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I am not sure which forum to post this one so if the Moderators feel that it is the wrong forum please move it

I have just created a character for a Star Trek PBEM (Play By Email) game that I was planning on joining which is an Objectivistic (Or at least Objectvistic student) bartender. I am looking forward to see how this will work out...is it possible to have Objectivism in the Star Trek universe...for myself I think that it should...if anyone has any experience of this I would be happy to get some advice on what I can think of...any pointers will be interesting.

Cheers

Anders

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I am a big Star Trek Fan, but I have never heard of an E-Mail based game - could you explain how it works? What time period would the game be set in? Would it be in the Original Series, TNG, Voyager, or DS9? Also, where is your bar located? Is it on a ship (like 10-Forward), or on a star base, or planet?

I am not sure how different role-playing an Objectivist bartender would be than role-playing a non-Objectivist one. Or is the difference the rational, sage-like advice you would dispense to your customers?

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I wouldn't say that Star Trek is communist, although some parts may make you think so. The Original Series mentioned currency and indicated that private property exists. TNG had that episode where Picard explained that they no longer used currency - but this is inconsistent with the rest of the show. It is hard to evaluate what system of government exists in that universe because they mostly focus on military star ships and not as much on civilian life. Those who find fault in the show because of this are nitpickers, as 99% of the time, the episodes value freedom, human rights, and competency as well as being well written and acted.

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I've never seen Star Trek and I don't know what the "Star Trek universe" implies. However, you should understand that Objectivism is a philosophy for living on Earth. Its base (metaphysical axioms) is rooted in the facts of the universe as it really exists.

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However, you should understand that Objectivism is a philosophy for living on Earth.
The premises of Objectivism are valid no matter what planet you are on, or even whether or not you were on a planet. Objectivism is a philosophy for rational beings to live according to their nature.
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I wasn't using "Earth" in the context of a specific planet. I was using Ayn Rand's own words for describing the philosophy as being relevant to the universe as it exists. The philosophy wouldn't apply to a hypothetical universe in which A is not A.

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I am a big Star Trek Fan, but I have never heard of an E-Mail based game - could you explain how it works? What time period would the game be set in? Would it be in the Original Series, TNG, Voyager, or DS9? Also, where is your bar located? Is it on a ship (like 10-Forward), or on a star base, or planet?

It works like a RPG but you use emails instead one can say that it works like a movie script in a sense...if you are interested in learning more you can either go to fleet's webpage Obsidian Fleet or go to the ship's webpage USS London

It is a 10-forward type bar similiar to what Guinan had in TNG, however the timeframe is set just after Voyager and DS9 in 2381

I am not sure how different role-playing an Objectivist bartender would be than role-playing a non-Objectivist one. Or is the difference the rational, sage-like advice you would dispense to your customers?

I haven't actually planned that yet, but first of all the character needs to live his live as an Objectivist or at least as a student of Objectivism. But the advice should be rational and in the Objectvisitic spirit, this is a rather experimental character for myself to test it out and also to make my own knowledge of Objectivism better.

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I wasn't using "Earth" in the context of a specific planet. I was using Ayn Rand's own words for describing the philosophy as being relevant to the universe as it exists. The philosophy wouldn't apply to a hypothetical universe in which A is not A.

I tend to disagree with this for the characters A would still be A in their universe, sure it is not our universe but for the characters A would be A

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sure, there can be an Objectivist barowner on PBE.....just know that the world of star trek is completely communist. look at the currency system, the gov't controlled media, private property and property rights....well that's just a start.

Sure it is not an ideal universe for an Objectivist...so what? Earth as we know aren't either....in the Star Trek Universe there is gold pressed latinum for example and you can make profits and so on. I wouldn't call the Star Trek universe communist, trade and so on also exists, and as I said it is an experimental character, if it will not work out, I will have a back up character created.

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I tend to disagree with this for the characters A would still be A in their universe, sure it is not our universe but for the characters A would be A

What are you disagreeing with?

I didn't make any claims about the Star Trek universe. In fact, I said that I am unfamilar with it. What I did say was that Objectivism is a philosophy created in accordance with the universe as it exists. It depends entirely on the axioms of metaphysics. If these axoims were, hypothetically, non-existent (a hypothetical is what you are dealing with in this situation, and it is only in a hypothetical that they could cease to be axioms) then Objectivism would no longer be possible.

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Yeah but the "Star Trek Universe" is supposed to be our universe just several

hundred years in the future. Therefore, Objectivism should apply. Also I've heard that Gene Rodenberry created TOS loosely based on Objectivisist priciples and was a fan of Ayn Rand.

As a side note I didn't think there was a person alive today who hadn't watched some form of Star Trek. That's a first for me. :thumbsup:

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Sure it is not an ideal universe for an Objectivist...so what? Earth as we know aren't either....in the Star Trek Universe there is gold pressed latinum for example and you can make profits and so on. I wouldn't call the Star Trek universe communist, trade and so on also exists, and as I said it is an experimental character, if it will not work out, I will have a back up character created.

Gold pressed latinum? Those are used for external transactions, while most other transactions are accomplished with 'credits' which are not easily converted into other assets, poor liquidity typically is a result of communism. And trade exists??? When was the last time you saw something being bought and sold between two federation citizens? Or the last time you saw a logo that didn't represent the Federation? No stock market, no weapons for the average joe (that I can recall), no personal vehicles, state-run schools.....

Seriously. And besides, wasn't it Piccard who said something to the effect of profit is not an incentive anymore?

Ok, so i've beat a dead burro. I think you'll probably be wildly succesfull with your bar, being that's the only place I can remember any transactions ever taking place in the Star Trek universe. In fact, I kind of dig the idea of the way this is all set up...makes me wonder if something could be set up along the lines of galt's gulch.

All the best, of course....and keep us updated if you can!

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What are you disagreeing with?

I didn't make any claims about the Star Trek universe. In fact, I said that I am unfamilar with it. What I did say was that Objectivism is a philosophy created in accordance with the universe as it exists. It depends entirely on the axioms of metaphysics. If these axoims were, hypothetically, non-existent (a hypothetical is what you are dealing with in this situation, and it is only in a hypothetical that they could cease to be axioms) then Objectivism would no longer be possible.

What I disagree with is that Objectivism would not be possible if that universe was a real universe, for those characters that universe is true and therefor A=A is applicable to those characters

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Gold pressed latinum? Those are used for external transactions, while most other transactions are accomplished with 'credits' which are not easily converted into other assets, poor liquidity typically is a result of communism. And trade exists??? When was the last time you saw something being bought and sold between two federation citizens? Or the last time you saw a logo that didn't represent the Federation? No stock market, no weapons for the average joe (that I can recall), no personal vehicles, state-run schools.....

Seriously. And besides, wasn't it Piccard who said something to the effect of profit is not an incentive anymore?

Ok, so i've beat a dead burro. I think you'll probably be wildly succesfull with your bar, being that's the only place I can remember any transactions ever taking place in the Star Trek universe. In fact, I kind of dig the idea of the way this is all set up...makes me wonder if something could be set up along the lines of galt's gulch.

All the best, of course....and keep us updated if you can!

Thanks, I will. I am not sure if the Star Trek universe could be turned in any Objectivistic way, however that is a part of the experiment on my part to see how other characters in that universe would react (The Ferrengi's were businessmen, but in my view dishonest businessmen) to a person that is being capitalistic, if it would work.

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Gold pressed latinum? Those are used for external transactions, while most other transactions are accomplished with 'credits' which are not easily converted into other assets, poor liquidity typically is a result of communism. And trade exists??? When was the last time you saw something being bought and sold between two federation citizens? Or the last time you saw a logo that didn't represent the Federation? No stock market, no weapons for the average joe (that I can recall), no personal vehicles, state-run schools.....

All the episodes of Star Trek are in a military context. The medium of exchange aboard a star ship would be different than if you were a normal citizen living on the surface of a planet. Off the top of my head, I don't recall anything specific about the government of the Federation, or if there even is a specific government of the Federation. Don't the individual planets, for the most part, govern themselves?

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I'm pretty sure its a Federation of planets. So its kind of like the US gov't. True the Star Trek stuff focuses on the military which has always been Autocratic by nature but its the science or I should say pseudo-science that makes it communist sounding.

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the science or I should say pseudo-science that makes it communist sounding.

Huh? :o I don't understand how the science they use throughout the series is communistic. Granted they sometimes are gobbledygook ie. quantum filament, but I'm not even sure you could classify any sort of science as American, Communist, etc. because science is an objective system impartial to philosophy.

Edited by Myself
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I posted a reply earlier but it was trash-canned. LOL.

Anyway the reason why there is no money/greed is the replicator technology. Stuff just materializes out of thin air. Well as we all know you cannot get something from nothing. Even if the stuff is reconstructed from other items you still need to mine and transport the raw materials. You need an economy and therefore money. Its not a very well thought out aspect of Star Trek and its been brought up before. I notice in Enterprise that they don't have Replicator Technology yet but I stopped watching it, maybe they came up with an explanation. TNG was the worst show for promoting bad ideas and bad science IMO. I still enjoyed the show when I was younger though.

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I don't recall getting the impression that the replicator created something out of nothing. Clearly, in terms of present-day technology, all kinds of raw materials would be needed to create what they made. However, I do vaguely recall that they needed some form of fuel to run the ship. Is this accurate? If it is, in this sense all their systems ran off of a basic energy source and the advanced technology managed the rest. Think of a submarine's nuclear reactor, but combine it with advanced technology that can reorder fundamental elements to recreate most anything. Perhaps they were able to convert energy into matter, thus providing the raw material for this reordering.

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You raise an interesting point, but it still rests on the premise that they have no money. I only know of one episode early on in TNG where Picard explains to a reanimated businessman that money was fazed out and that they only strive to "better themselves". The Original Series used currency, and I don't remember that they ever mentioned this lack of money ever again. If you had happened to miss that episode (somewhere in Season 1 or 2) you could easily infer that trade still existed. Also, you must remember that just because the Federation doesn't issue money doesn't mean that the planets that make up the Federation don't have money. I am pretty sure that the different planets have their own respective currency. And even if they don't have money you can still watch and enjoy the other couple hundred episodes that don't mention it.

As for the replicator technology - it does make sense somewhat in theory. Basically the ship is powered a controlled matter/anti-matter reaction in the warp core. This energy is then channeled by the ship's computer which through unknown technology takes that energy and transforms it to matter using molecular patterns. Hence food is "replicated" apparently from nowhere. It is a farfetched concept but acceptable once you realize how much other incredible things they could do (such as the holodeck, antigravity, tractor beams, force field etc.).

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