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About the Russian aggression of Ukraine

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AlexL
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6 hours ago, whYNOT said:

For evidence, look at [...]

You need to make these deductions for yourself.

I am not going to make MYSELF deductions in order to prove YOUR claim.

Therefore, I am still waiting the proof of your claim:

Quote

Fact: with the build up by NATO training and weaponizing the Ukrainian army was preparing to demolish the Donbas in the past Spring.

And "proof" doesn't mean your usual bla-bla which tries to deduce facts from words, but presenting

  • either an admission of this from a high-ranking Ukrainian official,
  • or a (captured?) Ukrainian military plan of such an operation,
  • or something of that kind, nothing less.

(The Russian propaganda claimed in March 2022 that a military plan for attacking the occupied Donbass was found - in some captured Ukrainian headquarters. Unfortunately they never presented it, as a proof that Russia prevented in fact an Ukrainian attack...) 

So: the proof !

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3 hours ago, tadmjones said:
4 hours ago, AlexL said:

What claim of mine does this disprove ?

It pertains to an inference about [...]

"It pertains to an inference..."

Just quote my claim and then disprove/refute it.

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2 hours ago, whYNOT said:
4 hours ago, AlexL said:

What does this have to do with what I wrote - that the theme - "we (Putin's Russia) didn't even begin fighting, but now etc. etc." is new for you and appeared after it started to be developed on the Russia's governmental media ???

The necessity, given the West's ferocity [...]

Just show where you stated that Russia will step-up its military effort and will start fighting for real only after many, many months after the beginning. With a quote. And spare me the subterfuge that is was "implicit", that it was "obvious", that Putin is not such an idiot as to ignore the 3-to-1 rule, etc., etc.

Just a quote. Don't even bother without it.

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1 hour ago, AlexL said:

I am not going to make MYSELF deductions in order to prove YOUR claim.

Therefore, I am still waiting the proof of your claim:

And "proof" doesn't mean your usual bla-bla which tries to deduce facts from words, but presenting

  • either an admission of this from a high-ranking Ukrainian official,
  • or a (captured?) Ukrainian military plan of such an operation,
  • or something of that kind, nothing less.

(The Russian propaganda claimed in March 2022 that a military plan for attacking the occupied Donbass was found - in some captured Ukrainian headquarters. Unfortunately they never presented it, as a proof that Russia prevented in fact an Ukrainian attack...) 

So: the proof !

Really, think.

a. Was there an 8 year assault on the breakaway East? Yes?

b. Was it going to extend into 2022? Well, of course. Why rationally would Kyiv have 'a change of heart', cease fire and suddenly return to Minsk ?

c. Were NATO, the Brits and others, not-so-covertly training and arming the UAF, at least documented during 2021 if not before?

What FOR? That Kyiv could attack, maybe... Moldava? Romania? OR, the Donbass? who knows, perhaps invading Russian forces, subsequently (- to those devious western minds in charge).

Therefore, forget the quibbles about "proof" of a possible greater and concerted attack this year, it's superfluous: the fighting would not stop into year 9 or 10 or until Ukraine had devastated the Donbass.

Okay? Without (or with) a fresh assault planned last Spring, the danger to those inhabitants was imminent and everyday, about 14,000 and counting.

Q: Is it your conviction Putin should have ignored them, turned a blind eye and let the conflict fester? 

 

Edited by whYNOT
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1 hour ago, AlexL said:

Just show where you stated that Russia will step-up its military effort and will start fighting for real only after many, many months after the beginning. With a quote. And spare me the subterfuge that is was "implicit", that it was "obvious", that Putin is not such an idiot as to ignore the 3-to-1 rule, etc., etc.

Just a quote. Don't even bother without it.

 

Limited numbers for a limited operation.

As situations change, one needs to adjust objectives. So obvious, I need not say it.

I said openly that Ukraine could not win from the beginning. Exactly because: 1. Russia was only after "liberating" the Donbass and securing Crimea. (Again, the Russian numbers, and the military actions...assuming one cannot believe what Lavrov and Putin officially stated).  2. Russia has much bigger reserves and its arms production is greater than any country, and the supply logistics were not a problem, having borders close by.

Suit someone's words to actions, and you might get close to the truth.

Edited by whYNOT
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16 minutes ago, AlexL said:

Again, you deduce facts from words. Stop this farce. Come up with a direct proof, or go away.

The facts are unpalatable to you. I've given dozens of experts who provide facts. What would I expect but anger from anyone finding out their supplied 'facts' were all wrong, part wrong, or as I repeated, "omitted"? There are going to be many who slowly uncover the lies, reality will be harsh. 

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2 minutes ago, whYNOT said:
28 minutes ago, AlexL said:

Again, you deduce facts from words. Stop this farce. Come up with a direct proof, or go away.

The facts are unpalatable to you. I've given dozens of experts who provide facts. ...

Then put here the proof(s) these experts provided for their facts.

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16 minutes ago, whYNOT said:
1 hour ago, AlexL said:

Just show where you stated that Russia will step-up its military effort and will start fighting for real only after many, many months after the beginning...

Just a quote. Don't even bother without it.

Limited numbers for a limited operation.

As situations change, one needs to adjust bla bla...

Where is the quote from where you stated that Russia will step-up its military effort and will start fighting for real only after many, many months after the beginning???

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8 minutes ago, AlexL said:

Where is the quote from where you stated that Russia will step-up its military effort and will start fighting for real only after many, many months after the beginning???

What? This is too trivial. Could I have predicted - back then - Russia would need to do so, step up, several months later? Naturally not.

But as things escalated on the Ukraine/West side, (and any hopes for negotiations went out the window) it was common sense they would and they are.

Why does this petty thing worry you?

 

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11 minutes ago, Craig24 said:

For Putin there was always the option not to invade.  

Yes.

And next year? I don't believe the security situation would have improved for Russia.

Edited by whYNOT
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10 hours ago, Craig24 said:
10 hours ago, whYNOT said:

I don't believe the security situation would have improved for Russia.

I have to ask... what do you mean by Russia's security situation?  Who was or is planning/threatening to attack or invade Russia?

Oh, don't you know already ?

In the last 15 years USA/NATO were encircling Russia and were about to jump on her neck, to strangle her and get their hands on her natural resources. But Putin, after kindly warning them, was forced to start a preventive operation, a gentle one to begin with🤣

Edited by AlexL
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11 hours ago, Craig24 said:

I have to ask... (I may regret this).... what do you mean by Russia's security situation?  Who was or is planning/threatening to attack or invade Russia?

Ah, just that some people and countries do somehow object to a neighbor plonking nuclear-payload missile bases close by, like 10 minutes flight from their capitals. Silly, I know. You'd find that tolerable over in your country, wouldn't you (?), so why the fuss Putin's been making about Ukraine potentially getting nuke capability presented by that benign, 'defensive' organization?

Cynically called whataboutism, no - it's  a solid principle. Morally principled or unprincipled actions have objective base, regardless of who's involved. Wrong in Cuba, wrong in Ukraine.

Each nation or individual has a right to protect their own safety and well-being. It/he/she can lay down a red line that others cross at their risk.

Goes also for outsiders helping build a great army for your unfriendly neighbor. For what target? Could it be you?

Every nuke-owning nation makes use of their nuclear weapons constantly; the guy who points a gun at someone and demands his cash. He doesn't need to ever fire the weapon. That's an "implicit" threat for illicit gain, goes over the head of some but apparently understood by Putin. 

Edited by whYNOT
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4 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Ah, just that some people and countries do somehow object to a neighbor plonking nuclear-payload missile bases close by, like 10 minutes flight from their capitals.

Yes becuz Russia has no nukes, no military, no history of belligerence and no territorial ambitions.  It's ok Europe.  Go right ahead and disarm if you wish.  Russia is no threat to you.  

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2 hours ago, Craig24 said:

Yes becuz Russia has no nukes, no military, no history of belligerence and no territorial ambitions.  It's ok Europe.  Go right ahead and disarm if you wish.  Russia is no threat to you.  

Yes, the Red Horde we were warned about. They are coming for Europe. You've been well conditioned.

Something you may consider, there's little 'they' can do to the West that the West hasn't been doing to itself: politically, economically, militarily, morally, intellectually - beginning with the last.

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9 hours ago, AlexL said:

Oh, don't you know already ?

In the last 15 years USA/NATO were encircling Russia and were about to jump on her neck, to strangle her and get their hands on her natural resources. But Putin, after kindly warning them, was forced to start a preventive operation, a gentle one to begin with🤣

You have not answered what you think Putin should have done re: the long civil war on the RF's border -- in which Russian-Ukrainians have been and are yet today being indiscriminately shelled and killed by their own government without end in sight (to be tedious).

Would you, being a president, have ignored it?

A war, not merely being passively ignored by EU and NATO, nor even intervened with to stop hostilities, but actively abetted.

No one asks "why". What was in it for the West?

(Ha! I deliberately gave you "gentle" anticipating a predictable response).

Edited by whYNOT
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31 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

You have not answered what you think Putin should have done re: the long civil war on the RF's border

A civil war started by who, against who?  Why is it Russia's problem?  Is the current conflict a rescue operation to save innocent victims of this civil war?  

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2 hours ago, Craig24 said:

A civil war started by who, against who?  Why is it Russia's problem?  Is the current conflict a rescue operation to save innocent victims of this civil war?  

You have such strong opinions on this topic you appear to know nothing about.

Tony has expanded upon this question many, many times -- you seem to be not paying any attention.

Edited by Jon Letendre
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5 hours ago, whYNOT said:

You have not answered what you think Putin should have done re: the long civil war on the RF's border -- in which Russian-Ukrainians have been and are yet today being indiscriminately shelled and killed by their own government without end in sight (to be tedious).

Is this - "Russian-Ukrainians have been and are yet today being indiscriminately shelled and killed by their own government" - a fact ?

What independent agency established that Russian-Ukrainians have been indeed indiscriminately shelled and killed ?

Hint: there were at least two organization which sent monitoring missions to Ukraine: OSCE (started its activity in March 21, 2014 already) and UN.

Important:

- OSCE had almost 1'000 observers from 45 participating states. They issue weekly reports. Now, anyone of the participating states can stop the entire mission if, for example, it considers the reports as being biased. From March 2014 to March 2022 Russia approved every time the extension of the mission, which means it wasn't dissatisfied. The mission was discontinues on 31 March 2022 because Russia vetoed it.

- the UN mission was mandated by the UNSC in 2014 and continued its activity until its extension was vetoed, in March 2022, by Russia

Therefore: did these bodies establish, in their 8 years long activity, that Russian-Ukrainians have been indeed indiscriminately shelled and killed? That, in other words, there was indeed a genocide there, with civilians being targeted specifically (vs. simply a war, where people - military and civilians - are killed on both sides)?

After you establish this as a fact, I will consider your question "what you think Putin should have done?"

Please stay focused on this question and try not to go on a tangent ...

Edited by AlexL
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"In other words, we can naturally deplore and condemn the Russian attack. But WE (that is: the United States, France and the European Union in the lead) have created the conditions for a conflict to break out. We show compassion for the Ukrainian people and the two million refugees. That is fine. But if we had had a modicum of compassion for the same number of refugees from the Ukrainian populations of Donbass massacred by their own government and who sought refuge in Russia for eight years, none of this would probably have happened". Jacques Baud

https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Flabourheartlands.com%2Fjacques-baud-the-military-situation-in-the-ukraine-update)%3AmCPlo3NZfi5WyE0zYb--ufnaUiI&cuid=3044921

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Baud:

"In February 2022, events were precipitated. On February 7, during his visit to Moscow, Emmanuel Macron reaffirmed to Vladimir Putin his commitment to the Minsk Agreements, a commitment he would repeat after his meeting with Volodymyr Zelensky the next day. But on February 11, in Berlin, after nine hours of work, the meeting of political advisors of the leaders of the “Normandy format” ended, without any concrete result: the Ukrainians still refused to apply the Minsk Agreements, apparently under pressure from the United States. Vladimir Putin noted that Macron had made empty promises and that the West was not ready to enforce the agreements, as it had been doing for eight years.

Ukrainian preparations in the contact zone continued. The Russian Parliament became alarmed; and on February 15 asked Vladimir Putin to recognize the independence of the Republics, which he refused to do.

On 17 February, President Joe Biden announced that Russia would attack the Ukraine in the next few days. How did he know this? It is a mystery. But since the 16th, the artillery shelling of the population of Donbass increased dramatically, as the daily reports of the OSCE observers show. Naturally, neither the media, nor the European Union, nor NATO, nor any Western government reacts or intervenes. It will be said later that this is Russian disinformation".

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On 12/2/2022 at 5:43 AM, whYNOT said:

so why the fuss Putin's been making about Ukraine potentially getting nuke capability presented by that benign, 'defensive' organization?

Russia has nukes, and you're talking about Ukraine "potentially" getting nukes? 

On 12/2/2022 at 5:43 AM, whYNOT said:

Each nation or individual has a right to protect their own safety and well-being. It/he/she can lay down a red line that others cross at their risk.

My going into another country with its own problems? 

On 12/2/2022 at 5:43 AM, whYNOT said:

Goes also for outsiders helping build a great army for your unfriendly neighbor. For what target? Could it be you?

 

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