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About the Russian aggression of Ukraine

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AlexL
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4 hours ago, Eiuol said:

 

I would've expected you to argue that I'm flat out wrong that Russia is a dictatorship, I find it bizarre and disheartening that instead your argument went to justifying a moral right for dictatorships to defend themselves. I wonder though if you read Grames' post and agree with him?

 

But I've made that claim a few times, an autocracy not a dictatorship. For you they are identical.

For the sake of argument and I accept Russia is one, it would have the right to defend itself against another rogue state, one which in some ways may be better, in others worse.

The main point, neither one should be assisted by free-er countries.

On that, many Ukrainians adulation of a Nazi-affiliated Ukrainian whose ideology sustains their Russian hatred and murder today - long after their Soviet foes have all but vanished:

"Quoting Ukrainian ultra-nationalist and antisemite Stepan Bandera, the Ukrainian parliament on Monday declared that “the complete and supreme victory of Ukrainian nationalism will be when the Russian Empire ceases to exist.”"

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj87P2076z8AhUeQEEAHQo1ACwQFnoECBQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fworld-news%2Feurope%2F2023-01-02%2Fty-article%2F.premium%2Fvictory-to-come-when-russia-ceases-to-exist-ukraine-parliament-quotes-nazi-collaborator%2F00000185-71dc-de47-afdf-f3fdb3410000&usg=AOvVaw3UWyuA19vQQXuk8m56oie6

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On 1/2/2023 at 12:13 PM, AlexL said:

You indeed called all the time for a diplomatic solution (and blamed Ukraine and the evil West to reject it).

Now: what diplomatic solution would seem to you to be fair and just? Forget about the feasibility, one that would be fair and just only.

Fair and just - Russia gets to absorb the four oblasts. The rest seems uncertain, like the possibility of continuing terror attacks (aided by MI6 and others) after negotiations.

With a hard victory that they are being pressed into by increasing NATO aid and many refusals to talk, by Kyiv, the signs are Russia will be inclined to dictate hard terms.

I hope that some accomodation in the treaty can be reached regarding Odessa, a historical city for Russians. To stay in Ukraine or both to share the port. Otherwise, Ukraine will be cut off and land-locked. A western "rump state", vulnerable to absorption by Poland. Some say the Poles are already looking ahead to take Galicia back.

Edited by whYNOT
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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, whYNOT said:
19 hours ago, AlexL said:

1. They (Putin, in fact) are doing it right now

Rubbish. The Russian Army are - right now - fighting to gain and hold only a section of Ukraine, and not having an easy time of it, no walk in the park.

No, my "right now" doesn't mean "in the last few weeks or months". The context being your claim:

Quote

That old mantra. Russia's "imperial ambitions". "They" did it once (or twice) they *can* do it again: they *want* to do it again.

it is clear that I am taking about the specific longer term ambitions that Putin expressed and not about the today's results of his severe February 2022 miscalculation.

13 hours ago, whYNOT said:

There's not a true military pundit who gives credibility to Putin's "imperialism", only armchair experts and the like, disconnected from reality.

When Putin himself expresses clearly and openly his imperial ambitions and also starts to apply them, I have no alternative but to believe him. You cowardly refuse to take note of his repeated written expression of his vision for Russia that he is trying to implement.

Here is one of his latest opuses (July 2021): "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

Edited by AlexL
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16 minutes ago, Doug Morris said:
15 hours ago, whYNOT said:

the Russian Empire ceases to exist.

Not the same as Russia ceasing to exist.

And not the same as Putin's Russia ceasing to exist.

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15 hours ago, whYNOT said:
On 1/2/2023 at 11:13 AM, AlexL said:

You indeed called all the time for a diplomatic solution (and blamed Ukraine and the evil West to reject it).

Now: what diplomatic solution would seem to you to be fair and just? Forget about the feasibility, one that would be fair and just only.

Fair and just - Russia gets to absorb the four oblasts.

Why is it fair and just ?

PS: And don't forget my challenge about your Putin/Lavrov claim about Russia fully abiding by the UN Charter in Ukraine events.

 

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16 hours ago, whYNOT said:

many Ukrainians adulation of a Nazi-affiliated Ukrainian

This is true, unfortunately. Many Ucrainians consider S. Bandera and other of his associates as heroes. Yes, in the 1930s Bandera was militating indeed for an independent Ukraine (independent from USSR, at that time). But:

  • it was with terrorist methods (assassinations), by associations with the Nazi Germany (which ignored his independence claims and finally jailed him as a nuisance),
  • he advocated for an independent Ukraine where the ethnic Ukrainians should be the masters, and all the others either deported, expelled or killed; a Nazi-like, Fascist state, in other words.

It is also possible that, in the search of cohesion against the invader, the authorities avoid alienating some categories useful on the frontlines.

This is bad and shortsighted, because the problem is: what kind of Ukraine will develop after the war? One where there are different categories of citizens, hierarchically ordered by ethnicity, or one which is a fatherland for all ?

Fortunately, given the strive for Ukraine to associate with the EU, the first version has absolutely no chance to be accepted. EU exercises already pressure un Kiev to revise the provision of the too restrictive  National language law (2019)

This illustrates again a fact I stressed previously, that important is not only against what one struggles, but also, and even more importantly, for what kind of society one struggles. 

But the events described in the the @whYNOTlink (BTW, the tweet was promptly removed from the Parliament page) do not mean that Ukraine is some kind of a Nazi/Fascist state: there are zero representatives of an extreme-right party in the government or in the Parliament.

All of the above, however serious it may be for the future of Ukraine, does not justify the intervention of Putin's Russia, because what happens there is not their f..g business, but also because Putin's Russia will not bring to Ukraine freedom, respect of individual rights, an independent justice and so on, but will suppress the rest of liberties they have (more freedom of speech, freer elections) and bring Putin's style of corruption. For Ukrainians this would be a much worse alternative.

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Another micro-interview with random people in Moscow by Daniil Orain. The question he asks this time is "What young Russians in Moscow think about Putin?". Published on January 4, 2023

More info see here.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Here is a video by a Russian (Moscow) guy who left Russia a few month ago and is now in Tashkent, capital of Uzbekistan, a former Soviet republic. He is an engineer.

Title : Putin's total war coming | New Mobilisation Is About To Start

I listened to it at speed 1.5. After minute 43 starts a Q&A session.
https://youtu.be/oNrBJynx_I4?t=84

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On 1/3/2023 at 9:49 PM, whYNOT said:

But I've made that claim a few times, an autocracy not a dictatorship. For you they are identical.

There is no meaningful difference between autocracy and dictatorship. Even by the definition of the map you showed me, it fits the definition of dictatorship that Rand provides. 

Anyway, all your arguments only work under the presumption that Russia, as led by Putin, is a free and sovereign nation that has legitimate moral and legal claims. 

Did you read Grames' post? Do you agree? 

 

Edited by Eiuol
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On 1/5/2023 at 5:14 AM, Eiuol said:

There is no meaningful difference between autocracy and dictatorship. Even by the definition of the map you showed me, it fits the definition of dictatorship that Rand provides. 

Anyway, all your arguments only work under the presumption that Russia, as led by Putin, is a free and sovereign nation that has legitimate moral and legal claims. 

Did you read Grames' post? Do you agree? 

 

Disputed, category error. Naming Russia "a dictatorship" presently, what was the USSR back then?

What would you call, say, North Korea? I think it's vital to discriminate dictatorship from autocracy.

If you heard from an average Russian he/she'd counter that there is plenty of personal freedom, and laugh at the propagandized West.

Conservative and reactionary, in great measure the reaction to the Marxist and atheist past - sure.

Russia synonymous with dictatorship, long expressed by all the warmongers and their media, is obviously to morally green-light any future (and present) belligerence on the country. They prepare the way to war in the public mind with a false identification.

Btw: The RF is Constitutional, officially Rule of Law. How much the government adheres to it or deviates is another story. I would venture that on paper Russia is a democracy although with an autocratic ruler.

http://archive.government.ru/eng/gov/base/54.html

And this an excerpt from an old article:

THE NEW CONSTITUTION OF RUSSIA:
MAIN PRINCIPLES AND FEATURES
by
Dr. Ninel S. Krylova"
On December 12,1993, the new Constitution of Russia was approved by the people
who voted for it at the referendum. This Constitution will replace an old one which was
adopted in 1978, when Russia was one of the Republics of the USSR' In 1991, the new
state--he Russian Federation- emerged. The transformation of the state has begun a
process of transformation of the Constitution. The old Constitution has been amended
more than three hundred times. 2 It was full of contradictions. It was quite obvious that
the new counry needed a new Constitution.
The new Constitution consists of one hundred thirty-seven (137) articles.3 It is
impossible to describe all of them in detail. However, there are some provisions which
are crucial for the future constitutional development of the country. The new Constitu-
tion should be the Bridge to Democracy. In the words of President Yeltsin, it is a
touchstone in Russia's transition from totalitarian dictatorship to democracy.
Even the first words of the Constitution show how great the desire of the people is
to depart from the long period of isolation and to become part of the world community.4
The Constitution is opened with the preamble which contains the following statement:
"We... the multinational people of the Russian Federation... , recognizing ourselves
as part ofthe world community, ... adopt the Constitution of the Russian Federation."5
Proclaiming Russia as the part of the world community, the Constitution declares
that "Russia shall be a democratic... rule-of-law state."[...]

 

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On 1/4/2023 at 10:20 PM, AlexL said:

But the events described in the the @whYNOTlink (BTW, the tweet was promptly removed from the Parliament page) do not mean that Ukraine is some kind of a Nazi/Fascist state: there are zero representatives of an extreme-right party in the government or in the Parliament.

All of the above, however serious it may be for the future of Ukraine, does not justify the intervention of Putin's Russia, because what happens there is not their f..g business, but also because Putin's Russia will not bring to Ukraine freedom, respect of individual rights, an independent justice and so on, but will suppress the rest of liberties they have (more freedom of speech, freer elections) and bring Putin's style of corruption. For Ukrainians this would be a much worse alternative.

Previous and present Kyiv Governments "made their bed" by their treatment of ethno-Russians, bowing instead to the ultra-nationalists and Banderists.

Often the case, a violent minority can hold political sway over the moderate majority who fear their instant brutality.

Sad, Ukraine lost its moral and "sovereign nation" bearings when it, government (and people), abjectly repressed part of the population and then conducted an "anti-terror" (Zelensky) conflict on those it had alienated. Not the best way to capture your citizens' hearts and minds.

Farewell Kyiv, we are not coming back...

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Shades of 30's Germany, religious persecution of the 'wrong' Orthodox Church.

"But - but, a Jew can't be a Nazi ...!"

 

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5 hours ago, whYNOT said:
On 1/4/2023 at 9:20 PM, AlexL said:

But the events described in the the @whYNOTlink (BTW, the tweet was promptly removed from the Parliament page) do not mean that Ukraine is some kind of a Nazi/Fascist state: there are zero representatives of an extreme-right party in the government or in the Parliament.

All of the above, however serious it may be for the future of Ukraine, does not justify the intervention of Putin's Russia, because what happens there is not their f..g business, but also because Putin's Russia will not bring to Ukraine freedom, respect of individual rights, an independent justice and so on, but will suppress the rest of liberties they have (more freedom of speech, freer elections) and bring Putin's style of corruption. For Ukrainians this would be a much worse alternative.

Previous and present Kyiv Governments "made their bed" by their treatment of ethno-Russians, bowing instead to the ultra-nationalists and Banderists.

1. Whose bed they made?

2. "their treatment of ethno-Russians..." What did that treatment consist of?

Putin claimed, starting with 2014, that a genocide of the Russian-speaking Ukrainians took and takes place. He used this genocide claim (and other pretexts) to justify the capture of Crimea and his continued support for Donbass separatism - that he incited and fueled with weapons and personnel all the way from 2014 to 2022.

How I already mentioned, even Putin did not believe that a genocide was taking place. As he did not believe that Ukraine was, in February 2022 on the verge to attack Russia together with USA/NATO, or that Ukraine was on the verge of arming itself with bio- chemical- and nuclear weapons.

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7 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Which one?

The most recent one of his in the thread a page or 2 back. 

8 hours ago, whYNOT said:

what was the USSR back then?

What would you call, say, North Korea? I think it's vital to discriminate dictatorship from autocracy.

Dictatorship for both of them.

But, you haven't made the case for discriminating dictatorship from autocracy. In what ways does autocracy fail to fit in with the criteria that Rand provided? Or even if not all autocracy falls under dictatorship, some autocracies definitely are, like Iran. Mentioning the Russian Constitution doesn't do anything, even the USSR claimed to be democratic, as was shown to you earlier. 

 

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On 1/7/2023 at 12:59 AM, Eiuol said:

The most recent one of his in the thread a page or 2 back. 

Dictatorship for both of them.

 

 

Clearly, it has been your intent to portray the abstraction "Russia" to be inherently inferior, in order to morally justify taking an anti-Russia, pro-Ukraine stand -- in the context of this conflict.

There's no logical-moral connection here; and you invoke a kind of "national determinism" - a mystical, "manifest destiny".

(That you cannot discern the USSR from the RF today, amazes me. Communism might have been somewhat worse than Conservatism...).

Nothing ¬had to¬ turn out a certain way for a nation or person, not from the best or the worst. Everything depends upon the minds, will and resolve of the individual people and their existing leaders.

Nor this conflict also, "had to" turn out this way. Nor - especially - allowed to happen. But a succession of cynical, bad faith actors in seats of power wanted a confrontation, now will continue supporting the war for as long as it takes.

Scott Ritter is one understands free will, why a country should be left alone, not become a cog in others' Grand Design. 

https://youtu.be/FkLU0vFAUQs

 

Edited by whYNOT
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On 1/6/2023 at 2:10 PM, whYNOT said:

"But - but, a Jew can't be a Nazi ...!"

Some Jews have been and still are attracted to socialism.

Some of the same Jews have been and still are zionist, wanting a jewish nation-state.

Therefore some jews are both nationalist and socialist.  

Hitler's racial theories are not compatible with jews, but they have their own racial theories and supporting religious mythos of being "the Chosen people."

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Grames said:

jews... have their own racial theories and supporting religious mythos of being "the Chosen people."

When I first read the Bible and did not yet know😁 that the mythos of the Chosen people has racist overtones, I understood the following:

in the (Middle East) universe there were many tribes A, B, C... and there were many - protecting - gods X, Y, Z... Each tribe had many gods and there were also gods common to several tribes. One day, one of the gods, let's say Y, offered to one of the tribes, let's say A, the following deal

if your tribe chooses me as its only god, then I will chose your tribe as my only protégé.

Therefore: the choosiness was reciprocal - I chose you because you chose me; Covenant.

PS: all anti-Semites (but not only they) interpret the Chosen people legend in racial terms.

PPS: One may read "A" as Abraham and "Y" as Yahweh😁

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15 hours ago, Eiuol said:

What did I fail to discern about them? 

Never mind. If you fail to see the differences.

Back to "autocracy", what looks clear to us in those other countries which have a perceived and/or legitimate "autocratic leader" blinds many to how autocratic their own Western nations have been turning. However, it is an elite *autocratic class" that's taken over, not one, but a large number of individuals from corporates bedded down with governments, in cahoots, and their huge number of loyal underlings. The Leader, he is easy to spot, contain and resist, but an entire autocratic class in power, (and combining/colluding with 'the elites' in other nations for global control) much harder or impossible. Anyone can criticize Putin, sure, but remember that adage about greenhouses and throwing stones.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Grames said:

 

Hitler's racial theories are not compatible with jews, but they have their own racial theories and supporting religious mythos of being "the Chosen people."

I notice from Israel the (I think) minority who are bitterly against Zelensky because of his allegiances have taken to calling him "the Kapo" - a Jew and sell-out to his people who assisted the Nazis (in concentration camps).

Zelensky can well be Nazi-like in his dictates without self-contradiction. To attract approval simply because he's nominally Jewish and therefore purportedly has certain inbuilt attributes is stupid. Really, my point is that the ambivalence about a "Jewish" Zelensky's dealings with neo-Nazis `proves` to the pro-Ukraine fans that there clearly exist no such people, and is all Russian propaganda. They'd like to deny and hide the ugly reality there indisputably are neo-Nazis in positions in Govt. and Army--and they support them.

A Jew - or anyone - hasn't "chemical predestination" to believe anything. While many Jews have followed their parents'/teachers' religious education, religious Jewishness is not in their blood.

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