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Canadian Health Care

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Old topic I'm sure, but this is a new article and court ruling.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/ocanadarx;_ylt...HBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

A few quotes

"For our government, it's a very strong indictment of the way they've handled the system," says Dr. Albert Schumacher, president of the Canadian Medical Association. "I hope it will move us forward in the debate. 'Private' has always been used by politicians as a very evil word, associated with America and for-profit. But it's not necessarily so."

For many Canadians, private healthcare wears the scarlet A - for America.

"There is no political support for American-style healthcare," says Michael McBane, coordinator of the Canadian Health Coalition, a healthcare advocacy group. He says he hopes provinces will toughen laws to prevent private insurers from entering the market.

Allowing people to buy private health insurance violates fundamental rights, McBane says, because not everyone will be able to afford it.

"You can't discriminate based on the size of your wallet on something as important as healthcare," McBane says. "I would say this is an aberration and the democratic process will correct it."

"There would be too much opposition," Ms. Lange says. "We see a lot of what goes on in the US - people go broke because they have a health issue."

In a split decision, the Supreme Court in June found that waiting lists for medical treatments were unacceptably long, causing some patients to suffer or die. The judges struck down a Quebec law banning private health insurance for procedures covered by Medicare. Patients like Mr. Zeliotis should be allowed to go outside the public system and pay for timely medical treatments through private insurance, the court said.

My synopses of the article: People who would have lived are going to die because socialist health care does not work as well as for-profit systems, but private medical care is a violation of rights because if everyone does not get the same care everyone should suffer and die equally to make it democratic. :dough::dough::dough: My question to you is: How can people be this stupid? :P

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How can people be this stupid?

Before I can suggest an answer to your question, I need to ask a clarifying question: What do you mean by "stupid"?

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My synopses of the article

I think that your synopsis is incorrect. The Court decided that, since the public system was not operating properly, and that people were suffering as a result, it was a breach of their rights under the Constitution. The Court decided that individuals should be allowed to purchase private insurance. The Court did not decide that private medical care is a breach of anyones rights. In fact they decided just the opposite-ie that denying a person's right to purchase private insurance is a breach of those rights.

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Perhaps a Canadian's perspective would be good.

People in Canada are pragmatic. In general they don't view universal healthcare as an absolutely essential pillar of the Canadian lifestyle. Only the politicians accept such dogma, and most people in Canada are too cynical to pay attention to politicians.

What Canadians do observe is the American healthcare system. Rest assured, the common view is that the American system is mostly private. People read about HMOs in the news and get the idea (correctly) that the American system is bad. Since they view the American system as private, they name private as the cause of the badness. This is, of course, silly, but hardly the fault of the average Canadian.

The quasi-socialist politicians take advantage of this common view and proclaim such things as "under the Conservative platform, you either get rich, or don't get sick" etc... This scares the average Canadian, and they conclude that private medicine is a bad idea that should be ignored.

So listen up Americans! Make a private system that works so I don't have to continuously argue with my silly Canadian kin.

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"Who is John Galt?"
I get asked this all the time because of the "Who is John Galt?" bumper sticker (probably the only one in Arkansas) on my car. :)

I think that your synopsis is incorrect.

I should have been more specific. From what I got out of the article many influential Canadians (politically and economically) believe in and fight for a state monopoly on medicine. The Canadian SC ruled that it is a violation of the constitution for the state to monopolize medicine (yea for them) but many Canadians are against the concept of for-profit medicine. This may not be true but that is not how the article presented it.

What do you mean by "stupid"?
Stupid: (one definition according to Webster and the one I meant) acting in an unintelligent or careless manner.

Allowing people to buy private health insurance violates fundamental rights, McBane says, because not everyone will be able to afford it.

waiting lists for medical treatments were unacceptably long, causing some patients to suffer or die (needlessly)
The word in bold print is mine not theirs, but it was implied.

People who believe access to good private health care is a violation of rights while forcing them to die while waiting for state sponsored health care are stupid. Or to make it more complicated this is what I am hearing them say: It is a violation of rights to give a person the right to choose medical care, but depriving people the right to choose a private doctor is a democratic exercise in human rights.

Stupid=Those Who Accept Contradictions

So listen up Americans! Make a private system that works so I don't have to continuously argue with my silly Canadian kin.

Our private system does work for the most part. Those without health insurance are still treated even if they can not pay. Case in point my mother who had two heart attacks without insurance. She received life saving care both time despite the fact she never paid a dime. Instead she filed bankruptcy. Today my five year old niece was admitted to a hospital for uncontrolled diabetes. The hospitals will never, and know they will never, see a dime for this care.

Now this is where the system begins to break down. Instead of my sister or her ex-husband (both high school dropouts who have histories of drug use) paying for their kid's treatment the hospital will increase charges on those of us who do have insurance (which increases premiums) or assets to pay for their care. For instance when my father-in-law had his pace maker put in about a year ago his ICU bill was ten thousand dollars a day. This did not just pay for his doctors, nurses, medicine and other cares but also for the meth addict in the next ICU room that could never, and will never, pay. If he doesn’t pay they collection agencies will come after him, when the meth addict doesn’t pay they don’t even bother to file charges.

Side note: my mother, niece, and father-in-law were seen and treated immediately. From the critiques I have read about the Canadian (as well as British and French) waiting lists on things like seeing endocrinologists and cardiac specialists all three would have died before receiving treatment.

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Stupid: (one definition according to Webster and the one I meant) acting in an unintelligent or careless manner. [...]

Stupid=Those Who Accept Contradictions

Samoht (Thomas Thornton, Jr.), I asked what you meant when you said some Canadians, because of their views on socialist healthcare are "stupid." You gave three answers, in your post 7: lack of intelligence, carelessness, and acceptance of contradictions.

Following are my views. First, intelligence is the ability to make connections between things, that is, to integrate and differentiate the material provided by the senses. I see two causes of low intelligence: genetic and willful. People who are born with a moronic level of intelligence can't help it. Other people, born with higher levels of intelligence, as a potential, undercut their intelligence through evasion -- that is, through choosing not to focus their minds on solving problems appropriate to their world.

I have no doubt that some Canadians -- like some people everywhere -- have an IQ too low to see the connections between the facts you point out. I also have no doubt, based on general observation of people, that some Canadians are evading the contradictions you name. However, I see no reason to believe that many Canadians are "stupid" in their views about socialized medicine.

There is another factor involved, a factor you have not discussed: The role of philosophy, in particular the role of ethics. If most Canadians are altruists, then they should support socialized medicine even if its results are destructive. They would, this way, be consistent with their premises.

As for accepting contradictions -- assuming they are actually aware of the contradictions as you have stated them -- that too, can be a matter of philosophical premises. Pragmatists accept contradictions as a natural part of reality. That is why they are pragmatists -- because they believe reality (the object of study by metaphysics) is not consistent, so why should their knowledge of it be consistent, and why should their actions, which are based on their knowledge, be consistent?

In summary, I would say that corrupt philosophy might explain a lot more about Canadian support for socialized medicine than alleged "stupidity" explains.

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In summary, I would say that corrupt philosophy might explain a lot more about Canadian support for socialized medicine than alleged "stupidity" explains.

That may be the case. However, it may be the case, and I believe it to be the case, that Canadians' support for socialized medicine is based partly on a widespread belief that that system has operated in Canada better than the US system has in the US. The discussion about changing the Canadian healthcare system to include private provision of services has arisen in the last number of years because the system has been failing. Until the last several years, the system appeared to Canadians to be working well, and Canadians were often sold the idea that public healthcare is preferable largely on a comparison to how poorly the US system was working.

In reality, that the Canadian system was actually working was a mirage(fraud) and the Canadian public (as well as many politicians) are understanding that private healthcare is the only solution to the problems. That is not to say that there are not people who are adamantly opposed to private HC, but the number of those are on the decline. What is likely to happen, and what has actually been happening on a large scale, is that medical care is becoming more and more privatized in Canada. The politicians are allowing the privatization to increase while at the same time suggesting that Canada's is still entirely a public system. It is not.

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BurgessLau, I agree and disagree at the same time.

First, intelligence is the ability to make connections between things, that is, to integrate and differentiate the material provided by the senses...I have no doubt that some Canadians -- like some people everywhere -- have an IQ too low to see the connections between the facts you point out. I also have no doubt, based on general observation of people, that some Canadians are evading the contradictions you name. However, I see no reason to believe that many Canadians are "stupid" in their views about socialized medicine.
Intelligence is the ability to make connections, and "stupidity" is acting in an unintelligent manner, however I do not understand how a person who supports a medical system (or any system) that is incapable of functioning, to the point where people needlessly die, while they fight a system (private health care) which is works can be described as anything other than unintelligent. Those who are making decisions on faulty information or lack the cognitive ability to understand are not at fault, but those in the article who understand that they are fighting to ensure Canadian deaths and evade the rational (using life as the basis) choice to scrap the system are unintellegent, i.e. stupid.

I have no doubt that some Canadians -- like some people everywhere -- have an IQ too low to see the connections

I didn't mean that Canadians are stupid per se. Only those Canadians in the article who support socialized health care are. I only mentioned Canadians because the article is about Canada.

If most Canadians are altruists, then they should support socialized medicine even if its results are destructive. They would, this way, be consistent with their premises.
True they are consistent and it is a rational outcome, but that does not make their decision of guiding philosophy non-stupid. Accepting the self destructive concept of altruism results in wide spread death, as seen with socialized health care, and is stupid by nature.

As for accepting contradictions -- assuming they are actually aware of the contradictions as you have stated them -- that too, can be a matter of philosophical premises. Pragmatists accept contradictions as a natural part of reality. That is why they are pragmatists -- because they believe reality (the object of study by metaphysics) is not consistent, so why should their knowledge of it be consistent, and why should their actions, which are based on their knowledge, be consistent?

In summary, I would say that corrupt philosophy might explain a lot more about Canadian support for socialized medicine than alleged "stupidity" explains.

This is the cause of our disagreement. The corrupt philosophy, in my view, is stupid and has lead to very stupid decisions. You are absolutely right about the views of Pragmatics, but I believe that it is a stupid choice because of the obvious wide spread destruction it causes to everyone, including the Pragmatics.

Samoht (Thomas Thornton, Jr.), I asked...

You cared enough to check my profile :D. Seriously, I have never devoted so much thought to the word and concept of "stupid" before. Thank you.

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This is back in the news. Some objectivists have sent me this video which I don't think makes the case well enough but it is something.

I was talking to a cardiologist that was not a supporter of socialist medicine but claimed that the British system kept more people alive and he cited the fact that the American system was always going for the newest medicine and he thought that was the problem. I don't understand the logic there but he said the British system was backward but steady. They put you on a regimen that has worked but we don't which seems to make a difference. 

This is medical policy and I am not a doctor that can analyse it competently, but I expected that socialism medicine should up badly statistically. Same with Cuba and eye surgery.

https://www.prageru.com/video/the-truth-about-canadian-healthcare/

I think getting a coherent understandable position on this is very important because socialism is most attractive in this "life and death" area.

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PragerU? They only make things understandable because they dumb it down and oversimplify enough to distort the thing they are talking about. That's why it doesn't make the case well enough. Do you have something better from a different source?

 

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