Israelo-Palestinian Conflict: 2023 Edition

[tadmjones]

30 minutes ago, EC said:

A nuclear strike. Which again should be directed at Iran.  To protect the United States,  Israel and the world from terrorism. 

But wouldn't the world just saved attack the US because of international conventions around first strike nuclear actions ?

[whYNOT]

On 4/1/2024 at 4:52 PM, EC said:

A nuclear strike. Which again should be directed at Iran.  To protect the United States,  Israel and the world from terrorism. 

I don't agree, but then I'm sure you'd not be in line with a bargain struck with the Houthis. Which will be regarded, if only at the discussion stage, as a weakening of resolve by the equivocating West, the reward for Houthis committing terror attacks by sea and Hamas in Israel, and USA making concessions to Iran. It supports my criticism of the changing Admins, in turn, obstructing or aiding Israel in finding resolution to the Palestinian/ME problems - their own way - with the moral-diplomatic (and not overtly military) assistance of the US, e.g. Trump's salutary Abraham accords (that if fast-tracked by this Administration could have thwarted Iran's and its proxies' aggressive, regional ambitions). 

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/us-could-remove-houthis-from-terror-list-in-exchange-for-red-sea-quiet-report-795268

 

Edited April 4, 2024 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

https://www.msn.com/en-za/news/world/the-us-state-department-is-amplifying-the-smear-campaign-against-israel/ar-BB1llXph?rc=1&ocid=socialshare&cvid=bd57065849154d769b6788baae5b00ca&ei=53

[whYNOT]

 

[EC]

On 4/3/2024 at 8:24 PM, whYNOT said:

I don't agree, but then I'm sure you'd not be in line with a bargain struck with the Houthis. Which will be regarded, if only at the discussion stage, as a weakening of resolve by the equivocating West, the reward for Houthis committing terror attacks by sea and Hamas in Israel, and USA making concessions to Iran. It supports my criticism of the changing Admins, in turn, obstructing or aiding Israel in finding resolution to the Palestinian/ME problems - their own way - with the moral-diplomatic (and not overtly military) assistance of the US, e.g. Trump's salutary Abraham accords (that if fast-tracked by this Administration could have thwarted Iran's and its proxies' aggressive, regional ambitions). 

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/us-could-remove-houthis-from-terror-list-in-exchange-for-red-sea-quiet-report-795268

 

Change your mind? Should have happened on 9/12, and with certainty needs to happen now or a totalitarian terrorist regime becomes "morally" sanctioned,  evil spreads exponentially, WW3 starts and civilization ceases to exist. 

Edited April 14, 2024 by EC

[whYNOT]

13 hours ago, EC said:

Change your mind?

nope

[EC]

4 hours ago, whYNOT said:

nope

Well, allowing an evil terrorist dictatorship that supports almost all terrorism and a large percentage of the evil in the world to attack a semi-free nation regardless of how "successful" without immediately leveling that illegal dictatorship either with conventional weapons and/or nukes means every principle of a moral free society has been tossed out the windows and civilization has already fallen.  It will be an extremely short amount of time now until it completely falls into the abyss and ceases to exist. Evil/nihilism/immorality has now essentially won and the world's existence is now numbered and that number can likely be counted in mere days now as a result. 

[tadmjones]

26 minutes ago, EC said:

Well, allowing an evil terrorist dictatorship that supports almost all terrorism and a large percentage of the evil in the world to attack a semi-free nation regardless of how "successful" without immediately leveling that illegal dictatorship either with conventional weapons and/or nukes means every principle of a moral free society has been tossed out the windows and civilization has already fallen.  It will be an extremely short amount of time now until it completely falls into the abyss and ceases to exist. Evil/nihilism/immorality has now essentially won and the world's existence is now numbered and that number can likely be counted in mere days now as a result. 

The Iranian mullahs and their regime are undoubtedly state sponsors of terrorism, ie Hezbollah, Hamas ect, but the current US administration has recently lessened sanctions against Iran that some have described as basically' giving Iran billions in cash' , true or truish does that make the US complicit in their sponsorship?

The US state department told Iran it would be best to inform Turkey of launching , what Iran calls reprisals for the attack on their embassy in Syria(?) that killed at least one senior Iranian military commander. The previous US admin killed an Iranian military official 'ex country' and admitted that they know the Iranians would retaliate will a strike but that the strike would be relatively 'minimal' and was allowed as an act of 'face saving'. So , basically, the big boys play at a game were strikes and counter strikes , tits for tats, are expected and warranted.

With Jordan seemingly siding with Israel in this particular 'tat' , it looks like something closer to an Abrahamic Accord thingy forming against Iran , than a prelude to doomsday, no ?

[EC]

On 4/14/2024 at 3:24 PM, tadmjones said:

The Iranian mullahs and their regime are undoubtedly state sponsors of terrorism, ie Hezbollah, Hamas ect, but the current US administration has recently lessened sanctions against Iran that some have described as basically' giving Iran billions in cash' , true or truish does that make the US complicit in their sponsorship?

The US state department told Iran it would be best to inform Turkey of launching , what Iran calls reprisals for the attack on their embassy in Syria(?) that killed at least one senior Iranian military commander. The previous US admin killed an Iranian military official 'ex country' and admitted that they know the Iranians would retaliate will a strike but that the strike would be relatively 'minimal' and was allowed as an act of 'face saving'. So , basically, the big boys play at a game were strikes and counter strikes , tits for tats, are expected and warranted.

With Jordan seemingly siding with Israel in this particular 'tat' , it looks like something closer to an Abrahamic Accord thingy forming against Iran , than a prelude to doomsday, no ?

I understand that there are a million details, but the point is that the principle of allowing a totalitarian dictatorship that is the principle creator of virtually all terrorism in the world to exist and continue its actions against anyone at any time, let alone semi-free nations like Israel and our nation, regardless of how it can be "defended against" is appeasement of evil and is why it ( 😉 proof of hacking domestic terrorism as I type this out,  but don't derail) this has continued to occur and will continue to occur and get exponentially worse. Especially, a rights violating terrorist dictatorship like Iran potentially possessing nukes.  Peikoff wrote after 9/11 that "states" that support terrorism need to be ended,  we didn't do and things keep getting worse and will continue getting exponentially worse as a function of time.  Ending totalitarian dictatorships that are the source of terrorism, mass death, and evil,  while enslaving their own population while attempting to enslave and/or destroy the entire world is the only moral action especially when they start explicitly attacking semi-free free nations and/or threatening their existence not to mention the existence of the world itself. 

[whYNOT]

On 4/14/2024 at 9:24 PM, tadmjones said:

 

With Jordan seemingly siding with Israel in this particular 'tat' , it looks like something closer to an Abrahamic Accord thingy forming against Iran , than a prelude to doomsday, no ?

The Saudis too

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/saudi-arabia-acknowledges-helping-defend-israel-against-iran-797201

"The best defense is offense", turned on its head. The exemplary manner in which the USN, USAF, the rest of the hasty coalition - and Israel's own defense systems responded, showed that robust defense plays a bigger role in modern war. The attack should have made plain Tehran's motives and methods to the world, how it operates through proxies sowing terror abroad, while playing the big innocent in diplomatic circles - and importantly, it will be less feared now by its neighbors. This stresses how swiftly the Abraham Accords must be revived. A consortium of "moderate" nations will feel more urgently empowered to escape Iran's grasp. The changes will adapt Palestinian minds to the new unity (feared by Iran) and proceed from there to serious negotiations with Israel. . ("Palestine", not the necessary *cause* and condition of M.E. peace, as Islamists and Israel-detractors have always deceitfully insisted - but an *effect* of peaceful national relations -- with Iran permanently cut out . . . 

Edited April 15, 2024 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

On 4/14/2024 at 8:42 PM, EC said:

Well, allowing an evil terrorist dictatorship that supports almost all terrorism and a large percentage of the evil in the world to attack a semi-free nation regardless of how "successful" without immediately leveling that illegal dictatorship either with conventional weapons and/or nukes means every principle of a moral free society has been tossed out the windows and civilization has already fallen. 

Who is "allowing"?

I'll first point out that Iran was not consistently, economically, financially, morally and intellectually, diplomatically and militarily isolated by the West -- as was e.g. their treatment of Russia, rightly - during - the Cold War (not after). I trust world leaders have now learned to not try to placate, bargain with and bribe ideologically-evil regimes "to be good".

Nukes are out. Ground forces will not fare well invading that mountain terrain against a formidable army. .

I've reminded before, that whereas Rand wrote any free nation had the right to invade a country and overturn its dictatorial regime - and also added, in effect, a "right" was not to be taken to be a (self-sacrificial) duty. The last gets forgotten.

So leave it to Israel. Better (I think) the gvt. bides their time for now, and later hits a few Iranian military and nuclear installations. Israel has to live there and Israel must decide.

The emphasis on ~defense~ by the US presently is the right one, I believe. (While they and their partners will have to face up to and eliminate the seaward provocations in the Gulf, this international initiation of force).

For Israel: This is a long-term commitment, not about floating principles and the instant gratification of beating the foe.

Edited April 16, 2024 by whYNOT

[EC]

Yaron Brook states my position and the dependence *only* correct and moral position on this issue here. No other positions are true or of value. 

https://www.youtube.com/live/KyTjUFpzYaI?si=DOjBYuy9g7DCxOFS

[EC]

14 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Who is "allowing"?

I'll first point out that Iran was not consistently, economically, financially, morally and intellectually, diplomatically and militarily isolated by the West -- as was e.g. their treatment of Russia, rightly - during - the Cold War (not after). I trust world leaders have now learned to not try to placate, bargain with and bribe ideologically-evil regimes "to be good".

Nukes are out. Ground forces will not fare well invading that mountain terrain against a formidable army. .

I've reminded before, that whereas Rand wrote any free nation had the right to invade a country and overturn its dictatorial regime - and also added, in effect, a "right" was not to be taken to be a (self-sacrificial) duty. The last gets forgotten.

So leave it to Israel. Better (I think) the gvt. bides their time for now, and later hits a few Iranian military and nuclear installations. Israel has to live there and Israel must decide.

The emphasis on ~defense~ by the US presently is the right one, I believe. (While they and their partners will have to face up to and eliminate the seaward provocations in the Gulf, this international initiation of force).

For Israel: This is a long-term commitment, not about floating principles and the instant gratification of beating the foe.

Yeah, because my position,  Dr. Peikoff's position, and Yaron Brooks position is a "floating" principle and the alternative has "worked" over the last 20+ years.  Oh yeah,  it hasn't and thousands have died, a dictatorship of evil has been appeased and passively had it's very immoral existence sanctioned when it has zero right to exist while enslaving its own citizens with the goal of enslaving the entire world and/or destroying it in the process while leaving the door open for the mass death of all 8 billion people on the planet.

Edited April 16, 2024 by EC

[whYNOT]

2 hours ago, EC said:

Yaron Brook states my position and the dependence *only* correct and moral position on this issue here. No other positions are true or of value. 

https://www.youtube.com/live/KyTjUFpzYaI?si=DOjBYuy9g7DCxOFS

Subsequent to Rand, authoritarianism/intrinsicism has caused divisiveness among Objectivists.

No, I don't take Brooks (or Peikoff) as 'the final word' (specifically, on applications - implementations of O'ism to reality).

Edited April 16, 2024 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

1 hour ago, EC said:

Yeah, because my position,  Dr. Peikoff's position, and Yaron Brooks position is a "floating" principle and the alternative has "worked" over the last 20+ years.  Oh yeah,  it hasn't and thousands have died...

You know what I'm reminded of? "The operation was successful but the patient died".

There's what happens when (total) context is dropped, and foreseeable consequences of actions ignored, and reality/real lives shoe-horned into pre-selected and usually inappropriate principles. 

I do not consider this is "acting on principles"

Edited April 16, 2024 by whYNOT

[EC]

On 4/16/2024 at 12:09 PM, whYNOT said:

You know what I'm reminded of? "The operation was successful but the patient died".

There's what happens when (total) context is dropped, and foreseeable consequences of actions ignored, and reality/real lives shoe-horned into pre-selected and usually inappropriate principles. 

I do not consider this is "acting on principles"

The consequences were foreseeable and written in plain text by Objectivists right after 9/11.

[Boydstun]

An explosion is now reported here, which may be some retaliation of Israel upon the recent aerial attack on Israel by Iran. CNN

[whYNOT]

Despicable Finkelstein with Greenwald, both in denial, trying to convince that warmongering Israel wants to "drag in" American/western forces; which Israel has never done nor asked for previously - with 3 major self-defensive wars (and intifadas) - in a war with Iran.

When not even a war with Iran is likely--or desirable for Israel. The latest warning round signaled this. Israel will not escalate (unless...) but will certainly continue fighting and ridding its immediate and present threats, Hezbollah and Hamas, the Iranian Islamist regime's terror "tentacles". (Its head will eventually rot, from within and outside, if the West does not soften its stance again).

Finkelstein is some sort of mad scholar, consumed with righteous hate. Hamas or Iran are clearly far more moral than Israel to his distorted mentality. I guess Greenwald has a following with the US ultra-isolationists, another one blaming Israel for being assaulted and selfishly protecting its people, come what may. . .

 

Edited April 21, 2024 by whYNOT

[whYNOT]

On 4/18/2024 at 1:35 AM, EC said:

The consequences were foreseeable and written in plain text by Objectivists right after 9/11.

Fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here?

But the "idea" lives on. When you consider what Islamic terrorism is supposed to accomplish, universal Jihad, and the methods they use to press the West into admission (if not submission) and gain sympathy and support - like now - from too many craven Western appeasers and admirers, "the war on terror" appears a misnomer--and contradiction in terms.

An idea/ideology won't be defeated any time soon with military might.

( Israelis already know this and what they will be faced with afterwards in Gaza).

The conquest of a regime and nation, with all its ramifications and heavy costs for the conquerors cannot be "context-dropped". Since, after a successful invasion and not too many losses (remembering, campaigns never go exactly according to plan), what's next? A large country (pop. 90m), the change of Iran's government an extended occupation and ongoing conflicts to quell splinter terror groups, etc.- all the while, support back home, decreasing - which would all be fruitless if much of the population is reluctant or resistant; just going along, lacking sincere convictions in "liberty, democracy", etc.

As I suggested, the countries which sponsor and advance Jihadi groups can be cut off by many means, left alone to fester and slowly implode. Including using selective force:  targets (training camps, missile bases, and so on) would be hit in retaliation for any belligerent activities. And, wherever terrorists act in the West, they and their cells and their organizers and backers (often legitimate-looking "NGO"s) should be hunted down, closed down and put away for a long time.

Proposing invasion or wholesale destruction of a host terrorist country is impractical therefore, immoral, I think. It amounts to concretism (anti-intellectualism) and altruism, a "cause" separated from the realities.

 With better ideas: Maybe the moderate majority of Muslims, and other Arab nations would eventually shun the Jihadi fantasy and those who enact it. Perhaps a much-needed Reformation of Islam would follow.

Edited April 23, 2024 by whYNOT

[SpookyKitty]

On 2/7/2024 at 6:21 AM, Pokyt said:

Simply calling the PLO "a secular government" without expanding on that is a lie by omission, or you're just gravely misinformed about the history of this conflict. The PLO was hijacking planes and engaging in general terroristy action just as much as Hamas is currently. The organizations which were the predecessors to Hamas were initially focused on stuff like charities and education, for which Israel provided funding and licenses to operate as providers of social services. The Islamist groups at the time did not openly harbor violent intentions towards Israel like the PLO did, and were even willing to work with the Israeli government in the pursuit of providing social services.

 

So where is this supposed lie by omission? The PLO did "terroristy" things so they cannot possibly be secular? You're literally just stringing loosely related factoids together hoping that they will somehow constitute a coherent argument.

 

Quote

This was obviously all revealed to be a smokescreen by the 1980s as the peaceful Islamist groups had started using their influence to spread a much more militant mindset, which was the catalyst for a series of events that lead up to the First Intifada. Regardless, it was simply Israeli's optimism about the honesty of Islamist groups that lead to the situation we have today. They didn't want to be at war, and they were swindled by wolves in sheep's clothing in an attempt to stop it.

 

Oh, ok, so I see you're agreeing with the "Israel is hilariously and dangerously stupid"-theory. Argument over.

 

Quote

I'm skipping over a large number of details here because I'm not your history teacher, and it's really on you for not knowing this stuff in the first place. At the moment, you're not even justified in having any sort of opinion on the present conflict considering you needed to have this explained to you. I would recommend you get off Twitter and read some basic history of Israel and Palestine before commenting again. Just to clarify, it's your fault that your opinion is dumb and you should feel bad about your dumb opinion because it sucks. Thanks for reading!

 

"Herp-derp, you're dumb because look at all this unrelated garbage I posted." Maybe focus more on BASIC LOGIC before insulting other people's intelligence.

Edited May 7, 2024 by SpookyKitty

[SpookyKitty]

On 3/31/2024 at 5:41 PM, EC said:

Good, but this is a proper war that the US should have immediately entered on the side of our closest ally to protect one of the only mostly free nations that has ever existed from an attack by the equivalent of the new Nazis. And its a war that should have been over in hours like most. 

😆
Israel is an ethno-supremacist genocidal apartheid regime formed by Zionist terrorist groups in the '40s. To call it "mostly free" is a blatant falsehood. France is "mostly free". Japan is "mostly free". Israel is complete and utter garbage by any rational metric, barely a step above a totalitarian state.

Edited May 8, 2024 by SpookyKitty

[EC]

50 minutes ago, SpookyKitty said:

😆
Israel is an ethno-supremacist genocidal apartheid regime formed by Zionist terrorist groups in the '40s. To call it "mostly free" is a blatant falsehood. France is "mostly free". Japan is "mostly free". Israel is complete and utter garbage by any rational metric, barely a step above a totalitarian state.

You are evil if this is what you think. Don't speak to me again. I don't interact with the explicitly evil who support terrorism, murder, rape, racism of aggressors in an unprovoked attack. And I mean it don't *ever* respond to me ever again.

[EC]

 

[whYNOT]

We will not evacuate. It's interesting how this (I assume) religious presenter - almost - acknowledges by name the worldwide altruism that has crawled out from the rocks. But he understands sacrifice. When one side blatantly worships a death cult and the other life, more should slowly become aware of this. It is their sacrificial guilt that fires up the hatred of vicious "pro-Palestinians". .

 

Edited May 8, 2024 by whYNOT

[AlexL]

6 hours ago, SpookyKitty said:

Israel is an ethno-supremacist genocidal apartheid regime formed by Zionist terrorist groups in the '40s. To call it "mostly free" is a blatant falsehood... Israel is complete and utter garbage by any rational metric, barely a step above a totalitarian state.

🤣🤣🤣

I suppose you can justify each of your claims with - sourced - facts; otherwise, you wouldn't be expressing them on this forum, would you?

Then please do.

Edited May 8, 2024 by AlexL