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Israelo-Palestinian Conflict: 2023 Edition

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2 hours ago, EC said:

Promoting false and/or evil ideas here (pragmatism in this case) used to (and still should) lead to a snapban.

Which provisions of the Guidelines would allow @stansfield123to be banned on the spot?

18 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

Bibi just held a press conference in which he told us that Gaza's days of existing as a separate political entity are over.

Did he? Do you have a reference?

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On 11/11/2023 at 7:50 PM, Eiuol said:
On 11/8/2023 at 10:19 PM, AlexL said:

Then tell me what do you find unclear in what I wrote. Here is it again:

I told you what I thought based on what you wrote. If you think my reasoning went wrong, you have to point out where. What you wrote is perfectly clear, I just think you don't realize the implications of what you're saying. 

What was your reasoning to arrive to what you thought from what I wrote? Start from what I wrote, with exact quotes, and show how you arrived at your conclusions.

IOW, using exact quotes from my original comment, explain the reasoning behind your conclusions.

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5 hours ago, EC said:

The ideal and the "proper" (practical) are identical when proper rational philosophy is applied.

Cool. But this thread is about war in Gaza. Not a lot of proper rational philosophy is being applied there. They're using their own babies as human shields ( the vid is in Japanese, sorry, it's what I happen to have in my news feed, but you don't need to understand the language to see the fucker with the RPG, walking into the hospital):


So what's your point? How exactly are you going to build an ideal society in a world where these people are your neighbors?

Individual rights are nonsense, in this context. Individual rights are the governing principle in a peaceful society, not when dealing with what you see in that video.

Edited by stansfield123
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It's restricted by Google, and I'm on your side completely when it comes to destroying the evil that does these things. The head should be taken off the snake (Iran), which should have happened on 9/12. That said, individual rights can never be negated. To negate rights is to move in the direction of the enemy and the dark ages. It's accepting the evil premises that causes these atrocities and beyond. It's what leads to Nazi Germany, Russia, China, N. Korea and even attacks on American citizens currently in the heart of America. Trust me I'm experiencing it currently and nobody will fully believe me But, that's okay, I'm about to have the full force of the Federal government brought against this group of criminal/domestic terrorists engaging in this. And it will be a test to see if our government and nation is still actually free depending on the action they take to end it.

Edited by EC
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I wonder if the forum will embed tweets?  Anyway, I deny being an Iranian propagandist of a useful tool of Iranian propagandists.  All Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) need to be put down forever.


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On 11/14/2023 at 4:58 AM, EC said:

To negate rights is to move in the direction of the enemy and the dark ages.

I disagree completely. Furthermore, I think this is the exact crux of the issue: I love the idea of individual rights, but if a thug refuses to respect my rights, I refuse to respect theirs. You think that makes me and the thug equally immoral. I do not. In fact, I think that my position is the ONLY MORAL ONE.

I think it's you and the thug who are equally immoral. I think someone who rejects your individual rights is immoral, and, if you still insist on treating this person as an entity with full rights: you are just as immoral. You are acting to promote and reward the same exact immorality that he lives by.

The only moral, selfish thing to do is to stand up to people who reject individual rights. To stand up to totalitarian Islam, and to stand up to all of its proponents.

P.S. The IDF, and Israeli intelligence, are actively seeking to collaborate with people in Gaza. They are giving anyone willing to stand against totalitarian Islam a chance not just to live, but to be greatly rewarded for it. That help may include financial reward, positions in a future, non-Islamist government, and even help escaping to a western country, in some cases.

That is ALL anyone should ever do for a hostile population which overwhelmingly supports a totalitarian ideology. Nothing more. Doing anything more would be sacrificing the good, for the evil. Pure altruism. The notion that people who subscribe to the ideology of totalitarian Islam (as most so-called "Palestinians" do, especially those in Gaza) have rights, is insane.


But, that's okay, I'm about to have the full force of the Federal government brought against this group of criminal/domestic terrorists engaging in this.

You're not though. Because it's not necessary. The Feds can dismantle any criminal/domestic terror group in the US by applying 0.01% of the full force they have at their disposal. Israel can't dismantle Hamas by doing the same. Israel must apply a lot more force than that.

The last time the US government brought its full force to bear was in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or, if nukes are off the table for rational reasons (hopefully it's obvious to all that these rational reasons do exist) ... well then the last time the US brought its full force to a battle, excluding nukes: was in Dresden ... which was actually more destructive than the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

None of those acts were war crimes, btw. And there's also virtually nothing Israel could do in Gaza, that's a war crime. Pretty much everything is a legal target. Hamas has its HQ under the biggest hospital in Gaza. So what could possibly be off limits? What could Israel possibly rule out as a Hamas stronghold?

Edited by stansfield123
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Retaliatory force against those that initiate force is a requirement of the government via the court system only as a principle of justice (or if a government isn't available in an emergency in self defense) or military action (including preemptive strikes) but that isn't a negation of individual rights it's how they are defended and the sole purpose of a moral government. What you can't have is renegade vigilantes conducting "justice" as that is evil and called anarchy.

Here's a good article explaining my position https://newideal.aynrand.org/humanitys-darkest-evil-the-lethal-destructiveness-of-non-objective-law/

While you are at New Ideal check out ARI's series of articles on this conflict also and maybe others on the nature of rights and innocents in wars. My views are identical and not because I read them before I held them but because they are explicit and well-written analysis of Objectivist principles applied correctly to all of these concepts and subjects. I'm not going to attempt to regurgitate well-written articles that share my exact views on this forum while typing on my phone.

Edited by EC
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On 11/14/2023 at 12:27 AM, stansfield123 said:

They're using their own babies as human shields

Their not-so-secret weapon against Israel. The "human shields" element - one that's vehemently denied by Islamic militants and scorned by their virulent supporters, despite all evidence- has lost its impact in the usage. The pattern repeats from several previous go-rounds against Hamas provocations that intentionally invited Israel's retaliation. The "shield" has two parts. 1. Self-protection: placing terrorist positions (etc.) alongside or under civilian infrastructure (knowing that the IDF has been always reluctant to injure/kill innocents, even when that means suffering casualties to their own soldiers' operations - which in itself is a tacit admission by these nihilists of the higher Jewish respect for any lives). More importantly, 2. PR propaganda: Collaterally killed and rescued children (some of it pure theater, posed for the news cameras) make for compelling pictures and headlines (as in previous wars, numbers falsified), the inversion to the perceived moral high ground for a provably barbaric terror gang and an outpouring of sympathy, which translates to world support, the mass vilification of Jews anywhere, and pressure on Israel to cease/suspend hostilities while Hamas (in a desperate state at this moment) can take the opportunity to regroup, set up fresh assaults and ambushes, or escape. "Babies" cold-bloodedly used as human "sacrifices" is more to the point.

Edited by whYNOT
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