Men & Women, Love & Sex

[Inspector]

Another note: JMeganSnow, I have presented my argument in a concise if-this-then-that format. If you want to actually get to the heart of the matter, then it is imperative that you show me which premise or deduction you disagree with and why, rather than just condemning my conclusion.

[JMeganSnow]

Another note: JMeganSnow, I have presented my argument in a concise if-this-then-that format. If you want to actually get to the heart of the matter, then it is imperative that you show me which premise or deduction you disagree with and why, rather than just condemning my conclusion.

I have demonstrated, through my arguing about what determines a mistake, through presentation of examples, through pointing out deficiencies in your reasoning, and through establishing what other behaviors your line of thinking would necessarily advocate, PRECISELY where I disagreed.

Your intellectual dishonesty in this matter first became clear to me when you used the rhetorical formulation "But surely . . ." and then, when I called you on it, insisted it was an HONEST question. This indicates either you are lying or you possess an inadequate command of the English language. I chose to assume it was the latter largely because you have a high post count and if you used these "tactics" often someone would probably have called you on it. Certainly anyone can make statements in haste that later turn out to lack an adequate degree of precision.

That question, indeed, was entirely unnecessary because the issue I was debating was not the question of a "one-night-stand" but your blanket condemnation of anyone engaging in sexual activity with more than one person. You chose to bring up the second issue, and then in later posts, combine them and complain that my statements about the first issue don't prove my "point" about the SECOND issue. This also indicates that you are either intentionally attempting to muddy the waters through dishonesty or that you failed to follow the thread of the conversation. Once again, I assumed the latter. Generosity, after all.

I decided at this point, however, that I would abandon the conversation as I did not see anything else being accomplished, but the guilt-mongering post appalled me.

Guilt-mongering is a vile and unethical practice, manipulating someone into feeling something and then using these feelings to replace reason. That does indeed qualify as intellectual dishonesty.

These are, as I said, the conclusions I have arrived at, and I do not consider your word to have any bearing on the matter, as I have evaluated that you have no interest in establishing an accurate picture of what Objectivism actually advocates; instead being only determined to proselytize your view via whatever tactics, however base.

If someone else wishes to intervene on Inspector's behalf to explain how I have misinterpreted, that is fine. I have stated my views and I consider everything he has to say on this issue suspect.

[Dominique]

I am glad to see you accept the idea that a proper romantic couple should at least be operating on the premise that they are at least pretty sure they will be spending the rest of their lives together; i.e. that the goal of any proper romantic relationship is that it be the highest, final relationship of one's life.

Stop right there and don't even read the rest of my post if you disagree with the  above.

I agreed when I first read it, but now as I go through the thread I see the

problem. When you said "How do you feel about that relationship now? It sounds like you are not and that you regret having it (a perfectly correct attitude)."

as Meagan pointed out, you implied that mistake=regret, and that a person ought to feel guilty over their mistakes. I don't feel regret about the mistakes I made honestly, because I learned something from all of it, and learning is a process. A person has no need to feel guilty over mistakes of this kind.

You are equating the wrong things. I'll read more and see if i can't be more specific

[JMeganSnow]

Given this definition, one could call a failed relationship a mistake because the people entering the relationship are not completely certain about the other person (although they should have some degree of certainty, as has already been discussed). The fact they do not have complete certainty, the fact that they are not omniscient and cannot predict the future (such as if the person they currently love will change for the worse in the future), implies that they are using"deficient knowledge" in the decision they are making.

You could, but you would then be indicating that the factors you pointed to (that people are not omnsicient and cannot predict the future) are a deficiency. These are not a deficiency in humans, they are a metaphysically given FACT. Failure to possess knowledge that can only be acquired through means that humans cannot possess (and not DO NOT possess, specifically CANNOT) cannot be a deficiency.

[Inspector]

Your intellectual dishonesty in this matter first became clear to me when you used the rhetorical formulation "But surely . . ." and then, when I called you on it, insisted it was an HONEST question.

It WAS. I did not honestly think that you would dispute the point that followed "but surely..."

[Inspector]

Guilt-mongering is a vile and unethical practice, manipulating someone into feeling something and then using these feelings to replace reason.  That does indeed qualify as intellectual dishonesty.

If that is how you define "Guilt-mongering" then it is indeed unethical. I was thinking that the term meant simply "seeking to induce guilt." Under either definition, however, I was not guilt-mongering. I was asking the question "do you feel guilt?" and following it with an assurance that if she did, it would be "okay" to, and that no harm would come from admitting it, since it would be a perfectly reasonable thing to feel.

The rest of what you said, about mixing up all the points and arguments, ...I don't even know what you're trying to say.

My, my, what a monster you paint me as, JMeganSnow.

[Inspector]

You could, but you would then be indicating that the factors you pointed to (that people are not omnsicient and cannot predict the future) are a deficiency.  These are not a deficiency in humans, they are a metaphysically given FACT.  Failure to possess knowledge that can only be acquired through means that humans cannot possess (and not DO NOT possess, specifically CANNOT) cannot be a deficiency.

I was not ever claiming that a person should feel guilty for making an error that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for them not to have made. However, in all of your examples, a person has a question: "do I know enough about this person to know that it is proper to sleep with them?" and a choice: "either sleep with them or wait to gather more information." In the cases where it would have been less harmful to make the second choice (i.e. failed relationships), how was it IMPOSSIBLE for someone to have made the latter choice? If that choice would have resulted in the better outcome for them, how can you not call the act of making the other choice a "mistake?"

You can qualify it all you like: ("understandable mistake") and some mistakes can be excused from lack of knowledge. But that does not eliminate the fact that a mistake is a mistake: it is something that you wish you hadn't done.

[Dominique]

You could, but you would then be indicating that the factors you pointed to (that people are not omnsicient and cannot predict the future) are a deficiency.  These are not a deficiency in humans, they are a metaphysically given FACT.  Failure to possess knowledge that can only be acquired through means that humans cannot possess (and not DO NOT possess, specifically CANNOT) cannot be a deficiency.

I think we have a semantics problem here. Unless I'm misunderstanding your intentions. When I said earlier about genorosity not being appropriate in response to a mistake, I meant that a mistake is a mistake, and by definition an accident, and not wrong. There is no reason to forgive it and no call to generosity in response.

There is no intent in a mistake, you (meaning anyone-not you specifically)were going for one thing and ended up with something else. Your goals were in the right place, but your knowledge hadn't caught up yet, or knowledge of that kind was not possible. This is not a deficiency on your part, and requires no generosity of others except in their personal preference to not hang around people that make mistakes, but it isn't a *moral* judgement. Or is that what you are arguing? Whether a mistake should be judged morally or not? No it shouldn't.

Oy, I'm confused.

[Dominique]

You can qualifyit all you like: ("understandable mistake") and some mistakes can be excused from lack of knowledge. But that does not eliminate the fact that a mistake is a mistake: it is something that you wish you hadn't done.

I think you need to define mistake specifically

In my mind it neccesarily means *accident*. Or like an error in judgement. It isn't willfull.

Intent makes all the difference. How can you judge the morality of the type of mistakes when the peron should have known better? You can only say that the person themselves is willfully ignorant or evasive, and then wouldn't hang out with them, but to look at the act as the deciding factor of intent is backwords. And it doesn't affect the morality of the act, or the mistake, or anything.

A mistake is a mistake, an evasion of the truth is immoral. They are not the same thing.

I don't wish I hadn't made mistakes, I mean sure, it can be embarrassing, exopensive, what have you, but it's a lesson. When I look in my past and see somewhere that I was evading the facts of reality, I feel regret, but the individual acts are not moral or immoral neccesarily, what was immoral was my dishonesty, or my altruism, or whatever.

[JMeganSnow]

Dominique:

Dictionary.com entries for "mistake"

1.  An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness.

2.  A misconception or misunderstanding.

Emphasis mine.

A mistake is not necessarily an accident. It does require moral evaluation and judgement. You can never know someone's intent except through evaluating their actions, words, the result of their actions, etc.; i.e. through judging them.

Disconnecting intent from result is a further instance of mind-body dichotomy. A subjectivist would say, "only intent matters", and an intrinsicist would say "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Taken together, it is another way to say "This is good in theory, but not in practice."

However, even an accidental mistake can kill you. It requires significant generosity indeed not to dissociate oneself (or seek redress) from someone so careless. If you want an example: if a doctor allowed one of your loved ones to die through carelessness, how easy would it be for you to forgive him? Would he necessarily deserve your forgiveness (he may not deserve to have his license revoked, etc. But he hardly deserves that you embrace him in the spirit of friendship, either.)

I'm going to do what you suggested earlier and start a new thread for this particular issue.

[Inspector]

Intent makes all the difference. How can you judge the morality of the type of mistakes when the peron should have known better? You can only say that the person themselves is willfully ignorant or evasive, and then wouldn't hang out with them, but to look at the act as the deciding factor of intent is backwords. And it doesn't affect the morality of the act, or the mistake, or anything.

A mistake is a mistake, an evasion of the truth is immoral. They are not the same thing.

I don't wish I hadn't made mistakes, I mean sure, it can be embarrassing, exopensive, what have you, but it's a lesson. When I look in my past and see somewhere that I was evading the facts of reality, I feel regret, but the individual acts are not moral or immoral neccesarily, what was immoral was my dishonesty, or my altruism, or whatever.

I think a mistake is a more general term encompassing decisions which produce outcomes which were not the goal of the decision-maker. Some mistakes happen because of immoral behavior on the part of the mistake-maker, and some don't.

Other than that, I don't think I have stated anything that disagrees with your post, Dominique. I'm not saying that everyone who has made a mistake was at some point willfully immoral. The nature of induction is that we, as human beings often have to *guess,* and that means that we will sometimes guess wrong.

[Dominique]

I think a mistake is a more general term encompassing decisions which produce outcomes which were not the goal of the decision-maker. Some mistakes happen because of immoral behavior on the part of the mistake-maker, and some don't.

Yes, that's what I was after.

Other than that, I don't think I have stated anything that disagrees with your post, Dominique. I'm not saying that everyone who has made a mistake was at some point willfully immoral. The nature of induction is that we, as human beings often have to *guess,* and that means that we will sometimes guess wrong.

I clearly am missing the basis of you both's argument here, so I'll take it to the other thread to sort out.

[JMeganSnow]

New thread is here.

[Elle]

content edited to add to the new thread

Edited February 3, 2005 by Elle

[deedlebee]

Continuing on with the original subject of this thread:

I suppose that would be a result of being totally honest, wouldn't it? Honest to the facts of reality.  Is this a separate character trait? Like Ambition, or Good Hygene, which can be learned? Because (I don't have my lexicon handy here but...) isn't desire an emotion, which can't be maintained? Self-improvement seems to fall under some other heading, but I'm not sure which one.

I think desire might have been a poor word to use. What I meant by using it was "a willful drive". I do believe that honesty would help in this regard, but someone simply telling you "I wish you knew more so we could talk about something different" probably isn't the best motivator. If a person wants to continue improving himself over the course of his life, regardless of marital status, I'd say he's better off.

Additionally, I would add Priority to a successful marriage. Making time to be with your spouse, even when it's difficult (especially if children are involved).

You must enter into marriage knowing that if you are never able to have or adopt children, you will still be happy and fulfilled being married to the most amazing person you've ever known. Even if kids do come along, you must maintain the attitude that you are married first, a parent second.

Even I, who have been reluctant towards the idea of children was surprised by this point of view. The author however, makes a very strong argument as to why priority towards the marriage is so vital.

How does the ideal woman differ from the ideal man, and why?

I'm still curious about this one. Is there anything besides the biological difference?

[KevinD]

How does the ideal woman differ from the ideal man, and why?

I'm still curious about this one. Is there anything besides the biological difference?

That's a very big question, and it's asked in a somewhat strange way.

The simple answer is that one is a man while the other is a woman — with everything that those facts entail.

We're not bodies or minds; we're integrated beings of both.

Now, what it means to be a man, versus being a woman, is something which has been discussed in this thread, and in others.

Suffice it to say that basic virtues and qualities of character are not sexual characteristics, and apply equally to men and women.

[EC]

[Mod's note: Merged with existing thread.]

In another thread that I'm too lazy too try to link too, I started a "discussion" about better ways to create attraction in the fairer sex then the customary flowers and card BS. A LOT of what I said was misiterpreted, I believe. So I thought I would show a newsletter that I get via e-mail from a guy who goes by the name of David D.

At first I was just going to post exerpts but this weeks e-mail is too good for that. It explains a lot of his techniques as well as responds to success stories and a couple e-mails from some ladies who hit him up too tell him how bad his ideas are.

I personally think that this stuff with some minor "tweaking" here and there demonstrate's Objectivist male/female interactions flawlessly. This stuff works... and it does for the same reason Objectivism does, and the same reason a light went on in my head when I read both. They both conform perfectly with reality.

Without further ado.... I'll let the Jedi Master himself speak........

Meeting Models, '10s', And Other Hot Women

--------------------------------------------------

If you'd like to take yourself off of my dating

tips email list, just click this link:

http://DoubleYourDatingMail.com/f/?a84POf.ckiO7F.ZV9jbGF5.u

If you want to sign up for this newsletter, just

go to: www.DoubleYourDatingMethod.com

--------------------------------------------------

Note: If you'd like to check out all of my

different programs for helping you attract and

meet women, just go here to see my online program

list:

http://www.DoubleYourDatingMethod.com/e/10280/Catalog/

***QUESTION***

Hey Dave, how's it hanging?

Read your stuff...interesting. Makes a lot of

sense to appear different then all the others. I

have one question, however. This C&F stuff (can I

call it "friendly mocking"?) really only works on

women who are sure of themselves and who will not

take your jokes to the heart. But how many of

those are in the world? I mean, with today's

"perfect" pop-stars most women have at least some

insecurities. So, how can you use this technique

and not accidentally hit a weak spot? Is there a

neutral C&F approach?

J Brooklyn, NY

>>>MY COMMENTS:

I think you're hitting on an important point

here.

I think that a lot of guys "secretly" want to

figure out a way to meet women without RISKING

anything.

This is probably why personal ads and online

dating websites are so popular.

The problem with not wanting to RISK anything

is that it creates a mindset that leads to being

AVERAGE.

And "average" doesn't create ATTRACTION.

I teach guys to use a specific kind of humor

that I call "Cocky & Funny".

One of the purposes of the Cocky & Funny

technique is to clearly demonstrate that you are

NOT intimidated by a woman, and to INSTANTLY

communicate that you are DIFFERENT from other men.

You'd like to know the magic way to "not

accidentally hit a weak spot"...

But guess what?

Accidents happen.

Risk is part of life.

Don't worry so much about hitting a "weak spot"

while you're teasing or busting on a woman... just

concern yourself with making sure you're being

FUNNY while you're doing it.

If you meet a woman who is so sensitive that

she can't take a joke, or you "accidentally" over

do it, don't worry about it. No biggie.

She's probably either too uptight or

emotionally fragile for you to have a good time

with anyway.

If you want to make a cake, you have to break a

few eggs, man.

Remember, your objective isn't to be MEAN to

women, or to hurt them... your objective is to use

a specific type of humor to create ATTRACTION.

And give up this "neutral" idea. Neutral is

BORING. And Boring is NOT the way to create

ATTRACTION.

***QUESTION***

David "The Man"--

First of all, your Advanced CD Series is THE most

definitive exhaustive resource on dating ever

written. It boggles my mind that nobody ever

figured this stuff out before. You are the

research scientist that broke the mold of all that

bookstore fluff, the Darwin of Dating.

I can now approach and get the email of a woman

who would have made me shake in my boots just a

few months ago. My most recent success was a girl

I dated who I turned up the C+F to the max, but my

old inner wussy made a brief appearance and that

was that. Oh well. "Next!" I'll get better and

better.

I have improved quite a bit, but I'm looking for

some guy friends as you suggest. However, I'm

having a problem finding guys who are good with

women. I'm not seeing them. All I see everywhere

I go are wusses. Any thoughts or ideas?

I've also thought about finding friends who are

students of yours so we can get together for team

efforts. Any suggestions here?

Thanks again for the incredible impact you've had

on my life.

J.

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Yeah, I have one thought for you...

This "Everywhere I go all I see is wusses"

thing can be a challenge. I shake my head almost

every single time I go out, because I think we're

in the middle of a WUSS EPIDEMIC in this country.

Keep looking.

It's worth it.

If you have to, ask friends and associates at

work if they know any guys who are really good

with women.

And remember, be cool. Guys who are good with

women often like to help other guys learn. But

don't be a boat anchor around his neck...

If you do your homework and find some guys who

can help you, it will REALLY pay off.

***COMMENT FROM A WOMAN***

Sir,

I received one of you Q&A emails by mistake, I'm

sure. I am an intelligent, female professional and

I reall-ll-ll-lly had a good laugh after reviewing

your web site as well.

If you think that ALL women will be turned on by

these things, you are very mistaken. The classy,

sophisticated, and well educated as well as

intriguing and very attractive will have totally

different opinions on all these subjects. I think

you would do better to consider your experience as

incomplete.

However, I'm sure you are making an obscene

amount of money by offering this misinformation

for sale to men.

Laughing Uncontrollably in Alaska

>>>MY COMMENTS:

An intelligent female professional that lives

in ALASKA?

Don't even get me started there...

And since you seem to be claiming here that

you're an AUTHORITY on "The classy, sophisticated,

and well educated... as well as intriguing and

very attractive" women... I have to ask you where

you're getting this particular education...

Alaska?

Maybe those words mean something different

where you're from.

Whatever.

Look, I used to be a "nice", sweet, BORING guy

who did nice things for women, acted respectful,

and generally was everything I thought a "good

guy" should be.

And my success with meeting and attracting

women was horrible.

I had a few good relationships with attractive

women, but these were ACCIDENTAL. It only happened

because I was in the right place at the right

time, and because the women just happened to have

NOTHING BETTER GOING ON.

Now that I do what I teach, I'm able to attract

beautiful women whenever I want.

You do the math.

***COMMENT FROM A WOMAN***

Hey Dave,

I forward your news letter to my ex-husband and to

my other male friends and they all thanked me for

it. I agree with all of your advice. It's kind of

scary how well you read women. You have also

helped me to realize what I'm attracted to and

why. Take care!

S MD

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Yeah, it's OK for you to admit that you're

attracted to ME.

I don't blame you.

You forgot to include your picture, dear.

Waiting patiently.

Your friend,

David D.

P.S. Stop forwarding these emails to your Ex.

It's bad enough that you love me... but to add

insult to injury for the poor guy...

***SUCCESS STORY***

David,

So, I go into a shoe store the other day and I'm

just kind of browsing. The clerk-- a cutie of age

21--asks me if she can help me. I kindly ask her

to get me a certain pair to try on. As I put the

shoes on, she enthusiastically squeaked, "WOW

THOSE SHOES LOOK GREAT ON YOU!!!". I mocked her in

the same hi-pitch tone, "YOU'RE ON COMMISION YOU

NEED TO SAY THAT!!" She gave me that playful

little slap on the arm and told me I was "a little

sh**". I go on teasing her for 5 minutes or so

and she asks me if I would like a job at this

store. When she gave me the application, she also

hands me her HOME ADDRESS and phone number and

asked me to hand deliver it that night. To keep it

short, that nite I gave her more than my job

resume!!!

Now, David, the previous situation is very unusual

for me, as I rarely have much to say, period. I've

always been very shy and very quiet but am

starting to come out of that. I'm not scared to

approach women or anything but I just don't know

how to start or keep conversation, you know? I've

read books on this, listened to tapes and nothing

seems to help. Dave, I need some advice!!!

DK Indiana

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Oh, nice one!

Great example of how to use Cocky & Funny with

a woman!

And as for meeting women, stop worrying about

STARTING OR KEEPING CONVERSATIONS GOING.

Just walk up to women, get their phone numbers,

and then get together with them later for a cup of

tea.

No "starting of conversations" required.

Use my 3 minute email/number technique, and

then break out your killer sense of humor later

when you're alone with her.

You're doing fine... don't worry about

"conversations".

And if you do wind up in a conversation, just

start out by talking about normal things, then

transition into the Cocky & Funny material as you

progress.

***QUESTION***

Hi Dave,

I have been receiving your emails for a while now

and boy have they been working. As a matter of

fact, I was actually using the C/F all the time,

without even realizing it. For example,

In one of my classes there is this girl that acts

weird most of the time (she's a solid 9.5) and one

day she was talking to me, and I just turned

around and said to my friend: "Did you say mental

hospital?" I got a shot in the arm for that one.

I kept unknowingly using C/F on her for maybe

three days and then after one C/F comment she

replied (with her hand on my shoulder): "I like

you, you make me laugh" then she winked and turned

around. I was shocked! I mean, I had basically

been making fun of her. Little did I know that I

had been doing everything right (this was before I

started getting your emails).

So anyway, my question. I have no problems meeting

women in malls, on campus etc, but what about

online? Are there any C/F comments I can use to

start a conversation? The only ones I can think of

are when they have ridiculous/absurd chat names.

Thanks

A

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Well, one of the GREAT things about teasing

women is that you can basically GUESS things about

them and they'll respond.

For instance, if you're talking to a woman

online, and you haven't seen her picture, you can

say:

"OK, you're probably some hairy, manly, seven

hundred pound beast... and that's why you haven't

sent me your picture..."

(Use this kind of thing when she says that

she's a model or dancer, etc. and it's obviously

not even close.)

The bolder you are, and the funnier, the better

you'll do when guessing.

Try it, you'll like it.

***QUESTION***

Dave-

Whussup Man? Well I'm not gonna waste your time

or mine tellin you about how great your teaching

and knowledge is, because we both already know

what's up! I'm a 19 yr old who has downloaded your

ebook and I've read about the last 20+ emails..

I'm learning a lot. But I'm not where I want to be

yet.

Well here is what happened. I had lady friend

of mine over to the house the other night. Now we

have been friends for a little while now and I

have to tried in the past to pursue this woman but

like a lot of males in the world.. I would always

turn wussy on her. This women is about 5' nothin',

with a beautiful mind and a beautiful body, (she

is a 8 or 9 on my scale, and I'm picky.)*the radio

is ON* We haven't talked in a while so we caught

up on each others lives..had some laughs with the

cocky/funny attitude and I even fixed dinner! Well

I told her before I made dinner that when we

finished eating she owed me a 30 min. massage. She

said okay. Now, we get done eating and she tells

me to dim the lights and lay down. She tells me

she is goin' to wash her hands and never comes

back.. SHE LEFT!!!!!!! WHAT HAPPENED?!?!

JF from Texas

>>>MY COMMENTS:

What happened?

You went and spanked your chicken with reckless

abandon?

You cried yourself to sleep?

lol... it's probably horrible that I'm laughing

at your misery, but hey, these things happen.

Don't worry about it, man.

Next time, try making something other than

"Hamburger Helper" with rainbow popsicles for

dessert.

I think you're gonna live.

The problem is that you acted like a WUSSY for

so long, that the thought of you being anything

more than a friend made her RUN all the way home.

You created your own problem, by trying to make

a girl who was convinced that you were a Wuss into

something more than a friend. It's not easy.

***COMMENT***

Today I met an ex-girlfriend (and now good friend

and occasional date) for lunch at an Indian

buffet. This is a woman who has commented in the

past that she didn't like my cocky side (either I

wasn't doing it right, or she was lying), so I was

looking for a good opportunity to segue into a C&F

routine and see how it affected her. At one point

she complained that the bread was cold, and that I

should go get some fresh stuff...

ME: What's in it for me? [unoriginal line] HER:

I'll stay and finish lunch at your table.

Otherwise, I'll go get the bread and sit over

there by myself. [great answer!] ME: Well,

that'd be embarrassing. HER: Yup. ME: Everyone in

the restaurant would think that you had to

move because you've got real bad gas.

And it went from there. You could see her eyes

getting brighter throughout the conversation, and

it ended with:

HER: Wow, you're feisty today... ME: Yeah, so...?

HER: So, it's really... attractive. ME [laughing]:

Boy, you're easy today...

That's a confession straight from the source:

feisty = attractive. And she went on to

demonstrate her attraction after lunch in an

unusually aggressive manner. I think everything

you're saying is capital-T Truth, brother.

You know, people assume that Kissinger was talking

about political power being the ultimate

aphrodisiac, but I think there are many nuances to

the word "power", and you don't have to be a

senator or CEO to exploit it.

Interesting aside: I was discussing this with an

insightful female friend, and she agreed with

everything you say, and added that women don't

want to be our mothers... and if we treat them

like we treat our mothers (i.e., act like a wuss),

what does that say?

C.K.

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Amen, brother. Amen.

Feisty, Sassy, Cheeky, Ballsy... = ATTRACTION.

***QUESTION***

hey dave-lets get to the chase. 2 things (first

the success story).. i met this chik who was

getting off work..yelled out "HEY!" and she came

over to me.. i started talking about anything and

everything to get/keep her attention..busting on

her and all ..she gave me her # after 20 minutes..

BUt i didnt call. then i ran into her again in the

neighborhood but this time i did the same thing

"whats your # again?" and then finally i wrote it

down and scored on the second meeting after

coffee.. the stuff works bro

now for the wuss part..i meet this chik last

summer who was in town for her job assignment that

lasted for 1 month. Shes a real player. We met

again after the party (she called me and said hey

im coming over) and within 30 minutes she was in

my bed in her bra/panties BUT i didnt do anything

cause she was complaining about how guys are such

dogs. so i didnt do anything for the next 5

meetings. She said "Im glad you never did anything

cause we still wouldnt be talking if u did".

Anyway, last time we meet she invites me AND 4

other guys for dinner. she sits on their laps

(just like she did with me) to make me jealous. we

have kept in touch for 5 months and next month

she'll be back for a 2 week visit. i have heard

shes talking to 5 other guys in town besides me.

whenever i confront her on the phone about these

guys she says "nooo! im not! and ive never slept

with any of them so ignore the rumors! who do you

believe them or me??!" she called me 1 month ago

and let my phone ring once, and then when i called

her back it was a guys voice (she moved in with

her "friend" from high school)

my question is: i told her how i felt about her

and she already said she just wants to be friends

because she travels around a lot. she'll be

staying with 1 or 2 of these guys shes talking to

when she comes back and will try to make me sooo

jealous i know it. she called me last week and

actually asked me for one of these guys numbers. I

got angry and hung up on her (something i would

never have done before) and then she called me

back and actually seems a lot more interested.

Then i called her yesterday from work and told her

that a stripper approached me at a bar and asked

me out and then this girl said "ohh well why dont

you go out with her then?" but then said "OH by

the way Im coming back on APRIL 21st".. i want to

beat her at her own damn game! but i already gave

her so much power. i wish i could just take it all

back and make her feel the same way.

HOW DO I HANDLE THIS GIRL:??? SHES DRIVING ME

NUTS!!!

CJ

Houston,TX

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Wow, this is actually a very powerful story.

First, she intimidated you by telling you that

"guys are dogs"... which caused you to not try to

take things to a physical level.

When you did that, YOU FAILED THE FIRST TEST.

She intimidated you with her words!

Then, the more you pursued her without

progressing, the more she tested you.

Until she finally started INSULTING you...

right in front of a bunch of other guys!

By the way, when you mentioned that after you

hung up on her she seemed a lot more interested...

it's probably true.

Look, man.... BAIL! Drop it. Hit the road.

You screwed up in the beginning by handing over

control of the relationship to her, and it's not

worth the trouble or hassle to try to take it

back.

She's probably the type of girl that LOVES to

play guys and make them chase her... and who

enjoys seeing how much a guy will do to get her...

only to leave after he does all he can.

Move on.

But remember the lesson. Steer clear of women

like this in the future.

Note: If you've read this story, and you can

IDENTIFY with this guy who wrote it... and you

know what it feels like to want a woman, but be

completely OUT OF CONTROL of the situation... then

I recommend that you work on your INNER GAME as

much as possible. Self Image and Self Esteem are

keys in this area, as they help you pass these

"tests" that women throw at you... and they help

you raise your standards, and avoid unhealthy

women. If what I'm saying is making sense to you,

then you should go RIGHT NOW and check out my DEEP

INNER GAME DVD/CD program. This program will help

you out in this area more than any other program

ANYWHERE:

http://www.DoubleYourDatingMethod.com/e/10280/DeepInnerGame/

***SUCCESS STORY***

Dave

For the past 6 weeks I've been hearing...

"You scare me" (said jokingly) "I never know if

you're being serious" "You know what I love about

you? You make me laugh..."

... and its all down to you.

Dave, you are "da man", so I just wanted to say a

huge thank you and tell you what happened - all

thanks to your newsletters and amazing book

I got in touch with D via a personals web site, we

started emailing, and I started the C&F. The first

date was amazing. We went out to lunch - I never

laid off the C&F and she was lapping it up. We

went back to her place and started getting "cosy"

(with the comments "I don't normally do this on a

first date"). I had to leave for another

engagement but she desperately wanted me to stay!!

So I went back on the Sunday and we've been

together ever since.

Dave, you have saved another lost soul. Once

again, a huge thank you.

R England

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Hey, you're welcome.

Cash donations are welcome, along with large

gifts and other favors (no, I don't want a kiss).

Just make sure you keep doing what worked to

begin with, and don't turn into a WUSSY!

***QUESTION***

David,

First, I LOVE your Advanced Dating Techniques CD

program. Everyone; do yourself a favor, BUY

David's stuff! It's EXCELLENT!!! Well worth the

INVESTMENT in YOURSELF!!!

This past Thursday, I was on a second date with

this attractive female. Been using the c&f on

both dates and she eating eating it up. Anyway,

we end up back at her place. First, we get there

and I sit back on the couch. She asks if I want a

drink, so I tell her NO. Suggesting that she is

just trying to get me drunk. We watch tv for a

little bit; then when I was thirsty, I got up and

asked her if she wanted a drink.She said no, so

when I went to her fridge and I asked her what do

you want me to bring you back, because I'm not

drinking alone. After we both finish our first

drink, I lean over and pecked her on the lips. She

tried to kiss me back and I told her to settle

down and go get us another drink, which she did.

....Fast forward, after a night of everything, but

sex (I didn't have a condom), as I was kissing her

good night (she wanted me to stay, but I was

leaving for a trip Friday morning, so I told her

No.)

she said, "I'm going to regret not sleeping with

you in the morning."

I smile and kiss her.

She said, "Maybe next time."

I said, "Maybe."

Then she said, "or the time after that." That

light bulb my David D. light bulb went on, this

preparedst.

Being prepaid I said, "What makes you think I'll

want to have sex with you next time? Or the time

after that?"

She said, "You're a guy and that's what all guys

want."

I said, "Maybe I'll only kiss you next time."

She said, "I hope we'd AT LEAST do that."

Driving the nail home that I was in control and

she wasn't going to use sex as a weapon, I said,

"Fine, then hand holding it is."

She said, "Hand holding?"

hand-holding, "Yes, you've been promoted to

handholding."

She said, "How is that a promotion?"

I kissed her and said, "I'll tell you next time."

and left. Needless to say, next time I'll score,

if I want to. LOL!!! Of course I will, because

that's what all guys want. hehehehe!!! This

stuff is GREAT!

I haven't finished cd 10 or 11 yet, but I do have

a question about paying? When is it appropriate

to let her pay? How often? How do I let her pay

without being perceived as a wussy?

Thanks again. You have changed my life for the

better. I now get it. Plus, it's fun to watch

the guys who Chicago-land This stuff is VERY

POWERFUL, use it with caution.

J Chicagoland

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Very nice.

Mixed messages, teasing, stepping back, making

her feel anticipation and want it badly... GREAT.

This is a great example of how to handle a

situation like this one.

As far as letting women pay...

The whole topic of "paying" is kind of a pain.

It has gotten into many women's heads that if a

guy pays it means that he's a "gentleman" and if

he doesn't it means that "he's not".

***SUCCESS STORY***

Howdy, Dave -- I wrote to you about a year ago

with what I thought was a great "Success Story"

involving a biker chick. She was just so hot, and

she came on to me right in front of her biker

boyfriend, after I busted on her about how I

thought only good-looking women got to ride on

Harleys. Well, she turned out to be one sick

puppy. Chock full of really strange mental and

personality things. Well, I kept being C&F with

other women while I was dating this chick -- and

I'm sure glad I said, "No" when she wanted to move

in with me! Anyhow, to make a long story a bit

shorter, I'm now involved with a 50 year-old 10.

Perhaps a 10.5!! I'm 55, average looking,

divorced x2, definitely not wealthy, etc, etc. I

treated this woman as if she was my "bratty little

sister" and after a couple months of banter, she

asked me for a date! I had not even bought her a

cuppa! Anyhow, we have been dating since last

summer, and back around Christmastime, I started

getting wussyfied with her. I saw immediately

that it was not the right thing to do. She began

to withdraw, so I did not call her or see her for

a week. It was tough to pull back and get back to

doing the right things. (No, I didn't have dreams

of you bitch-slapping me! I got that vicariously

in your emails!!) My point is this -- if it works,

keep doing it!! Don't stop. And, as soon as you

realize you've reverted, AS SOON AS, get back to

right behavior. This woman loves me even more now

because I was able to backpedal quickly. Pay

attention to yourself and what you are doing and

saying, guys! Don't ever go back to wussiness.

Wussy only works with your mom, and you don't want

to date her, do you? Pay attention to yourself and

what you are doing and saying! Be in control of

your life.

Thanks, Mr. Dave. G from Colorado

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Exactly... do what works, and if you start

slipping, pull back and then get back with the

program.

Good job, and keep it up.

Thanks for the email.

***QUESTION***

Here's a Q for you...I haven't ordered you CD's

yet, I've been reading your emails and taking in

the info slowly, but I'll definitely do so soon.

On the issue of being generous....It has always in

my nature to be generous of myself unconditionally

with most people I like, but I don't give away my

life just for attention or to "buy" people's

friendship, and certainly for a woman's attention,

I have always known that just doesn't work. I come

from a family in which it is natural for us to be

generous as a matter of good form, but never

beyond the means available. It's a cultural trait

I guess. Being tight and always expecting a reward

for everything is neurotic anyways. Problem is

between women and I is that I have no problem with

doing a small favor for a woman just out of what I

feel is just decency. But I don't expect to

immediately jump in the sack with her. It's a

paradox for me. Like going to a club and buying

some woman a drink, but not expecting anything in

return except having a good time and just getting

along. Maybe it's a good way to sort out the

user/flaky types from the cool and normal types,

doing a small favor and seeing how they react.

I've had good results from controlling how much I

will give, and sometimes throwing in some humor

like this "O.K. one drink(sly grin here)but if you

start stumbling around I'm not paying your cabfare

home!", This always gets a laugh and loosens up

the woman, and keeps me in control(I think)

without seeming that I'm a sucker or trying to buy

her attention. What is your view on this kind of

thing? Oh, another thing I'll do is _not_ get

clingy if I do something like that..in fact I've

found that if I just walk away and find something

to do for a few minutes( talk to a friend or even

go to the bathroom or whatever that) right after

doing a small favor, and allowing some "breathing

space", that the next time around they get at ease

and usually a good conversation usual starts

leading to and exchange of digits. Do you think

I'm on the right track? or os it too

"friendly"(read doomed wuss)?

Thanks C.M.

>>>MY COMMENTS:

This is a great question.

I think that most of us REALLY want to be

"good" to women... we want to do nice things,

treat women well, and "take care" of them.

I can understand your generosity mindset, and I

actually admire you for having an "abundance"

mentality.

But I'm going to present you with another way

of looking at things... one that might really help

you.

What if you thought of "generosity" a little

differently?

What if you were to realize that being

"generous" with a woman sometimes means to ACT

like you're being NOT generous at all?

What if you were to see that if you were too

"generous" at first, that a woman would SUSPECT

that you were only being generous to MANIPULATE

her?

It's not you.

It's that women are so used to men trying to do

things for them in order to get attention and sex

in return that they:

1) See this kind of generosity as "average" and

expected behavior... and immediately slot you into

the "regular, nice guy" category when you do it.

2) Often see generosity as a form of manipulation,

whereby a man uses gifts and dinners to set up a

situation where the women feels that she needs to

"put out" in return.

Lean back.

Be generous LATER, when it will be perceived to

be more authentic and special.

It sounds to me like you're a genuinely good

guy.

The challenge is getting a woman's attention

for long enough that you can actually SHOW her

this side of you, and have it not come across as

"ass kissing" behavior.

***SUCCESS STORY***

Hey Dave,

First, let me say how powerful your techniques

are. A lot of the methods you teach have been part

of my success in the past; I just didn't realize

it until I started using your various Double Your

Dating materials!

I'm from Manhattan, New York; and I work in

probably one of the best places in the world to

find unbelievably beautiful women; the "fashion

district." In this part of NYC, their are hordes

of models going from fittings to fittings, to

photo shoots etc. Here is a real-world example of

your excellent teachings in action!

#1, when I go out to lunch; I don't go to a fast

food joint, I go to a salad bar (these are very

popular in this part of town). The theory being

that, I desire a girl with a great figure, and

fast food is not the path to one, so I hit the

salad spots! Recently, I see this very well known

model (who happens to have a major modeling

contract with a cosmetics company) at my favorite

lunch spot, waiting on line to pay for her salad.

She is of course an absolute 10, wearing a super

sexy outfit complete with some killer stiletto

style heels; so I see my 'in.' I walk up behind

her and say "what is up with those shoes," in

*almost* a disapproving way. She gives a half

glance towards me and says in a slightly confused,

self conches way "what, their Jimmie Choo's."

Still looking down, I respond "their sharp." She

responds "thanks." At this point, I'm still just

not much more than another guy looking to get her

attention, in her eyes. So I respond "that wasn't

a complement, I'm saying that they're SHARP; like

they could be used as a weapon!" She responds with

a big smile. At this point, the woman at the

register says "next! [we both walk to the

register] Are you together" I quickly respond "no-

way did you see those weapons she calls shoes?"

this don't even make complete sense, but that's

the point! I make sure I pay first (cutting ahead

of her), then as she starts to pay for her order,

I say "I'll tell you what, if you promise to keep

your shoes on the floor, I'll LET you have lunch

with me today." After that c&f comment she had

this really confused look on her face like, who

the hell is this guy to talk to me like this?

Notice DYD-ers, I didn't even act like I knew who

she was. As a matter of fact, to this day I never

play into her fame/success AT ALL!

To keep a long story from getting any longer, I

got her email that day at lunch, and now we have

been dating for three months! I cannot thank you

enough Dave, for showing me the errors of my ways,

and helping me date so many beautiful girls.

G from Manhattan

>>>MY COMMENTS:

Ah, models.

The object of desire for so many men.

And what do most guys do when they run into a

woman who is of "model quality"?

They get nervous, act stupid, and say things

that sound exactly like the other 47 guys that she

has talked to that day...

Beautiful women are some of the VERY BEST

people to bust on.

Think of it this way:

Her beauty (and in your case, fame) is her

weapon.

It's where her power comes from.

When you approach a woman like this and

immediately acknowledge her beauty, you also say,

"I see that you are powerful, and I'm one of those

who your power affects".

On the other hand, when you totally disregard

her "outward beauty" and instead start making fun

of her, teasing, and enjoying yourself, you

instead say, "I am the powerful one, and your

beauty magic doesn't work on me".

This has an INSTANT effect.

It separates you from 999 out of 1,000 other

men that she meets.

And if you're CHARMING and FUNNY as well, it

just says all the right things.

Great job, and congratulations on finding a

beautiful woman who you enjoy enough to date on an

ongoing basis.

...and if you're reading this Mailbag right

now, and thinking to yourself, "Man, I need to

start learning this stuff and get this part of my

life handled..."

...then YOU'RE RIGHT.

There's no better time than the present.

Here's an interesting thought...

At one of my live seminars, I met a guy who

owns my Advanced Dating Techniques program.

Get this:

He told me that he has listened to the CD

version of the program 13 times now. 13 times!

Why do you think he's listened to it so many

times?

Because he still learns NEW stuff EVERY time he

listens to it.

So what am I trying to say here?

I'm trying to say that it's JAM PACKED with

incredible information.

My Advanced Series was actually recorded at a

special 3 day seminar I did. It was then edited

down to a tight presentation (over 12 full hours),

and released on CD and DVD.

It's me teaching all of my very best stuff.

I don't hold anything back, and I have the time

to explain all of my concepts in detail... with

examples and step-by-step techniques for each of

them.

This is the best program you'll find on meeting

more women and getting more dates, and I highly

recommend that you check it out.

It's here:

http://www.DoubleYourDatingMethod.com/e/10...AdvancedSeries/

...and it's also important that you read my

eBook "Double Your Dating". It's the foundation

for all of the things I teach in these

newsletters, and all the things I teach in my

Advanced Dating Techniques program. You can

download it here and be reading it in just a few

minutes:

http://www.DoubleYourDatingMethod.com/e/10280/eBook/

I'll talk to you again soon.

Your Friend,

David D.

Edited April 19, 2006 by softwareNerd

[Liriodendron Tulipifera]

In another thread that I'm too lazy too try to link too, I started a "discussion" about better ways to create attraction in the fairer sex then the customary flowers and card BS. A LOT of what I said was misiterpreted, I believe.

Not at all, I think agree with you totally. Crass jokes are perfect if your primary goal is to get a woman laid right off the bat. Here are some other good ones from your other post, which I quote:

"The "jerks" use this stuff because they really DON'T care about her. They just care about hittin' it."

"Bust a hotties balls, if she's a little vertically challenged, walk right up and say, "What's up, shortie?" or "I like my women short... that way they don't have to get on their knees when....... sarcastic smile.""

Edited April 19, 2006 by Liriodendron Tulipifera

[EC]

Wow, isn't obvious that she ^^^ wants me.

Edited April 19, 2006 by EC

[softwareNerd]

EC, While you're on a roll, you should create a parallel thread about creating attadction in males and have that critiqued too.

[EC]

Good idea!

[EC]

On second thought that thread would be too short anyway.

It would consist of .... (first) beautiful, (second) be intellgient w/quick witted personality, (third) don't be a bia..........

Men don't usually play the games MOST women do. We get right to the point.

Edited April 19, 2006 by EC

[Liriodendron Tulipifera]

Wow, isn't obvious that she ^^^ wants me.

Isn't it predictable that you would respond with such a comment?

Edited April 19, 2006 by Liriodendron Tulipifera

[EC]

A bit too.....

[konerko14]

Why is it bad to have sex with someone you are attracted to but dont love? Heres a concrete example:

A man and woman meet at a bar. That night they go back to one of their places and have sex, even though they just met that night.

What are the negative consequences of these actions? How will this affect them negatively after they have sex?