Is it immoral for a man to be effeminate?

[daniel]

An Objectivist i know said Ayn Rand believed 'men should behave like men and women should behave like women'. (He than mentioned that she thought women should 'hero worship' men). How do you interpret this and is it correct? Is it immoral/wrong for a man to behave 'camp'?

[DavidV]

Umm, what is 'camp'?

[Groovenstein]

You know. There was this one time, at band camp . . .

[daniel]

Umm, what is 'camp'?

For a man to act effeminately. I guess its not a popular phrase 'across the pond'.

[Groovenstein]

Nope, I've never heard that one. I think Americans, around here anyway, tend to stick to terms like what you folks call cigarettes.

[shakthig]

Umm, what is 'camp'?

When (usually gay) men act like women for the purpose of entertaining and amusing themselves and others that behavior is referred to as "camp".

[JMeganSnow]

For a man to act effeminately. I guess its not a popular phrase 'across the pond'.

We don't even understand our OWN slang most of the time.

In order to answer this question, you have to consider the background for it.

1.) what constitutes feminine/maculine behavior, and why?

2.) why would a man choose to act in an effeminate manner?

3.) what will the results upon his life be?

The answers to these questions can only be arrived at by observing people, their behavior, and its consequences over a long period of time. Even a professional psychologist may not be able to unravel the issue fully.

I have changed my views on sex many times, even over the past year, and I've more or less come to the conclusion at this point that there's no purpose in worrying about it. The attempts I've seen (including my own) to address the issue rely heavily on Evolutionary Psychology theories (which are erroneous) and end up in the swamps of rationalization. Just keep your eyes open for new information and keep your mind functioning actively, always processing that new information and integrating it, and you'll be fine.

[Inspector]

No one has answered so far the posters question, which I will attempt to rephrase to its essentials:

"Was Ayn Rand an advocate of the position that men should act masculine and women should act feminine?"

The answer is YES, absolutely. She was an advocate of that position in a big way.

I personally believe that it is correct. I don't know if it was ever formally tied down to her philosophy, Objectivism, or if it is just a personal belief of hers. I do know that she wrote her heroes to be masculine men and feminine women and occasionally ascribed her villains the opposite.

There is, of course, a lot more detail to this, but I will leave that to others.

[punk]

For a man to act effeminately. I guess its not a popular phrase 'across the pond'.

My understanding of "camp" is to be hip over-the-top theatrical silliness, usually with ridiculous costumes. So:

"The Rocky Horror Picture Show" is camp (which agrees with the above)

The old "Batman" TV series is camp (just silly, but not necessarily effeminate, but I guess with Batman there are always homoerotic undertones)

Edited September 3, 2005 by punk

[JMeganSnow]

Inspector, that "answer" was almost completely contentless. It does no good to say that Ayn Rand advocated this-or-that position without explaining why; it is not an aide to cognition, but a method of destroying it.

Certainly Ayn Rand advocated that men should behave in a masculine fashion and women should behave in a feminine fashion. Why? Because she believed that to act otherwise is to deny the metaphysical requirements of one's nature as a member of a particular sex. I.e. that if a man were to attempt to be feminine, he would be causing himself psychological damage by trying to go against reality.

That's all fine as far as it goes. The question is, what specific actions are masculine of feminine? Is getting your nails done feminine? Is wearing flannel masculine? Why?

The reality is that no specific concretes are, in essence, "masculine" or "feminine"; they are just used as methods of expressing such in a manner that other people can understand; like speaking a language that your listeners can comprehend, it is an attempt to make oneself intelligible.

I can't speak for men (for obvious reasons) but for ME at least, femininity condenses down to, literally, a feeling, held at all times (even when I'm complaining about them!) of "aren't men wonderful?!" The complaints come about when specific men of my acquaintance manage not to be as wonderful as I think they ought to be.

[daniel]

We don't even understand our OWN slang most of the time. 

In order to answer this question, you have to consider the background for it.

1.) what constitutes feminine/maculine behavior, and why?

2.)  why would a man choose to act in an effeminate manner?

3.) what will the results upon his life be?

The answers to these questions can only be arrived at by observing people, their behavior, and its consequences over a long period of time.  Even a professional psychologist may not be able to unravel the issue fully.

I have changed my views on sex many times, even over the past year, and I've more or less come to the conclusion at this point that there's no purpose in worrying about it.  The attempts I've seen (including my own) to address the issue rely heavily on Evolutionary Psychology theories (which are erroneous) and end up in the swamps of rationalization.  Just keep your eyes open for new information and keep your mind functioning actively, always processing that new information and integrating it, and you'll be fine.

Thanks for the input. I'm not worried, it's just that a fellow Objectivist said I was camp and that this goes against Objectivism. I suppose i am camp, but i'm happy with wearing pink shirts and walking and talking the way I do. My response to him was it's up to the individual etc. His reply was valid in that something can be wrong but still allowed e.g Rand's view on homosexualty. But he still never explained WHY for a man to behave effeminate is wrong.

Edited September 3, 2005 by daniel

[Inspector]

Inspector, that "answer" was almost completely contentless.  It does no good to say that Ayn Rand advocated this-or-that position without explaining why; it is not an aide to cognition, but a method of destroying it.

Ouch, Megan. I don't think that's a fair evaluation.

[Hal]

The subset of homosexual behavior you described is only a specific example of 'camp'. The word is generally used to denote a playfully ironic attitude - a tounge-in-cheek approach to what youre doing, a none-too-subtle wink of the eye, and acting as deliberately over the as possible. Taken as a lifestyle, it shows a desire not to take life too seriously, coupled with the self-concscious decision to style yourself as an actor fully aware he's acting.

Wikipedia has a decent entry here.

Edited September 3, 2005 by Hal

[JMeganSnow]

Thanks for the input. I'm not worried, it's just that a fellow Objectivist said I was  camp and that this goes against Objectivism. I suppose i am camp, but i'm happy with wearing pink shirts and walking and talking the way I do. My response to him was it's up to the individual etc. His reply was valid in that something can be wrong but still allowed e.g Rand's view on homosexualty. But he still never explained WHY for a man to behave effeminate is wrong.

Is there something inherently un-masculine about pink shirts? My dad used to have a pink shirt and he looked GREAT in it. Unfortunately he didn't like to wear it very often.

I don't consider myself unfeminine, and I like to wear blue jeans and clunky work boots. Femininity is more your attitude towards men, not your own personal style. I'm nearly six feet tall and heavily built (that's not a euphemism for overweight, which I also am, it's the literal truth, I have broad shoulders, a square jaw, and a lot of muscle) and I found that frills tend to look ridiculous on me. I also had very short hair, although I've grown it out a little bit since then.

Unfortunately this does mean that I get hit on by lesbians occasionally; I don't mind, I mean, who could tell? And I think it's the same way with men. There's nothing in reality to say that a particular style is feminine/masculine. What there is, is a tradition of adopting a particular style in order to advertise a particular view.

There are a number of ways to think about it, really: Are you trying (consciously or subconsciously) to communicate something in particular? Are you imitating people you admire? Dressing up features you like? Do you think pink brings out your complexion?

As long as you maintain a healthy attitude towards women and don't mind occasional mistaken advances, who gives a damn?

(On a side note, I know homosexuals that have perfectly healthy relationships with the opposite sex . . . they just don't, for whatever reason, want to sleep with them.)

[Hal]

Femininity is more your attitude towards men, not your own personal style. 

Would you say that masculinity is primarilly a man's attitude towards women? And if not, why the asymmetry?

Edited September 4, 2005 by Hal

[JMeganSnow]

Ouch, Megan. I don't think that's a fair evaluation.

Okay, and I still can't agree/disagree with you unless you tell me WHY.

Well, here are my reasons for my evaluation further clarified, so you can consider them:

You stated what Ayn Rand's view was, and indeed, correctly, and that's fine as far as it goes. However, as you indicated, (and as is generally known) her views were based on her own knowledge of psychology . . . they are not part of Objectivism. So stating what her view was doesn't really explain anything. Similarly, stating whether or not you agree doesn't explain anything, either.

I'm not trying to indicate that you were being malicious: quite likely you just browsed by and noticed that no one had actually stated what Ayn Rand's view WAS, so you hastened to correct this error. (Because they didn't understand what Daniel's question was.) I simply noted that, while you had stated a fact, by itself said fact wasn't particularly useful.

It's essentially the difference between when your spouse asks you, "Do you know when the movie is?" and you saying either "no" or "No, let me check." Both are answers . . . one is useful, the other is not.

**alert digression ended**

[JMeganSnow]

Would you say that masculinity is primarilly a man's attitude towards women? And if not, why the asymmetry?

I would assume that masculinity is a man's attitude towards women, but since I'm not a man I really don't have any firsthand experience of the internal mechanisms of it, so I chose to confine my comments to my own experiences. There are a number of threads discussing this on the forum, and an absolutely fantastic amount of speculation, which puts it on par with most psychological questions in my understanding.

[Inspector]

You stated what Ayn Rand's view was, and indeed, correctly, and that's fine as far as it goes.  However, as you indicated, (and as is generally known) her views were based on her own knowledge of psychology . . . they are not part of Objectivism.  So stating what her view was doesn't really explain anything.  Similarly, stating whether or not you agree doesn't explain anything, either. 

I'm not trying to indicate that you were being malicious: quite likely you just browsed by and noticed that no one had actually stated what Ayn Rand's view WAS, so you hastened to correct this error.  (Because they didn't understand what Daniel's question was.)  I simply noted that, while you had stated a fact, by itself said fact wasn't particularly useful.

That's all pretty much right. I simply didn't want to step out of the bounds of what I know about why she held that view. I didn't think it was fair to say that because I was careful to not run my mouth on something I wasn't 100% sure of, I was responsible for the destruction of cognition as such!

[KevinD]

I can't speak for men (for obvious reasons) but for ME at least, femininity condenses down to, literally, a feeling, held at all times (even when I'm complaining about them!) of "aren't men wonderful?!"

While I like this statement very much, and would say that it describes my own personal view (albeit from the opposite direction), I would clarify that a healthy sense of masculinity or femininity begins with an affirmative attitude toward one's own nature as a man or as a woman.

By way of extension, or almost as a corollary, one can esteem the opposite sex in relation to oneself.

[JMeganSnow]

I didn't think it was fair to say that because I was careful to not run my mouth on something I wasn't 100% sure of, I was responsible for the destruction of cognition as such!

Well you were! Cognition-destroyer! Be more careful next time!

Okay, that was dumb. As a moderator I'm entitled to be silly occasionally, right? I swear it's in the forum rules somewhere . . .

Anyway I acted immoderately (hah!) and I apologize.

[Inspector]

Well you were!  Cognition-destroyer!  Be more careful next time! 

Okay, that was dumb.    As a moderator I'm entitled to be silly occasionally, right?  I swear it's in the forum rules somewhere . . .

Anyway I acted immoderately (hah!) and I apologize.

LOL, I accept your apology. And I think silliness is located in paragraph 4, subsection 6.

[daniel]

Is there something inherently un-masculine about pink shirts?  My dad used to have a pink shirt and he looked GREAT in it.  Unfortunately he didn't like to wear it very often.

I don't consider myself unfeminine, and I like to wear blue jeans and clunky work boots.  Femininity is more your attitude towards men, not your own personal style.  I'm nearly six feet tall and heavily built (that's not a euphemism for overweight, which I also am, it's the literal truth, I have broad shoulders, a square jaw, and a lot of muscle) and I found that frills tend to look ridiculous on me.  I also had very short hair, although I've grown it out a little bit since then.

Unfortunately this does mean that I get hit on by lesbians occasionally; I don't mind, I mean, who could tell?  And I think it's the same way with men.  There's nothing in reality to say that a particular style is feminine/masculine.  What there is, is a tradition of adopting  a particular style in order to advertise a particular view.

There are a number of ways to think about it, really:  Are you trying (consciously or subconsciously) to communicate something in particular?  Are you imitating people you admire?  Dressing up features you like?  Do you think pink brings out your complexion?

As long as you maintain a healthy attitude towards women and don't mind occasional mistaken advances, who gives a damn?

(On a side note, I know homosexuals that have perfectly healthy relationships with the opposite sex . . . they just don't, for whatever reason, want to sleep with them.)

There is nothing inherently un-masculine about pink shirts, in fact i read somewhere that in Victorian England it was viewed as masculine. It's just when society see's pink on a man it thinks 'camp'. I think your third last paragraph hits upon something - i wear pink because it is different and a tad daring, I know people in my circles (right wing circles) are wondering about me and if I'm to be honest I suppose that feeds my ego.

As there is nothing inherent about being 'camp', I'm beginning to view that to be camp is not to deny reality as the people who are saying it is camp are just my contempoaries and reality is of course independent of man's feelings, fears etc. Is this right in your view?

Edited September 4, 2005 by daniel

[jrs]

I would assume that masculinity is a man's attitude towards women, but since I'm not a man I really don't have any firsthand experience of the internal mechanisms of it, so I chose to confine my comments to my own experiences.

I think that women tend to be more oriented towards building and maintaining relationships with other people. While men tend to be more oriented to trying to conquer the material world and women.

daniel:

Would you consider "metrosexual" to be a synonym of "camp"?

[daniel]

I think that women tend to be more oriented towards building and maintaining relationships with other people.  While men tend to be more oriented to trying to conquer the material world and women.

daniel:

Would you consider "metrosexual" to be a synonym of "camp"?

I consider men who are metrosexual to be hetrosexual, whereas camp men can be straight or gay. However in the way they behave and come across I view them as the same, though I think being camp CAN be a much higher level i.e behaving MUCH more femine.

Also i came across this in Reason Magazine:

In a 1964 interview, she affirmed that women, like men, should build their lives around work: "What is proper for a man is proper for a woman....There is no particular work which is specifically feminine." Her novels reflect that: Kira Argounova in We the Living and Dagny Taggart in Atlas Shrugged both choose "unfeminine" careers, engineering and railroad operations.

So a man who becomes, say, a beauty therapist (seen as femine by society) is not wrong to do so. If he is not wrong in this aspect is it safe to say he is not wrong to wear pink, walk in a femine way and show other femine traits?

Edited September 4, 2005 by daniel

[DavidOdden]

I suppose i am camp, but i'm happy with wearing pink shirts and walking and talking the way I do.

Well, I'm a manly man and I wear pink shirts (some of the time), so you can totally forget about the pink shirt thing. I advise against pink pants, though. The one thing you can be sure of is that Rand never advocated denying nature, so if it's in your nature to walk like a girl (and I mean that in the nicest way), then it would be just plain wrong for you to walk like me. If you walk the way you do because of a bunion and a torn ligament, then there's no sense in which your walk could be wrong. If you chose to walk the way you do, then the obvious question is, why? If it's "so that I can fit in with the crowd better, even though I hate it", then it's wrong. When you ask a moral question about whether it's right or wrong, the rightness is not intrinsic to the action. So if your behavior is a recognition of optional values, then it's right; if your behavior is a denial of your nature, it's wrong.