Is it immoral to lie about my principles?

[Lemuel]

Clearly I valued my overall happiness above standing by what I believe in.

This is where you betray yourself, skap35. It is an issue of value heirarchy, indeed, but you put those relationships before your values, and if I'm right the result is guilt. Not the kind of guilt that as if you've perpetrated an evil against someone, but the kind that comes with compromising your values, and knowing it. Enough of this becomes shame.

Which is more painful - a perceived estrangement from people who accept a different moral code than yours, or paying lip service to your family (in the form of religious participation, no matter how trivial) at the expense of your Objectivist values? Being lonely, or involved in a romance with someone who thinks your values are evil?

Keeping this kind of secret to yourself, in such close proximity to your family and lover, can gnaw at you psychologically. Eventually, your behavior will be affected by it to the point where you'll either give in completely and abandon your values, engage in a series of irrational behaviors to keep it hidden and deflect others' attention, or cause you to violently explode in admission ... by that time it's too late.

Now, I certainly don't think it's fruitful to wear atheist on your sleeve. It's dangerous and bad-mannered. What I recommend is that, the next time you visit your family, politely decline their invitation to church. Find something to replace the activity ("gee, Mom, I wanted to spend time with you and the folks, and relax a little bit ... why don't we skip church and beat the brunch crowd?").

With a potential lover, the same applies. Think of atheism as what it is, a consequence of a benevolent reality where great things are possible with the application of your mind. The word "atheist" is a negative term, and those who are Believers immediately respond emotionally to a statement of rejection. Instead of rejecting them, show them what you believe - what you know - to be true. Don't treat them with comtempt, treat them as if they haven't seen the light yet. Even with a lover, your solid yet benevolent attitudes will rub off more than wishy-washy superstition ever will.

Edited September 13, 2005 by synthlord

[FeatherFall]

At the moment, I haven't really studied Rand's arguments for how the existence of the supernatural can be disproved, so I don't want to really make that conclusion until I'm convinced, but even if I were a declared athiest, I would probably not give friends or girlfriends a definite "I'm an athiest" declaration until I knew that it wouldn't put them off at all.

The existence of the supernatural cannot be disproved. By it's very nature, it is immune to sensory perception and reason, and is therefore immune to proof. In other words it's arbitrary. In a very meaningful way, it is nonsense. It is folly to believe in something for which you have no evidence.

Because atheism is a negative claim, it seems pointless to define yourself by the term, unless asked directly. Synthlord gave some helpful advice regarding atheism in his last post. He was on target when he advised to put forth what you do believe in. I suggest highlighting things like honesty, justice, beauty and the pursuit of happiness. These are things that most people in America associate with religion, and they will be happy to know that someone else believes in them also.

[erik]

For all you single men and women out there. Don't lie or hide things about yourself with other people. Especially potential mates. Before you know it you might be married with a kid and the lie going to cause a problem. Especially the one with regard to religion. I told my wife I was not religeous up front. She was brought up in Church but has rejected organized religion. The only thing she can't get away from is the hope for an afterlife. Its an enticing idea, although not one I believe in. When you care about someone a lot and have been raised that there is an afterlife, I can see where that would be a really hard concept to give up. It does not effect here everyday life or decision making process though so I really don't have problem with that.

Edited September 13, 2005 by erik

[The Guru Kid]

When i told my mom i was an athiest, she was really angry with me. But fortunately, she's cool enough to not touch the issue too often. Maybe it's becaus she thinks she can still convert me but either way, i feel much better now that's out in the open.

Yes, you don't have to tell your parents about this issue, but what if they ask? I disagree with JMeganSnow on this because i think you should at least give it a try and see whether they have the potential for understanding.

If the situation occured where they were about to disown me for becoming an atheist, it would then be perfectly moral to lie and "see the light of God".

[Aphex_Twin]

Interesting question.

If you think about it, most people don't give a damn about religion. Yes, there are some active elements, but the general feeling today is that it doesn't matter (except for Easter and Christmas - but neither then is it THAT big of a deal). Equally so, most aren't that interested in politics.

I generally keep a low profile when dealing with zealous Socialists and Theists (if there's a diference between them ) mainly because I'm polite, don't want to destroy their arguments and seek to be entertained. Well, when provoked the mask falls off. But you generally don't seek the company of one who expounds his beliefs into the world every minute of every day.

[TheNewIntellectual]

skap,

Regarding honesty, my interpretation of Objectivist philosophy is that dishonesty is only immoral if the recipient is an honest person. The idea is that we do not owe honesty to anyone who does not afford us that same respect. If, however, the recipient is a dishonest person, it is not necessarily wrong to practice complete honesty with them, especially if there is a value for you to gain in doing so.

On the other hand, gaining a value through dishonesty is always a form of fraud, unless that value is self-preservationist in nature (such as lying to avoid arrest or prosecution by authorities enforcing an unjust law [not 100% sure about this example]). Although feigning belief in Catholicism to appease your family might not be proper, I'm sure going through the motions with a neutral mindset (since you know that none of it means anything to you) would be just fine. Just as long as it's wine and not grape juice, that is (Talk about blasphemy...).

Even if you should decide that it was immoral to lie to your ex-girlfriend, I don't think your memories should become any less fond. We can't change the things we've done; we can only take responsibility for them and act accordingly the next time around.

[softwareNerd]

I'm really not sure about that. I do feel guilty because I probably should have told the truth. But one reason I'm reluctant to do so is that, in my experience, people tend to be very tolerant of other religions. But when it comes to Atheists, they are openly hostile toward me. But then again, I suppose if I am building a relationship based on trust, I should be honest about things.

With a girl friend, being honest is the only way to go. Of course this does not mean that when a girl says she could never go out with an atheist, you simply say you're an atheist and quit! You can instead try to figure out what she means. Is she extremely religious? Is she mildly, conventionally religious ? Does she think that being religious is close to synonymous with being a serious, honest, hard-working person.

Think of a similar situation. You meet an interesting girl. She seems self-assured, intellectual, has a zest for life, etc. etc (whatever your imagination wishes to fill in). However, she's never read Ayn Rand. And she says to you: "I don't like selfish people; I could never go out with a selfish person."

[KevinD]

[W]hat if you are single and meet a lovely person, whom you are attracted to, and that person really thinks it is important whether you believe in God or not -- what do you do?

You lie.

You lie and say that you believe in God and then, when you are a couple, you constantly inject rational values into the relationsship. Give it a few years and you'll win, if you believe in free will. [. . .]

I have tried this myself. When I first met my wife, she was very religious. It was important for her that I believed in God. . . . She is now my lover, best friend and fellow student of Objectivism.

Mr. Soulsurfer neglects to mention that his "lover, best friend and fellow student of Objectivism" is also his literal slave.

Guy can't even spell "relationship."

[gags]

What a strange and contradictory fellow.

[the tortured one]

Ever since I decided that I was an athiest, I have tried to not make a big deal of it. I don't go out of my way to hide it, but I ain't flaunting it either. I find that people who run up and down the street screaming "I am an athiest!" are more often than not looking for attention.

as for my friends, my friends know I am an atheist. They met me with shock at first "You don't believe in God!?" like they had never met an atheist before. Most tried to question me, or defend their faith, but I retorted with this: "If I told you I was a methodist, or Catholic, or Hindu, or anything other than your faith, would you be acting this way?"

the universal answer is "uhhh, no"

"ok then, my next question is this: does it change anything? Will you look down on me because of my belief (or lack thereof)?"

"I guess not"

It's a great way to filter who are your friends and who aren't. If someone responds with shock at your atheism, ask them if it changes anything. If it does, you probably don't want to be associating with them anyway.

as for girls, I say that I do not practice religion. If that drives them away, oh well. My work is my happiness, not my association with others. I can be comfortable with others, with a girlfriend, or with no one at all. Amusingly, when it comes to situations like those, I ask myself: WWRD? What Would Roark Do? It harkens back to my days as a christian, but I find myself much happier adhering to WWRD than WWJD.

as for my family, I have told my little brother and sister, and from what I've heard, my mom knows. My Brother doesn't think much about it, as we are best of friends. My sister is some sort of weird post-modern christian, not entirely convinced by literalism preached by the hard-liners, but still skeptical at the notion that nothing supernatural exists. I am more well rounded philosophically than her, so she avoids any metaphysical debates with me, partly because she has spent the better part of her active philosophical life looking up to me for political advice.

My mom found out from my sister. I share a great relation with her, thus it obviously isn't an issue with her. From what my sis tells me, she hopes that my atheism is only a phase that I am going through. That is fine with me, because she no longer asks me to say dinner prayer. My mother, being a recovered alcoholic, knows that change occurs within a person first, and outside interference only puts a person on the defensive. She had to admit to herself first that she was an alcoholic before she sought to correct herself. And for that I am grateful

My Dad, however, is the tricky one. He was at one time a hard line Objectivist, but nowadays has rediscovered religion and is more like Lew Rockwell than Ayn Rand. I think he was one of those who were disillusioned with the breakup of the NBI, who rediscovered religion when he had children. Thus he is still mildly friendly to Objectivism and Ayn Rand (it was he who encouraged me to read Atlas Shrugged, which was my first introduction to Ayn Rand) but I find that as I delve deeper into Objectivism, he has tried to non-chalantly persuade me to more libertarian thinkers like Murray Rothbard. The ARI's support on the war on terror has further diminished his support for Objectivism, because he knows that I am heading to the military, and the Idea of me dying in Iraq terrifies him. It's gotten to the point where he likes Michael Moore and liberal anti-Bush fanatics who are always looking to deride the war on terror, despite the fact that politically he is about as right-wing as Ludwig Von Mises.

that is my dilemma; how do I break it to him? He has spend the better part of 25 years rationalizing his fall out from Objectivism and he spends most of his free time reading anti-war on terror media. So far I have avoided confrontation, but I feel like it is coming to a focal point where everything will happen at once. And he is much better at debate than I, despite my frantic studying of Objectivism, Atheism, and the War. Like Alan Greenspan looking at an economic bubble, I am trying to soften it up for when it is time to deal with it, but right now, I don't know when is the time to move, and when is the time to wait. I don't need his approval to live my life (I do quite well enough on my own,) but it is something I would like.

thoughts anyone?

Edited September 14, 2005 by the tortured one

[Lemuel]

As a fellow atheist who "doesn't flaunt it", I'd wait until the issue comes up with your father. Don't force it, but even if it does come up in conversation, I think you're in a decent position.

Your father, once an Objectivist, understands your position (even if he's fallen from the path). Describe yourself as an Objectivist, and if he tries to debate you, politely decline. Ultimately, you can preserve your relationship with him by taking an "if I'm wrong, I'll figure it out on my own" stance. You're not really compromising your values, and the appeal to individualism is a safe way of "agreeing to disagree".

Perhaps, in time, he'll discover the "key log" that's keeping him from returning to Objectivist thought, and you'll be there to help.

Edited September 15, 2005 by synthlord

[Dan Bidewell]

It is odd watching Americans wrestle with religios issues. Here England, for vast majority of people - it is pretty irrelevant.

[the tortured one]

It's hard to understand, Dan, but in America there has been a sort of counter-sexual revolution. After the sixties and seventies era of free love and liberalism, there has been a renewal of conservatism and "family values" (last election, polls found Family Values as the most important factor in voting) Parents who once defied their parents by sleeping with every person they could grab are now horrified at the fact that they, now are parents and their children are doing the same thing. How many people here, when inquiring in to the lifestyle of their parents prior to their marriage, hear the phrase "It was a different time"?

I think that there is a greater percentage of declared atheists in America than England, but in America people are more evangelical about their religion (or lack thereof.) Perfect example is the recent scandals at the Air Force Academy, when several Jewish students dropped out because they were getting jeered at because their people "killed Jesus."

Thanks for the advice, Synthlord. I doubt he will ever be a true Objectivist again, but as long as I maintain an individualist stance, he can at least understand how I think. Oddly, anyone listening to him would swear he was an Objectivist, such as his rejection of Anarchism and reliance on reason... until you discuss his religion, then you find a man who prays before he goes to bed and before every meal.

As much as I like the "if I'm wrong, I'll figure it out on my own" stance, I can already see his retort: "you'd prefer to find out when you're bleeding to death from an Iraqi suicide bomber?"

What was that quote about advice being that it is when you want an answer to a question whose answer you already know but was afraid to ask? It's strange how one sometimes knows the answer but just needs to hear it from others for validation.

[FeatherFall]

This may be a little off topic, but it does add clarity to the role of family values in the last election. It was my understanding that the polls separated issues like terrorism, the war in Iraq, etc. Therefore, the real main issue (National Defense) was handicapped and got less spotlight than it deserved. I don't have a reference for this anymore, but I remember tallying up the National Defense issues in one poll and it was most important to significantly more people.

[daniel]

It's hard to understand, Dan, but in America there has been a sort of counter-sexual revolution. After the sixties and seventies era of free love and liberalism, there has been a renewal of conservatism and "family values" (last election, polls found Family Values as the most important factor in voting) Parents who once defied their parents by sleeping with every person they could grab are now horrified at the fact that they, now are parents and their children are doing the same thing. How many people here, when inquiring in to the lifestyle of their parents prior to their marriage, hear the phrase "It was a different time"?

Things are pretty much the opposite in the UK. Only 1 in 20 people go to church, people mock religion (for the 2001 census around 40,000 people claimed their relgion was Jedhi [from Star Wars] and now, due to the high number, it is classed as a religion in the UK) and the UK has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe. Though church and state are united in the UK but people who are members of the church of England (like me) rarely bother - I haven't been to church in 19 years - since I was christened (i wasn't chrisented because my parents are religious but rather because its the done thing). Though the BBC is showing a program about the silver ring thing, which just comes across as odd.

Edited September 15, 2005 by daniel

[source]

If the situation occured where they were about to disown me for becoming an atheist, it would then be perfectly moral to lie and "see the light of God".

And just how would that be moral?

[JMeganSnow]

And just how would that be moral?

It's only moral if you're of an age where you can't support yourself yet. Parents have the right to ask that their children comply with their rules, but not to dictate the content of their consciousness.

As an alternative to saying "I'm an atheist" you can just say "I'm not religious", which is true, but less threatening.

[iouswuoibev]

As an Objectivist I am an Atheist. I was raised as a Catholic and most of my family is religious (though not very much; they really don't even go to church). If I ever told them what I think, I know they wouldn't necessarily disown me, but I do know they would be horrified. So when my family does go to church (Christmas and Easter only) I go through the motions and get my communion like everyone else, even though I don't believe in it one bit.

Whether it is morally right or not depends on your attitude towards your own beliefs. What you must NEVER do is accept their standards over your own. In other words, you should never feel guilty about what you've arrived at of your own independant judgement.

I used to feel this way about any value I had. I have had uncommon interests throughout my life and was very unpopular at school. I begin to feel that my passions were something to be hidden - not merely as a way of diplomatically avoiding conflict and drawing unwanted attention, but because I actually started to genuinely believe that my values were bad - because other people didn't value them! And the inverse became true as well. Remember Wynand's "halo" around things he owned? Well, for me it was a pair of devil's horns. The things I valued became like a stain of [EDIT: condemnation] for me. This is a trap you really don't want to fall into.

I think you should give serious question to just how much you value your family (individually). Ask why you value who they are and why (and if) they value who you are. You may be surprised to discover you had supressed feelings about them that you didn't want to acknowledge. That's for you to discover. What you must never do is [EDIT: place] any significance merely on the biological connection you share with them.

I hope that helps.

Edited November 2, 2005 by iouswuoibev

[MisterSwig]

... when my family does go to church (Christmas and Easter only) I go through the motions and get my communion like everyone else, even though I don't believe in it one bit.

Another issue is with my ex-girlfriend. On our first date she asked me my religion. I gave a non-committal answer of "I was raised Catholic but I don't go to church or anything."

... So was there anything wrong with how I have handled those two situations?

Yes, there was something wrong. You gained values by deceiving others. You gained/kept your family's love and respect by fooling them into believing you're a good communion-taking Catholic. And you gained your girlfriend's love and affection by fooling her, too. It is not right to deceive others like that. You are robbing them of the little they still deserve from you: honesty. You aren't helping yourself either. You would achieve more happiness if you focused your energy on finding friends and family members who are open to rational ideas like atheism.

If you're worried about your family disowning you or giving you a hard time for being an atheist, then you should compare that to a life of defrauding your loved ones. Which do you think is worse?

[Labor omnia vincit]

Sorry to barge in with no proper presentation of myself, but this was an interesting topic...

In my eyes the question is what matters to you more.

Everyone knows I'm an atheist, but so is pretty much everyone I know and matters to me, so it's not really a problem. I do go to the synagogue when someone in my family celebrates an event there, like a groom shabbas or a bar mitzva, because my relatives are happy when I come, and making them happy makes me more happy than staying at home and not going.

Your ex. Now I've had issues with relationships myself. I never lie, but I date girls that are less than the "manifestation of all values combined blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.." because frankly? I can't seem to find too many that are. But they all know who I am and usually want to stay with me because of it. I found that honesty and above that, openess really is the best policy, if what you're looking for is a serious relationship. I'm sure that you answered this question to yourself many times afterwards, every time she brought religion up. Think about it this way, if you had to lie to her for her to keep you around, she probably doesnt love the real you. This kind of cancels out any good experience she had with you, because it wasn't you she was having it with. It was with a catholic, which obviously in her mind stands for a whole array of values, that you definately do not hold.