Atheists On The Offensive

[Gazz]

Hey Everyone,

I put this on another forum (www.ravingatheist.com), additionally I am new here, so if this is the wrong spot please move the thread and accept my apologies.

Basically I would like to find some popular Theistic forums, preferably Christian (since it’s most prominent in the west) and launch some debates.

Justification for an offensive? Well, to make it REALLY short: They knock on my door monthly, invade my television screen, bang on our school doors politically, and currently in the USA there are 4 churches for every 1 school. Religion is literally a non-taxed con-game Short-circuiting the critical thinking of our masses.

Faith is being taught and pushed on our society more than REASON and education, i think being *respectful* of their views is a copout on our part. We don’t have to be insulting or rude, but we also don’t have to respect their position of faith as an informed intellectual decision and philosophical position. Religion has retarded social and moral progress as Bertrand R. basically puts it.

Ok, the pep talk is over, does anyone have any links to forums of the like? If not, ill look around...how many people are on board?

V/R

G

[Groovenstein]

Your time and effort would be much better spent on something other than trying to polish turds. Focus on finding a receptive audience. People with no stance on something are generally easier to persuade than those with an opposite stance.

[softwareNerd]

Just type "christian forums" in to google. Some of them do not welcome non-believers. Others have special areas (e.g. sub-forums) where they will debate non-Christians. On the whole, unless your intention is learning or prospecting, it's probably a lost cause.

[Jingles]

I don't know if such an offensive is needed in America where you have religious freedom but in many countries, such as the UK, we have a state religion. Apart from having to pay for the whole church apparatus with our tax money (when, ironically, we're one of the most secular countries in the world) there is another very worrying issue.

Children are indoctrinated with the Anglican faith as soon as they start primary school right through until they finish high school and are actually punished when they refuse to take part in prayers- and this happens in standard schools not just faith based schools. As someone who has gone through such an education system I'm inclined to agree with you Gazz.

[softwareNerd]

As "Groovenstein" said, be selfish and find a more receptive audience. If you want to vent, you might go fight with some Christians, but my guess is you will find the experience draining. I just followed my own suggestion (above) and browsed a few Christian forums. The effect is best described as "anti-art". One is left with the head-shaking feeling of: how can so many people, who are modern enough to be using internet forums, be so devoid of any ability to reason.

You think you'll debate them? How? Reason? Hah! Read some posts, you'll see people explicitly state that the Bible is the word of God and reason is secondary. Their method of thinking is not reason.

I found a thread on "Masturbation", which got me curious because we had a recent thread. So, I wanted to compare and contrast.It started with ambivalence about whether it's a sin or a bad habit or neither. Soon enough it turned to clear-cut agreement on the evil of masturbation and how it has to be the devil that put thoughts like this into people's heads. And one guy, with all the forcefulness of convincing argument, quoted a passage from Mark about not being lustful and not doing bad stuff with "your right hand"... I kid you not. It seems funny at first glance, but on reflection -- that these are real, living people, not comedians -- I find it sickening.

You'll find some on the left (e.g. the worshippers of Gaia) just as bad.

So, here is what I figure: if you really want to debate and to change minds, find forums that have the better sort of right or left wingers. Find a right wing group where members are attempting to justify their position by reason, or a left-wing group that is trying to do the same. Perhaps you'll have more success there.

[Unconquered]

Children are indoctrinated with the Anglican faith as soon as they start primary school right through until they finish high school and are actually punished when they refuse to take part in prayers- and this happens in standard schools not just faith based schools.

Wow, I'd never heard about that before. Incredible.

Are there entirely secular private schools where parents can send their kids without that kind of indoctrination?

[mailegreene]

Jingles-- are you reffering to the private or the public school system? Or both perhaps?

I recall seeing a news story a while back where a few students at a military institution reported that they had experienced severe pressure from the faculty to adopt a theistic philosophy. Apparently, the nonbelievers' privileges were severly restricted in the hope that they would adopt the christian faith.

In my experience in the public school system, most of the indoctrination occurs in the form of politically correct ideas. But the situation is much different at present.

[Jingles]

Wow, I'd never heard about that before. Incredible.

Are there entirely secular private schools where parents can send their kids without that kind of indoctrination?

Jingles-- are you reffering to the private or the public school system? Or both perhaps?

There are probably private secular schools out there but the state school system (and probably a lot of the private schools which tend to be very traditional) instils religious values. Perhaps schools in different parts of the country are more lenient but the schools in my area are particularly strict about religion and Welsh nationalism.

[Gazz]

Interesting,

I see your point about polishing a turd, and It is quite obvious that the use of reason may be beyond many of the theists immediate grasp.

That is terrible about the UK, I did not know religion was in public schools and paid for by taxes.

Makes my complaints from the USA seem minimal. However our culture is typically looked at and copied by many other countries. If we started a reason over faith trend, it may push outwards. Especially since we have a "war on terror" which is ironically a war on people that just take the same type of irrationality to an extreme. The irony is in the failure to recognize both sides are suffering from the same sickness; one is just more progressed in its symptoms.

When you look at the fact that 96% of Americans believe in God, and 73% believe that angels visit the earth, you realize that even with the rise of technology and science our population still suffers from ignorance and fear/emotional based delusions and beliefs.

As nice and comforting a thought as faith may be it definitely leads to a mental and societal stagnation, and in the long run what is scary is that it may lead to the end of civilization. While everyone sits around and waits for the rapture our world population will keep increasing , which means by around 2600 we will literally be standing shoulder to shoulder on this planet and the electricity consumption would make the earth glow red hot.

If faith is allowed to stifle science, and govern (short-circuit) the thinking of our populace, the results could be a self-induced "rapture" that leads to nothing but our extinction and non-existence, we will all go back to being "stardust".

In the USA we have the opportunity to speak out and slap faith straight on the face with its own ignorance, we can hold up the mirror and demand a spade be called a spade for the good of mankind. Hopefully we can set the example for others like the UK, and then truly will be have a legitimate right to look at Islam and point the finger of fundamentalist shame.

As a side note: I own a small production company, and am thinking about producing a small series of shows titled "The war on faith", I think going out an actively debating Theists on their own forums could shed some light as to how I should script the shows, and divide the topics...if anyone has any Production Exp. or is interested in helping with the show either financially or with any other services (web links, marketing, graphics...etc..) it would be much appreciated as the show idea is in the infant stage. If interested in helping in any capacity please email me [email protected].

So anyway, ill be looking for some forums, so far my google search has found many, but none that seem to welcome outside debate, in fact many specifically have rules against it, and will ban any poster who differs in opinion.

G

Edited October 8, 2005 by Gazz

[softwareNerd]

Regardless of the official teaching in UK schools and regardless of the Queen's role as head of the church, the actual figures of church attendance and the power of religious groups would show that the US "leads" the UK in religiosity.

[Hakarmaskannar]

It's true that here in the UK we have little choice about religion being taught, even to the very young. My kids are taught in a (mostly) reasonable school, with good groundings in basics for the main subjects (they teach phonics from the start for reading, thankfully), but are sometimes taught 'good morals' via bible stories that 'teach good values' and proper behaviour. Also, as part of the Autumn(Fall) term cirriculum the kids will be "retelling some of the parables of Jesus through roleplay and written work."

I've also voiced concerns to my wife regarding the teaching of 'Respect for the Environment' but since it seems to be limited to giving the kids information about the natural world I'm holding off on getting involved with the faculty until I find any irrational 'respect being touted in the classroom itself

Unfortunately, there aren't any options regarding this other than for me to teach my children to think and analyse information for themselves. Hopefully I'll manage that before they're teenagers

[Jingles]

Regardless of the official teaching in UK schools and regardless of the Queen's role as head of the church, the actual figures of church attendance and the power of religious groups would show that the US "leads" the UK in religiosity.

My theory is that having religious teachings force fed to us has allowed people in countries like the UK to realise how ridiculous, meaningless and down right annoying such mysticism is (at least on a subconcious level) and that maybe we've developed a 'resistance' to it.

[Captain Nate]

Basically I would like to find some popular Theistic forums, preferably Christian (since it’s most prominent in the west) and launch some debates.

I think this is the surest way to find yourself labeled a troll and waste your time being ignored.

[Gazz]

"I think this is the surest way to find yourself labeled a troll and waste your time being ignored."

Well, If we have permission from the forum owner/mods to post such a topic in advance we can avoid the whole trolling label.

Being ignored is quite possible, especially when it comes to specific points that we might make. Much of our debate may go over their heads, since they may not have the intellectual capacity to understand, or more likely be emotionaly ready to entertain ideas contrary to their existing belief systems.

What does give me hope is the amount of atheists I meet on forums and in person who once held deep religious beliefs. Most people dont start out Atheist, the acquire an education and freethought and become that way. We should at least attempt to provide that education, and hope to plant that nugget of freethought into the *flock* of mindless followers.

G

[FeatherFall]

Actually, everybody starts out athiest. Religion is something one learns.

[Gazz]

Actually, everybody starts out athiest. Religion is something one learns.

True enough, but for many its like learning a language, a child may not have the option to *choose* the langauge they learn, but speak it anyhow by the time they are fully developed....so back to topic if your done nitpicking!

G

Ok, found one

I emailed the site owner the following....still awaiting his reply..

"Dear Mr. Thompson,

I have been reading through your forum (http://www.christianforums.net/), particularly the Apologetics section and find the arguments *wanting* on both sides.

I would like to have your permission to sign onto your forum and debate some topics. I may also bring a few of my comrades from an atheist website to join the debates.

I will avoid personal attacks, and keep the debate as civil and respectful as possible.

I have read your policy “Any person(s) who comes to these forums to attack Christianity or Christians personally will be banned based on the discretion of the Admins & Mods.”,

To properly debate, aspects of Christianity will have to be the subject of debate, if you maintain a forum labeled “apologetics”, yet do not welcome attacks on the principles of Christianity; you are doing yourself a disservice. Not to mention insulating yourself from all outside critique and thoughtful debate.

I propose we be allowed to start topics such as

Philosophical arguments for god

Scientific arguments for god

Faith Vs Reason

The historicity of Jesus

Bible accuracy and contradictions

The god of Christianity

Revelation

The design arguments

The sins of Christianity

Ethics and rationality

Thanks for reading; I hope you will consider testing your knowledge, intellectual honesty, faith and integrity via a respectful debate on the beliefs you promote.

Also be advised: This email and your responses will be made public, I await your answer..

Best Regards,

Gary R."

[FeatherFall]

What about, "Christian ethics; the inversion of justice?"

Edited October 10, 2005 by FeatherFall

[Jingles]

I believe this sort of thing could be applied to socialist forums too. I was once a socialist in my early teens and I think that a lot of young people would benefit from knowing there is a rational alternative out there, I know I would have appreciated it. And of course rational individuals would benefit too- it couldn't hurt to have a few less lefties running around and doing their best to enslave us all.

One such forum is http://www.revolutionaryleft.com. When I last visited a few months ago the posts in the 'Opposing Ideologies' section effectively ripped apart Marxism but I felt that the confused little tykes just didn't know what else to believe in if they abandoned communism.

[The Owl]

There are numerous atheists (I think mostly from internet infidels) already posting here...

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/index.php?

And polite non-Christians are welcome, at least in most of the site's "rooms."

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=30389

So some of you may wonder what we are all about. While we are a Christian-owned forum, we are not a Christian forum in the way that is usually spoken of. In other words, our membership is open to all worldviews, and criticisms and challenges to Christianity are allowed. We just ask that members be mindful of any restrictions particular to any forum area. Very little is completely forbidden, but it may be restricted to certain forum areas.

This sort of thing is no longer my cup of tea, personally, but I guess if it is yours this looks like a good site to enter into these sorts of debates. As a plus, it also looks quite active.

[Richard Rahl]

You can't debate with circular logic, which by definition is required to believe in God. Worse, you can't debate with people that don't recognize anything but a book that was written 2000 years ago, and then so heavily edited by the Roman Catholic Church over the next 350 years so as to be completely unrecognizable and fit with the position of the winning side in the "Self-determination" versus "God and church as everything" fight that happened around that time. (And then it took 1000 years for it to finally come to the fore, and the result was Protestantism, and even then, they still have to work from a book that is largely fiction by this point.)

You can’t debate philosophy with people that don’t know why they believe what they do. “Because God said so” is not a reason why, it’s an excuse. The point being, that if the person only knows the bible as a reason for their entire basis for life, you’re not going to be able to carry on an intelligent debate.

As for the suggestion of doing it in socialist forums: You have the same problem. And since socialists are the result of Altruism and Subjectivism (no matter how much socialists dislike religion, socialism was born from it.), you have a group of people that believe that there is no such thing as the truth, thus arguing is like quicksand, the more you fight the faster you sink. You will not change these people’s mind by carrying on a logical debate. They do not believe in logic.

The only way these people will change is through evolution much like what happened during the renaissance. We must fight back, take back our freedom for ourselves whether it be through a “Galt’s Gulch” or otherwise. Only when we are more prosperous than they, and they are destitute because those that work hard and produce more than they consume are gone will they “vote with their feet” as the author of “The Capitalist Manifesto” puts it and embrace that which makes their lives better. But make no mistake, this, if started today, would take centuries to bring us back to the heady days of the founding fathers of the United States and many more to build a nation that understands why it believes what it does, and thus protect it, where the founding fathers did not, despite their best efforts. (as exemplified by the American government’s theft of your money to support the “victims” of Katrina)

Edited October 16, 2005 by Richard Rahl

[gadfly]

I see your point about treating them in kind, but this rational "witnessing" would be a waste of your time. If you luck out and can find someone who takes a philosophical approach to religion (as opposed to a fundamentalist wacko) you might get some practice by debating them.

In a fundamentalist forum, I'm sure you are just going to get Bible quotes and no thinking. It will be neither productive nor enjoyable.

[softwareNerd]

Richard, I agree with the sentiment that the best thing Objectivists can do is be successful and happy. Firstly, this is selfish. Secondly, it is showing by example.

I disagree that non-Objectivists are uniformly, hopelessly illogical. It's probably true that many socialists have never even thought to question the idea that altruism and being good are synonymous. However, I would wager that a fair number of today's Objectivists would not have questioned the idea either if Ayn Rand had never pointed it out.

The only way to change the world at large is one mind at a time. The world is not what it is today because it is run by evil bureaucrats. There is much good in the world. That good is enslaved to evil. There are some good people enslaved to evil people. That is not the real problem though. The real problem is that there are many people who are extremely good [honest, hardworking, intelligent] who enslave that part of themselves to the other set of [evil] ideas that they themselves hold. In another thread, there was a discussion about Gates and Buffett. These people are not successful primarily because of the bad parts of their character and philosophy. Evil as such is impotent. The potency of evil comes from the good that enslaves itself to the service of evil -- often in the same person.

Unfortunately, these successful people have often simply shrugged off philosophy, but continue to accept altruistism in principle. They pretty much get on by applying their intelligence and energy to their work and they accept the prevailing intellectual ideas in philosophy and politics. That is why it is important to win the battle of ideas. It may be true that modern intellectuals are illogical. However, that does not mean they do not need the veneer of rationality. Without that, they will be finished. Even the religious right looks to things like "Intelligent Design".

Tactically, the battle has many fronts:

• Be successful, and happy as an Objectivist. Enjoy life; it is primary. Converting others is secondary.
  
• The long-term battle has to be won among the intellectuals
  
• The short-term battle is best won by addressing the young, who are still looking for ideas, and by addressing businessmen, who can bankroll more evangelism.
  

Happily, ARI is addressing most of this.