Re-reading the Fountainhead

[BlackSabbath]

I'm re-reading the Fountainhead at the moment and this is a subject I'll probably come back to as the book unfolds. I'm at page 90 at the moment where Roark has been fooled by an article written by Gordon L. Prescott.

I've read past the bit where Peter Keating notices that Stengel, the best designer in the office, is going nowhere where he is but is planning to set up on his own. He then arranges for one of his acquaintances to give Stengel a start. Stengel has frozen Keating out and refuses all his attempts to make friends with him.

Stengel responds by telling Keating, to his mystification, " You're a worse bastard than I thought you were. Good luck. You'll be a great architect some day."

Is this because he didn't want favours from anyone?

Can anybody expand on the reason why Stengel reacted the way he did?

And is there a lesson to be learned from Henry Cameron? What brings about his downfall?

[Richard_Halley]

It has been a while since I have read that part... but I always thought that Stengel knew what Keating was up to, and did not care because he wanted to go out on his own anyway.

As for Cameron... his only downfall was that he let his lack of success get to him.

[oldsalt]

I have to disagree that Cameron let his lack of success get to him. He was a successful architect. What got to him was having to battle the oatmeal for brains folk and in having his success snatched from him by his inferiors. Roark had the same battle, but was a stronger fighter.

Stengle knew that Keating's machinations on his behalf didn't have anything to do with him, per se. His was a reaction to seeing the depth of Keating's depravity.

[Richard_Halley]

Yes, oldsalt, I should have been more specific. I intended to say that he let his lack of success in their eyes get to him. Roark's pain "only went down so far," Cameron's kept going.

[MinorityOfOne]

In a sense, Dominique, Wynand, and Cameron all exemplify versions of the same mistake: primacy of consciousness. They grant other people's opinions metaphysical import, and end up viewing the universe as malevolent when other people don't recognize values.

Dominique thinks that other people's failure to recognize values, or their hated of values, itself harms those values. She destroys a beautiful statue so it will never be soiled by the sight of the unworthy, and tries to destroy Roark for the same reason. Wynand thinks that other people's opinions are what drives the world, but instead of rebelling against them, he tries to use them. He thinks it's the only way to succeed; that's why the only thing that can cure him is the sight of Roark's success -- the vision of an uncompromising man who is not beaten down. Cameron, like Wynand, thinks it's impossible to succeed when one comes in conflict with others, but he rebels. Unlike Wynand, he refuses to compromise, but unlike Dominique, he does not try to destroy values. He stubbornly continues to pursue what he thinks is good, but he believes the good is incompatible with happiness.

There are a lot of parallels between this issue and the issues discussed in the first lecture of Peikoff's Understanding Objectivism course. There, he discusses the three main reasons people reject philosophy: philosophy vs. practice, philosophy vs. the self, philosophy vs. others. I don't think you can say "well, Dominique has a values vs. others problem, while Cameron has values vs. the self", etc... there's a lot of overlap, and there's some of each in all of the characters. But if you're interested in understanding the issue better, it'd be worth giving a listen to that tape.

[oldsalt]

Matt: You make the point beautifully.

As an aside, I, too, recommend the lectures. Not only will you gain insight (though I think some of Dr. Peikoff's formulations are better in OPAR), but you get the added bonus of hearing Miss Rand answer questions!.

[konerko14]

I am re-reading The Fountainhead right now and I have a couple questions I picked up. I'll probably post a couple more throughout my time reading it, but heres two for now.

1. Why does Guy Francon sit on Roarks side at the Cortlandt trial? He never seemed to be very bright and not someone who would be supporting Roark.

2. Why was Dominique the right woman for Roark? She purposely tortured herself and wouldnt allow herself to be happy. She wanted to destroy Roark. And she always seemed to be acting just so she wouldnt be herself. How was she ever rational, and why was she good for Roark?

[konerko14]

Does anyone know the answers to my questions?

[Bold Standard]

Does anyone know the answers to my questions?

Yes (the second one, anyway). Here is a great interview with Leonard Peikoff where he discusses Dominique, about halfway down the page.

"But I want to start by saying, without giving offense, that Ayn Rand felt a particular indignation against people who said they didn't understand Dominique's psychology. She could accept that they might have problems with Wynand or Toohey, but if they couldn't understand Dominique, then she concluded that they had no concept of idealism—because the essence of Dominique, as I said earlier, is an embittered idealism.

Dominique wants the ideal, she's in love with the good, she won't settle for anything less—however, she's convinced that, by the nature of people as she observes them, the good simply cannot be achieved. Since she won't settle for less, she chooses to want and take nothing from the world. To appreciate her character, you must be able to understand her passionate idealism and her complete despair."

Dominique is the right woman for Roark because she is an intransigent idealist, and Roark is the ideal.

I'll have to reread the court scene to see why Francon sat by Roark. Could it have been because of Dominique?

[konerko14]

Dominique is the right woman for Roark because she is an intransigent idealist, and Roark is the ideal.

I understand. I knew that Dominique knew what was good after she bought a certain statue and also loved Roark and his designs, I was just confused as to why she was right for Roark since she always chose not to do good. But that passage clears it up. Thanks BS.

[Bold Standard]

I knew that Dominique knew what was good after she bought a certain statue and also loved Roark and his designs, I was just confused as to why she was right for Roark since she always chose not to do good.

I think it might be more descriptive to say, she always chose not to do mediocre. She didn't fight Roark because she wanted him to fail-- she wanted him to win, and prove her wrong, but she couldn't quite grasp that as being possible. Contrast that with Wynand, who really did want to see Roark broken, but couldn't defeat him, because of his own integrity.

[konerko14]

I think it might be more descriptive to say, she always chose not to do mediocre. She didn't fight Roark because she wanted him to fail-- she wanted him to win, and prove her wrong, but she couldn't quite grasp that as being possible. Contrast that with Wynand, who really did want to see Roark broken, but couldn't defeat him, because of his own integrity.

So Dominique chose just to fit in with the majority because she thought that she couldnt beat them, is that right? She didnt try to do good or want others to do good because she thought other people would just destroy her and them anyways?

Why did Wynand want Roark destroyed?

[JMeganSnow]

So Dominique chose just to fit in with the majority because she thought that she couldnt beat them, is that right? She didnt try to do good or want others to do good because she thought other people would just destroy her and them anyways?

Why did Wynand want Roark destroyed?

1. Not quite: Dominique couldn't do anything by half-measures. She believed that the good had no chance in the world to be really great; at best it would end up as some kind of twisted, half-measure, sort-of good. In her eyes, this was as bad as defeat: to see the ultimate ideal, to long for it, and have to settle for less. So, instead, she chose to seek the ultimate depravity; she believed that it was at least attainable, and pure depravity is at least pure. So what did she do? She devoted herself to destroying the best architect she knew, the man that she loved. She slept with the man she most despised in the world (Keating), and when she thought she had found a man she despised even more (Wynand), the man who had pawned his soul to every bum with enough money to purchase a paper, she sold herself to him in the most depraved manner she could discover. Why do you think she wanted to be "Mrs. Wynand-Papers"? Or to have that hideous wedding?

2. As for Wynand: he had sold off his integrity, his soul, because he believed that integrity had no chance in the world. So he went after power, because he believed it would make him safe. However, it had the side effect of making him hate integrity: he couldn't bear to see anyone managing to keep hold of the thing he had abandoned. So, he would go out of his way to make other people that had at least the appearance of integrity violate their own principles. (Alva Scarrett remarks on Wynand's occasional outbursts of destruction as a kind of sickness, I believe). At the same time, Wynand can't help but wish to encounter someone that does have that much integrity, because who could really want to believe that the world is evil?

Roark had tremendous integrity, and when Wynand hires him, he feels a brief moment of the same destructive desire, but Roark disarms him because Roark understands the motive behind Wynand . . . and Wynand's secret hope that he will some day meet someone that he can't command.

The Fountainhead is full of really complex character interactions, but I find it's easier if you identify the principle behind each character; then you understand why they do what they do. However, if you're not used to identifying principles behind characters, this can be a very difficult task and the behavior of the various characters can seem completely random and totally inexplicable.

[konerko14]

Ah, now I understand. That was a good clarification. Thanks JMS.

[Bold Standard]

Why did Wynand want Roark destroyed?

There are some really interesting notes about Wynand in Ayn Rand's journals.

But it is Roark who is life's final revenge upon Wynand. When [they] meet, Wynand is 54, Roark is 37. Wynand does not suspect that Dominique had been Roark's mistress, and his attitude toward Roark has no relation to Dominique. Instead of the usual hatred which men of Roark's integrity had always aroused in him, Wynand's reaction is a great, irresistible, unformulated wave of recognition and admiration. He does not understand or analyze it for a long time. He knows only that he needs Roark in some odd, unaccountable manner. Slowly, through their strange relationship of unspoken understanding, Wynand begins to realize that Roark is the symbol of everything he has betrayed; Roark achieved what he had lacked the courage to achieve; Roark is his own self, as he might have been; Roark is his revenge against society, against that mob whom Roark defies and to whom Wynand has surrendered. And although Roark is an external reproach to him, although the mere fact of Roark's existence brings him the first spiritual suffering he has ever allowed himself to experience—Roark becomes Wynand's obsession. Wynand is actually in love with Roark. It is love in every sense but the physical; its base is not in homosexuality; Wynand has never had any tendency in that direction. It is more hero-worship than love, and more religion than hero-worship. Actually, it is Wynand's tribute to his own unrealized greatness. This love has no relation to his love for Dominique; it is not faithlessness to Dominique; and yet, were he ever asked to choose between the two, Wynand would have chosen Roark. Wynand welcomes the torture of loving a man whom he should hate. He finds a dim, twisted sense of atonement in his love for his worst spiritual enemy. He is punishing himself for what he has done—by bowing before what he should have done. It is his first acceptance of an ideal—and his first suffering for its sake. Roark becomes the most precious thing in his life.

Roark's attitude toward Wynand is a deep understanding; in a way—respect; and the only pity he has ever felt for any human being. As to Dominique, she sees the situation, resents it and is frightened by it. To her, there is no other reality and no other concern but Roark. She is jealous of Wynand, of any feeling Roark might have in response to Wynand's adoration of him. It is a triangle—in which the husband and wife are both in love with the same man.

[D'kian]

Stengel responds by telling Keating, to his mystification, " You're a worse bastard than I thought you were. Good luck. You'll be a great architect some day."

Is this because he didn't want favours from anyone?

Can anybody expand on the reason why Stengel reacted the way he did?

In that sequence, Keating helps Stengel start on his own by stealing a client from his boss. That's an utterly unethical and unprofessional act, therefore Stengel brands Keating a worse bastard than he had previously thought (Keating's prior career advancement involved making a friend in order to betray him).

However, Stengel's own action, stealing a client from his boss, is also unethical and unprofessional. That's why he wishes Keating well.

1. Why does Guy Francon sit on Roarks side at the Cortlandt trial? He never seemed to be very bright and not someone who would be supporting Roark.

Francon isn't an entirely evil man. Like most characters in the novel, he is a man of mixed premises. He truly loves his daughter and wants to see her happy, even if he doesn't understand her and possibly never will. He does understand one thing, that Roark is the man for her. Therefore, he supports Dominique by going over to Roark's camp.

Contrast that to his reaction to Keating's wedding to Dominique.

[~Sophia~]

Fragment from TFH:

(when Dominique claimed that she is using the sexual act to express contempt for herself)

Wynand: Most people go to very to very great lenghts in order to convince themselves of their self-respect.

Dominique: Yes.

Wynand: And, of course, a quest for self-respect is proof of its lack.

Dominique: Yes.

Wynand: Do you see the meaning of a quest for self-contempt?

Dominique: That I lack it?

Wynand: And that you will never achieve it.

Dominique: I did not expect you to understand that ether.

Wynand: I won't say anything else - or I'll stop being the person before last in the world and I'll become unsuitable to your purpose.

Is there something final about the states of self-contempt/self-respect?

I agree that the quest for self-respect is an indication that a person does not have it. But why one can "never achieve it"? Surely if we are self made - anything can be achieved, no? If you become what you value, if you live consistently in accordance with your choosen values - why would you not respect yourself? Little puzzling to me.

Looking forward to your answers.

Edited January 27, 2007 by ~Sophia~

[aequalsa]

Fragment from TFH:

(when Dominique claimed that she is using the sexual act to express contempt for herself)

Is there something final about the states of self-contempt/self-respect?

I agree that the quest for self-respect is an indication that a person does not have it. But why one can "never achieve it"? Surely if we are self made - anything can be achieved, no? If you become what you value, if you live consistently in accordance with your choosen values - why would you not respect yourself? Little puzzling to me.

Looking forward to your answers.

She does not say that someone can never achieve self-respect. You reversed it. Wynand says that Dominique will never achieve self-contempt. Ostensibly because if you have self-respect you could not lose it. Your respect for yourself would also make you incapable of acting to destroy it.

[~Sophia~]

She does not say that someone can never achieve self-respect. You reversed it. Wynand says that Dominique will never achieve self-contempt. Ostensibly because if you have self-respect you could not lose it. Your respect for yourself would also make you incapable of acting to destroy it.

I understand what Wynand was saying to Dominique.

I reversed it because he brought up the quest for another self-concept and that if you are trying to reach it - obviously you are not there yet.

I never thought of self-concepts: self-respect, self-assurance, self-esteem as final and never lost ones achieved. I think of them more like psychological states which require continuous nurturing. I have to think about this some more.

[Bold Standard]

I understand what Wynand was saying to Dominique.

I reversed it because he brought up the quest for another self-concept and that if you are trying to reach it - obviously you are not there yet.

I never thought of self-concepts: self-respect, self-assurance, self-esteem as final and never lost ones achieved. I think of them more like psychological states which require continuous nurturing. I have to think about this some more.

I don't think Ayn Rand was trying to state, as a general principle, that self-concepts are final in this excerpt. I think she, and the character Wynand, were both trying to say something more specific about Dominique's character. In the context of the kind of person Dominique was, and the specific choices she was making, it was clear that she could never achieve self-contempt. Wynand--speaking somewhat ironically--compares her to the type of person who seeks self-respect and lacks it. I think that it's significant that Wynand didn't say that the meaning of a quest for self-respect implies that the person will never achieve it, but only that he lacks it; whereas, he doesn't say that Dominique merely lacks self-contempt (she says that), but that she'll never achieve it.

I think Ayn Rand is trying to show that Dominique's quest for self-contempt was *more hopeless* than a typical pathetically self-contemptuous person's quest for self-respect (which might be, but, I would assume, is not necessarily always futile).

Edited January 28, 2007 by Bold Standard

[~Sophia~]

I think Ayn Rand is trying to show that Dominique's quest for self-contempt was *more hopeless* than a typical pathetically self-contemptuous person's quest for self-respect (which might be, but, I would assume, is not necessarily always futile).

I think Dominique was displaying contempt for the world not herself - she only claimed that to Wynand but he saw through that.

[James Bond]

I just read Toohey's speech to Keating near the end of the book. Holy cow. I felt slightly ill at one point. Ugh.

This book keeps getting better and better.

[01503]

I just read Toohey's speech to Keating near the end of the book. Holy cow. I felt slightly ill at one point. Ugh.

This book keeps getting better and better.

Was one of my favorite parts. Not because it was good, but because it so accurately depicted men like Toohey.

Made me put the book down to chew it for a few minutes.