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What Are Your Views On The European Union?

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daniel
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I have a view to leaving the EU. That should answer the rest of your questions. ;)
Coming to the US?

Stirkes me that the EU is yet another example of bad feeding off the good. There are obvious advantages to trade that is freer across international boundaries than it otherwise would be. That strong kernel of the good is surrounded by leeches that want to take their toll.

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Coming to the US?

Hopefully, yes.

---

I just found this article:

Last weekend a gang that calls itself Les Flagadas, deflated the tyres of some forty SUVs in Brussels. [...]The Brussels police flatly refused to register the complaints of 4x4 owners “because the cars have not been damaged.”

[...]

In two instances in Belgium in 2003 company managers were taken hostage by trade union activists and kept locked up for several days while local authorities refused to intervene. Afterwards the Belgian authorities decided not to press charges against the hostage takers.

In France, Belgium, the Netherlands and other West European countries hamburger restaurants, mink farms and gas stations have been arsoned by eco-terrorists. Though in these cases there were prosecutions, some tend to sympathise with the arsonists “so long as no-one gets hurt.”

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The official moto of the EU is "United in Diversity" which was decided after an internal debate among the convention members.The original proposition was "Peace,Freedom,Unity",at least they came to the conclusion that the EU does not represent freedom.

Here it is anyway

http://europa.eu.int/constitution/futurum/...e1/index_en.htm

A nice little story of how it works!

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/eco/redcard.html

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My view of the EU at first was that it is a non-agression-pact and an economic opening, which I welcomed at first. Then the Euro came and we had lots of wonderful restrictions and funding. Did you know that with all the money we pump into agriculture (which is mainly in France) we could take every cow in the European Union and send it on a world tour by airplane? This is the first thing that needs to be cut. But nobody does it.

Why? Because:'We' 'need' agriculture. AAHHH!

Have you ever noticed that this 'We need'-part is a very powerful hypnotic pattern? It establishes some fake consensus, completely drops individualism, and puts need above everything else while dropping the context of where the money for fulfilling the need comes from. All that with two harmless words. I have to admit, this is quite brilliant. Nevertheless, I hate it!

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My view of the EU at first was that it is a non-agression-pact and an economic opening, which I welcomed at first. Then the Euro came and we had lots of wonderful restrictions and funding. Did you know that with all the money we pump into agriculture (which is mainly in France) we could take every cow in the European Union and send it on a world tour by airplane? This is the first thing that needs to be cut. But nobody does it.

Why? Because:'We' 'need' agriculture. AAHHH!

Have you ever noticed that this 'We need'-part is a very powerful hypnotic pattern? It establishes some fake consensus, completely drops individualism, and puts need above everything else while dropping the context of where the money for fulfilling the need comes from. All that with two harmless words. I have to admit, this is quite brilliant. Nevertheless, I hate it!

Yes, CAP costs each household $1,100 a year in taxes, each cow got $2.62 in 2003, we pay two times over the world price for lamb, 80% over the world price for sugar and 50% over the world price for corn. France and Germany are standing in the way of a much more open Europe.

Non-agression pact? That is not even required thanks to Nato and in fact the EU may lead to aggression not prevent it.

The official moto of the EU is "United in Diversity" which was decided after an internal debate among the convention members.The original proposition was "Peace,Freedom,Unity",at least they came to the conclusion that the EU does not represent freedom.

Here it is anyway

http://europa.eu.int/constitution/futurum/...e1/index_en.htm

A nice little story of how it works!

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/eco/redcard.html

Also the flag of the EU is based on the 12 Apostles - irrational to the root.

Edited by daniel
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So in other words, this bit of the [draft] treaty is a load of c(ap:

The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, liberty, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights. These values are common to the Member States in a society of pluralism, tolerance, justice, solidarity and non-discrimination.
That first bit seems to be quite far from the truth to me.

And this bit appears to be failing, as it would seem there is more harm than good being done:

1. The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.

I have always found it sad that people will accept pretty much anything as good if it is wrapped up in the lie of "common good", "need", and formal legal language.

This is another example of people forgetting/ignoring the values that would bring them the very thing they claim to want! Trying to substitue their means of productiveness with bloody collectivism under the assurance of "the public good".

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Also the flag of the EU is based on the 12 Apostles - irrational to the root.

Considering how secular the European population is, I am suspicious of that interpretation.

The EU could have been a positive force for fostering free trade and removing national borders, instead it is well on its way to becoming a fortefied retirement community.

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Considering how secular the European population is, I am suspicious of that interpretation.

The EU could have been a positive force for fostering free trade and removing national borders, instead it is well on its way to becoming a fortefied retirement community.

It is a historical fact that the EU flag is based on the 12 apostles. I never said the people of the EU are/were irrational. Rather I implied the EU was irrational, which is obvious given such polices as CAP.

Furthermore the EU (and the flag) was formed in the 1950s, a much more religious and so irrational period. On the issue of the people of the EU I would hardly call them rational - electing the corrupt Chiraq, reaction after Madrid bombings, the mess Germans have got themselves into with their recent election etc

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  • 3 weeks later...
It is a historical fact that the EU flag is based on the 12 apostles. I never said the people of the EU are/were irrational. Furthermore the EU (and the flag) was formed in the 1950s, a much more religious and so irrational period.

I am quite sure that the twelve stars were chosen for a perfectly rational reason - I am not a mathematician but apparently twelve is a lovely number, is an equal number, can be spilt all sorts of ways and when arranged in a circle looks good. But it is definitely true that after it was chosen, it was remarked upon by the people who chose it that it was a nice coincidence that it wa also symbolic of the twelve apostles.

For the EU - I used to be wildly in favour of it. But now I think I would like a more a thatcherite version of it, just a common market.

However, I do like having all the different languages in my passport and it is nice not having to wait at passport control.

(Edit: Fixed quotation tags - sNerd)

Edited by softwareNerd
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I actually don't mind the EU. Sure - there are a lot of downsides, but in the end, I think that the good outweighs the bad. Economically EU will be much stronger, than individual countries, and thus give them a chance at eventually being able to compete with China's or US's. Plus you no longer have to worry about crossing the borders. In a way it's like United States of Europe...

Also the flag of the EU is based on the 12 Apostles - irrational to the root.

It's not true. Just because it's 12 doesn't automatically make it related to 12 Apostles. Same goes for the number of hours in the day, or months in a year, or inches in a foot...

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Economically EU will be much stronger, than individual countries

Why?

and thus give them a chance at eventually being able to compete with China's or US's.

What keeps Europeans from being competitive is the statist policies of their governments (and more broadly, the bad philosophies that dominate their cultures). Other than the elimination of internal trade barriers, Brussels has done little to change that; on the contrary, there is now a centralized bureaucracy sitting on top of the national bureaucracies, introducing more and more statism.

In a way it's like United States of Europe...

What made the United States a great country--the idea that the government is there to uphold individual rights--is something most Europeans haven't even heard about. The prevalent view here is still that the government (or "society") is your superior by some "divine" right and can issue commands to you at whim.

I think that the good outweighs the bad.

Other than the things you mentioned (economy, passport-free travel), what do you think is good about the EU?

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What keeps Europeans from being competitive is the statist policies of their governments (and more broadly, the bad philosophies that dominate their cultures). Other than the elimination of internal trade barriers, Brussels has done little to change that; on the contrary, there is now a centralized bureaucracy sitting on top of the national bureaucracies, introducing more and more statism.

Don't get me wrong - I hate Europe's socialist tendencies, but I still believe Europe with EU, is better off than Europe without EU.

What made the United States a great country--the idea that the government is there to uphold individual rights--is something most Europeans haven't even heard about. The prevalent view here is still that the government (or "society") is your superior by some "divine" right and can issue commands to you at whim.

Yes, but the upholding of individual rights in the U.S. is not so black and white as it would seem. Just look at the recent Gay Marriage bans, or the War on Pornography. I'm actually glad there's still Europe, because webmasters of websites which are not up to the "American Taliban" standards, will have a safe-haven to move their server content to. Not to mention the Stem Cell research issues, or even legalizing drugs - you just can't beat Europe's prevalent secularism.

Other than the things you mentioned (economy, passport-free travel), what do you think is good about the EU?

Appart from the conveninence of the single currency those would be the only two, but IMO that's better than the alternative of not even having those.

Edited by Eternal
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Yes, but the upholding of individual rights in the U.S. is not so black and white as it would seem.

I never said individual rights are being fully upheld now. My point is that America was founded on individual rights and that made it a great country. Even if the U.S. were a full-blown dictatorship by now, that wouldn't change the fact that individual rights are an unknown concept in Europe and that's why Europe has no chance to become as great a place as America was at its founding.

I'm actually glad there's still Europe, because webmasters of websites which are not up to the "American Taliban" standards, will have a safe-haven to move their server content to.

What do you mean?

legalizing drugs - you just can't beat Europe's prevalent secularism.

The name for Europe's "secularism" is "a hedonism filling the vacuum of post-modern nihilism"--not the kind of secularism I want to have anything to do with.

And, while I hold that a grown-up wishing to destroy his mind with drugs should be free to do so, I would rather wait for drug legalization until the last remnant of the "free" health care system has been eliminated. To paraphrase A. Whitney Brown, I do not support drug legalization because I love drugs; I support drug legalization because I hate junkies.

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My point is that America was founded on individual rights and that made it a great country.

Wasn't slavery legal during that "foundation on individual" rights?

that wouldn't change the fact that individual rights are an unknown concept in Europe

I may be wrong on this one, but wasn't slavery abolished in Europe way before it was in the U.S.? (example of was) Also - the last time I checked, gay marriage was legalized in 3 countries in Europe, while the opposite's going on in the U.S. (example of now)

What do you mean?

What I mean is that our "moral" government just can't wait to tell you what you can and cannot watch on your TV/computer, through Obsenity Laws (read censorship).

The name for Europe's "secularism" is "a hedonism filling the vacuum of post-modern nihilism"--not the kind of secularism I want to have anything to do with.

It still beats the American Taliban...

To paraphrase A. Whitney Brown, I do not support drug legalization because I love drugs; I support drug legalization because I hate junkies.

I on the other hand support drug legalization, because I hate seeing my tax money being wasted on a worthless pursuit.

Again - I would never go back to Europe - I prefer to live in the U.S., that is the main reason I immigrated here. But when it comes to individual rights, Europe has always been one step ahead...

Edited by Eternal
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Wasn't slavery legal during that "foundation on individual" rights?

It was--and you're still missing my point.

I would never go back to Europe - I prefer to live in the U.S., that is the main reason I immigrated here.

Yes, there were quite a number of people in the 19th and 20th centuries who came to America from Europe because they "preferred to live in the U.S."

But when it comes to individual rights, Europe has always been one step ahead...

LOL, and I thought the reason so many Europeans came to America was because they wanted freedom. Turns out they just "preferred to live in the U.S." even if it meant their rights were not respected like they were in Europe. They must have been quite the fools, to give up their rights for some subjective "preference."

----

Here are the views on the EU of one lady from across the Atlantic that I respect:

“Europe” is the result of plans. It is, in fact, a classic utopian project, a monument to the vanity of intellec­tuals, a programme whose inevitable destiny is failure: only the scale of the final damage done is in doubt.
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LOL, and I thought the reason so many Europeans came to America was because they wanted freedom. Turns out they just "preferred to live in the U.S." even if it meant their rights were not respected like they were in Europe. They must have been quite the fools, to give up their rights for some subjective "preference."

I never contested that economic freedoms are greater in the U.S., than in Europe, so you may be the one missing my point.

The simplest analogy I can come up is that the U.S. = Republican Party, while Europe = Democratic Party. Republicans don't get the idea behind separation of church and state, while Democrats just can't understand separation of economy and state. I still vote Republican, because I don't mind censorship and legislature based on Christian mythology as much, as I mind people raising my taxes.

Edited by Eternal
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I never contested that economic freedoms are greater in the U.S., than in Europe, so you may be the one missing my point.

Political freedom is greater in America too. Just look at countries like Russia. Do you know that in many countries in Europe (like Austria), you can be arrested for denying the Holocaust? Or that hate crime legislation is used to reduce freedom of speech (e.g. Italy)? And that similar legislation is being enacted in UK?

Edited by tommyedison
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Or that hate crime legislation is used to reduce freedom of speech (e.g. Italy)? And that similar legislation is being enacted in UK?

A boy in the UK has recently been given a community service order (it means he has to help out at old people's homes or somehting like that as his sentence!) of eighty hours because he was wearing a t-shirt with "Jesus is a Cunt" written on it. (Just to let you know).

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Political freedom is greater in America too. Just look at countries like Russia. Do you know that in many countries in Europe (like Austria), you can be arrested for denying the Holocaust? Or that hate crime legislation is used to reduce freedom of speech (e.g. Italy)? And that similar legislation is being enacted in UK?
Indeed, in the case R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, a St. Paul ordinance which outlawed the expression of certain disfavored ideas was ruled unconstitutional, so even when the Politically Correct manage to pass a law that prohibits saying something unpopular, we have a constitutional guarantee that such a law cannot long survive. That's a protection which is lacking in many nations.
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I am quite sure that the twelve stars were chosen for a perfectly rational reason - I am not a mathematician but apparently twelve is a lovely number, is an equal number, can be spilt all sorts of ways and when arranged in a circle looks good. But it is definitely true that after it was chosen, it was remarked upon by the people who chose it that it was a nice coincidence that it wa also symbolic of the twelve apostles.

For the EU - I used to be wildly in favour of it. But now I think I would like a more a thatcherite version of it, just a common market.

However, I do like having all the different languages in my passport and it is nice not having to wait at passport control.

(Edit: Fixed quotation tags - sNerd)

You are wrong it is based on the 12 apostles. Please read John Redwood's book 'Just Say No'.

It's not true. Just because it's 12 doesn't automatically make it related to 12 Apostles. Same goes for the number of hours in the day, or months in a year, or inches in a foot...

It is true. As i suggested to the other poster read Redwood's 'Just Say No'. Yo make it sound as if I looked at the EU flag and saw 12 stars and than said it must be based on the 12 Apostles because of that. I never did. I know it's based on the 12 Apostles because it's a historical fact documented in a very succesful book by a well respected author.

I actually don't mind the EU. Sure - there are a lot of downsides, but in the end, I think that the good outweighs the bad. Economically EU will be much stronger, than individual countries, and thus give them a chance at eventually being able to compete with China's or US's. Plus you no longer have to worry about crossing the borders. In a way it's like United States of Europe...

People can cross borders because of the Schengen agreement, not the EU. For example the UK is not a member of the Schengen agreement, eventhough we are part of the EU, thus we must still show our passports when going abroad.

The EU is evil. It costs us billions of pounds, unelected pen pushers make 70% of our laws, the CAP costs each household £1,100 a year. Europe would be better off without it. Peace has been maintained by Nato not the EU.

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