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Riots In Paris

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Dalil Boubakeur, the head of the Paris mosque and the president of the French Council for the Muslim Religion, said Muslim immigrants in the suburbs "must be given the conditions to live with dignity as human beings", not in "disgraceful squats".

Maybe the almighty Allah could provide better housing and jobs!?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4404362.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4387086.stm

Edited by Triumph$
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I have read some fairly recent news about the riots in Paris via. Cox and Forkum and Gus Van Horn. I find it disgusting, but really, it was only to be expected. Maybe even the French will learn some sense now.

Yup. Part of the response is appropriate (Interior Minister of France saying,"We will wipe out these scum!") while the response of the media ("We haven't done enough to reach out to these people") is not.

Remember that France did go through that ban on religious insignia for its public school students, although I don't think infringment on clothing choice in public schools is really the way to handle extremism. However, as expected, it was, of all religious groups, the Muslims that complained the loudest. All Over The World! France did not give in and insisted that it is a secular society, a distinction I sure wish we would make in America!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4395934.stm

I think the French populace, as well as that of the Netherlands, is starting to understand the seriousness of the Muslim problem, perhaps better than Americans do, and they are seriously worried about the infiltration of their secular culture by these zealots. Several political figures have campaigned in these countries solely on this problem. Although they came under fire, a significant portion of the population gets it. Hopefully even more French will now realize that "reaching out" (aka giving up and giving in when force or the threat of force is used) is not the answer. But they might need more episodes of terrorism to actually get it. The threat of a nuclear Iran on their doorstep might spur them in the appropriate direction. Who knows?

triumph$, you're right, there's this constant pull in socialist countries to "do more." No surprise. they cannot make correlations, obviously.

Edited by Liriodendron Tulipifera
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However, as expected, it was, of all religious groups, the Muslims that complained the loudest.

Well, yeah -- because it was most strongly targeted at them all though every group had reason to complain.

All Over The World! France did not give in and insisted that it is a secular society, a distinction I sure wish we would make in America!!

I find it disappointing that a poster in an Objectivist forum would look positively on any State forcing their citizens to behave in a certain way, especially when it comes to their personal beliefs and not any action that might injure or harm somebody else.

Edited by Captain Nate
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Maybe even the French will learn some sense now.

Thanks for that Megan. After a very long stressful day I really needed a good laugh. That comment hit the spot.

Though Liriodendron Tulipifera is right in that maybe the French will join the Dutch in the realization that being pc can be dangerous. Though I think the Dutch are more likely to come to their senses. Considering the French have given shelter to some of the world's most vile dictators (Ayatolla Khomeni, etc) it really is a case of the chickens coming home to roost. Maybe it's despicable of me to say but it couldn't have happened to a more deserving nation.

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Just struck me that our forum has a few people from the UK and from Germany, but none that I know of from France. UK is understandable because Ayn Rand's books were in English; but, why such a difference in membership between Germany and France, I wonder.

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Considering the French have given shelter to some of the world's most vile dictators (Ayatolla Khomeni, etc) it really is a case of the chickens coming home to roost.

Wow, I didn't realize that. It will be interesting to see how their elections turn out this year. There seems to be a pretty big split there on how to handle these issues.

I wasn't suggesting that infringment of personal rights was the way to combat terrorism, as I stated previously. I'm just saying that it's nice that (I think it was Chirac?) came straight out and said, "We are a secular nation." so perhaps I should have removed that from the "they didn't give in" part of the sentence. My point was: can anyone imagine ANY US politician saying that America is a secular nation? George Bush? Certainly not. And certainly not the Clintons, Howard Dean, or John Kerry, who invented this "people of faith" bullcrap to try to remove votes from the Republicans. The only US politician I can think of that ever said anything similar was our first president, who said the USA was not in any way founded on the Christian religion. We have certainly regressed since that time!

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Tony Blankley has a good series in The Washington Times on the problems that underlie these riots. Here's the first of 3 parts:

http://washingtontimes.com/national/200509...22024-9420r.htm

This phenomenon of "Eurabia" is particularly disturbing. It's my understanding that Muslims make up nearly 10% of the French population. Blankley's perspective is interesting because he compares the radical Islamists in Europe to the Nazis.

Radical Islam, sometimes accurately called Islamo-fascism, has all the "advantages" the Nazis had in Germany in the 1930s. The Islamo-fascists find a Muslim population adrift, confused and humiliated by the dominance of foreign nations and cultures. They find a large, youthful population increasingly disdainful of their parents' passive habits.

Just as the Nazis reached back to German mythology and the supposed Aryan origins of the German people, the radical Islamists reach back to the founding ideas and myths of their religious culture. And just like the Nazis, they claim to speak for authentic traditions while actually advancing expedient and radical innovations......

In many ways, these radical Muslim fundamentalists are postmodern, not pre-modern. They are designing a distinctly Western, fascistic version of Islam that is less and less connected to the Islam of their Middle Eastern homeland.

Radical Western Islam brings the combative strength and deep faith of authentic traditions while constantly modifying itself to best attack liberal, secular European and American institutions.

The radical Islamists are able to rationalize concessions to modernity with ancient-sounding mumbo jumbo while still sounding like authentic fundamentalists, the only true voice of Islam.

The Nazis overwhelmed German society with these methods 70 years ago. There is building evidence that the radical Islamists are moving ever more successfully down the same path -- particularly within the younger generations in Europe and, to a lesser extent, in the United States.

Unfortunately, France and Western Europe are in many ways just as unprepared to combat this virulent ideology as the Weimar Republic was in the aftermath of WWI. From what I can see, the French lack the philosophical weapons necessary to win this battle. In fact, there are some "Ominous Parallels" between the intellectual atmosphere in 1920s Germany and the postmodern philosophic wasteland of France created by the likes of Derrida, Lyotard, Baudrillard and Foucalt. How do you fight the irrationalism of radical Islam when your leading thinkers write about the "death of the real", the growth of "hyperreality", and how there is a sort of unstable shifting back and forth between "privileged" and "marginalized" readings of the same text?

None of this bodes well for France or the rest of Europe.

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Just struck me that our forum has a few people from the UK and from Germany, but none that I know of from France. UK is understandable because Ayn Rand's books were in English; but, why such a difference in membership between Germany and France, I wonder.

France is home to some of the worst philosophers of the 20th century. As I understand it, they were responsible for "postmodernism". I only know of a single instance of somebody in France posting on various lists and boards that I've read over the years, that I can recall.

Also, historically, I think there's a lot of significance to the fact that ex-British colonies/influenced areas were highly successful. (Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, and of course America.) But what did the French leave behind? Vietnam, Cambodia, French Guiana, Haiti, ... Quebec, Louisiana, ... It would be very interesting philosophic detective work to find out the fundamental reasons why the results are so starkly different.

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...to find out the fundamental reasons why the results are so starkly different.
Sounds like a book idea there!

I wonder if the North Europe/South Europe and the Protestant/Catholic differences tie into this (I say this because we have multiple people from Germany). Also, because your mention of French colonies got me thinking of Spanish colonies. I wonder if Germany's colonization followed more of a British pattern.

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It used to be that Protestants were more intellectual than Catholics, now, between the continuing influence of Aquinas and the Pentecostal/Revival movement among Protestants, this no longer obtains. Protestant nations in Europe have largely become secular/areligious (France, England, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark), while the Catholic ones (Spain, Ireland, Italy, etc.) you hardly hear about; they are marginal nations.

Germany wasn't big on the colonies, IIRC . . . it was never much of a seagoing nation, being mostly landlocked. The only one I can remember off the top of my head is Tunisia, where all the fighting went on during WWII. I know Germany owned a few islands that were taken away as "reparations" for WWI, but I can't remember what they were. Didn't they have like 1/2 of Samoa?

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Protestant nations in Europe have largely become secular/areligious (France, England, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark), while the Catholic ones (Spain, Ireland, Italy, etc.) you hardly hear about; they are marginal nations.

Meagan, France has never been a Protestant country. The Protestant "Hugenots" were never more than 10% of the population, if I remember correctly. The secularization of France really began at the time of the Revolution (1790) and was continued by Napoleon. Also, I'd suggest that religion is not the main factor in why you "hardly hear about" those nations. They are marginal nations in terms of European geography, have smaller populations and less commerce and are less critical of US policies. The mainstream media loves stories about France and Germany criticizing the US for any reason.

Edited by Regis
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Meagan, France has never been a Protestant country. The Protestant "Hugenots" were never more than 10% of the population, if I remember correctly. The secularization of France really began at the time of the Revolution (1790) and was continued by Napoleon. Also, I'd suggest that religion is not the main factor in why you "hardly hear about" those nations. They are marginal nations in terms of European geography, have smaller populations and less commerce and are less critical of US policies. The mainstream media loves stories about France and Germany criticizing the US for any reason.

I have to agree with Megan on this one. I think a safe rule of thumb is the more Catholic a country is the poorer they are. And that is not just the former Orangemen in me speaking. The best example is Central America. They inherited Catholicism from the Italians and ran with it. Just like the Russians inherited Marx from Germany. True, France has been a historically Catholic country. That is similar to places like Pakistan or Egypt that have traditionally been Moslem. They are very secular nations but still have the old ways deeply ingraned.

I agree with you about the reason we don't hear about Benelux or Norwegian policy is the fact they are for the most part pretty quiet. That is compared to places like France and Germany. But then France has (for lack of a less pun riddled comparison) the Napoleon complex and Germany is trying to feel their political chops. France has to pretend to be important or make it seem that their continued existance matters to the universe. Germany recovered from the anti-Nazi pogroms of the 60's and 70's and the cold war of 40 years to emerge as, in spite of inane economic policies internally, a "major" player in the EU.

Plus, let us all remember that France is not only a Catholic country, but thanks to Moorish invasion, heavliy steeped and influenced by Islam going back many a century. Though thanks to Moslem oppression in France, we did get the croisant. (hint: it was a political protest against the crescent moon in Moslem flags) So add that to Jacque Peppin (sp) something good actually has come from France's existance.

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I thought Spain colonized Central America. Unless Italians are from Spain all the sudden.

Look everyone! History by committee! Correct by averages!

(I was wrong about the France thing but I don't bother to look things up . . . it's actually more informative that way because I get to find out where what I remember is wrong, and throw it out, which I don't do if I look it up first, because then I don't go digging through my memory for what I remember. History is too big for me to recall any useful proportion of it, but I can at least try and make sure that the bits I do recall are correct.)

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I thought Spain colonized Central America. Unless Italians are from Spain all the sudden.

Yes, Spain did indeed colonize Central America. However, the point I was tyring to make was that Catholicism was an Italian religion tried and true. While Spaniards are indeed Catholic, the Italians have a corner on the market when it comes to being Catholic. As much as the Belgians have chocolate and the British have cheese and the English language.

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If you're interested, here are links to the final two parts of Tony Blankley's series on the war against radical Islam.

He says some good stuff, but I can't agree with all of his proposed methods of fighting the war.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050913-121424-2655r.htm

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20...15221-4519r.htm

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I haven't heard anything about that CF, thanks. It's remarkable the way the media are so shy about mentioning the involvement of radical Islamists in this violence.

This is all particularly disturbing because of what I see as Europe's inability and unwillingness to respond to this threat.

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It would appear that the liberals, leftists and anti-war crowd was right all along. Every since 9/11, they have been warning that military retaliation by the U.S. against Islamic terrorism would cause the "Arab street" to explode. Well, it has. In France.

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Remember that France did go through that ban on religious insignia for its public school students, although I don't think infringment on clothing choice in public schools is really the way to handle extremism. [...] France did not give in and insisted that it is a secular society, a distinction I sure wish we would make in America!!

Three points I would like to offer about the words I have put in bold:

1. My memory of news reports tells me that the ban was on "conscpicuous" symbols of religion, not all symbols: Ban head scarves, but allow tiny crosses or Stars of David, for example. The rationale was that the teacher standing in front of a large class should not be able to classify students at a glance and thus subject them to discrimination. However, as usual, the reports I read were vague, but perhaps that is because the law that was passed was vague too. I offer this only as a heads-up for anyone who might be planning to debate the issue of secularity and draw on French experience.

2. What do you mean by "extremism"? Ayn Rand identified the term/idea as an anti-concept. (For anyone new to the idea of an anti-concept, see "Anti-Concepts," The Ayn Rand Lexicon, pp. 23-24 for other examples of anti-concepts.)

3. I too have heard French officials boast of their secular government/nation. But I would be cautious about accepting that claim. For example, I believe I have seen news reports that say that one strategy the French government has planned to use to combat Muslim fundamentalists is to finance -- with tax money -- "moderate" Muslim intellectuals in their own mosques. As another example, I would want to know what tax money, if any, or special benefits religious institutions receive in France. In Germany, according to my shaky memory of news reports, the government finances the physical upkeep of some church buildings -- following the rationalization that they have "historic value."

So, in summary, if I were investigating this further, I would question any French government claims to being secular.

Edited by BurgessLau
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Maybe even the French will learn some sense now.

I expect things to get much, much worse in the coming years, all over Europe. The population of Europe is ageing and declining, with more and more people living of the state, and fewer and fewer natives to support them. The productive capacity has been shifting to the migrant population, who, due to multiculturalism, haven’t been integrated into the society at all. There is no way to reverse the trend, short of Europeans giving up the welfare state, or Muslims giving up their religion – not gonna happen.

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The only US politician I can think of that ever said anything similar was our first president, who said the USA was not in any way founded on the Christian religion. We have certainly regressed since that time!

Not to nitpick or anything, but that was a quote from the Treaty of Tripoli, written by Joel Barlow and signed into law by John Adams. :lol:

At any rate, I hate to say it, but...this is poetic justice at its most poignant. After all France has done to appease Islamic terrorists, is it any surprise that they're about to be overthrown by these crazies? While it may be farfetched, it isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility that this could start a much larger conflict in which the French government ends up being overthrown. If that ever happens...we've bailed them out enough in the last century, and I say we just let them live under a Caliphate for a few years just to teach them the meaning of humility, then bail them out in exchange for certain favors.

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