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What kind of music do you enjoy?

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AshRyan
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... despite the strong anti-corporate feeling throughout the thing.
I disagree.

Look at what the music is actually against or "anti."

1) Have a Cigar

Is that song anti corporate?

You gotta get an album out,

You owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.

You owe it to the people? Sounds like Mouch or James Taggart. THAT is what Pink Floyd is against.

He is indicating by the music manager's insincerity (Well I've always had a deep respect, and I mean that most sincerely.

The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think.

Oh by the way, which one's Pink?) and by his "produce for society" words that the music manager is riding the gravy train or profiting from the band's talent without actually putting in anything part.

Sort of like the scenes in Atlas where the looters demand a product without understanding how it is made or what is necessary to MAKE it.

I don't think Pink Floyd is against music as a product. They are against music production from those who don't know how to produce.

Why would this suprise you or why would you be against that?

I manage a band and I am friends a Fresno band called Camera. Their demo was produced by Adema's front man Mark Chavez who was on the Arista label until the CEO Antonio L.A Reid got fired from Arista. Arista did squat for promotion and did squat for backing an album (which is why a lot of artists get dropped). They also are signing crap bands...and even with bands that are sucessful...they haven't been able to prevent themselves from going millions of dollars into the hole.

Labels can really screw over artists BIG time and fail to uphold their end of the deal.

I think it is understandable (as someone involved directly in the business) to be against those who undermine your productive attempts and leech of from you instead of promoting a healthy artist-label symbiot.

2) Welcome to the machine

This song comes before "Have a cigar" which I think is for a reason. I think this song is about how weak people (such as those who are typical in their anti-intellectualism and rebelliousness) can be easily controlled into what dreams/aspirations they have.

Dreams of "the steak bar" without the intellectual merit, self discipline, or character to back them up.

In short...a typical Gen X mentality.

This leads right in to the process of exploitation.

Maybe some people lend themselves to exploitation? Maybe they want to be exploited? I think the amount of willing hosts gives the parasites a sense of self legitamacy. In that capacity...they think they can get away with exploiting bands with talent...like Pink Floyd (which is where the anti-music business element comes in on "have a cigar).

3) Wish you were here

If you disect this song:

So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,

blue skies from pain.

Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?

A smile from a veil?

Do you think you can tell?

I think this is a question for people....can you tell that A is A and not B?

If you CAN tell objective value...or objective identity...

And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?

Hot ashes for trees?

Hot air for a cool breeze?

Cold comfort for change?

Did they get you to compromise?

And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?

A walk on part in the war = Howard Roark/ Henry Cameron

A lead role in a cage = Peter Keating

How I wish, how I wish you were here.

We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year,

Running over the same old ground.

What have we found? The same old fears.

Wish you were here.

This gives a sense of futility that comes by playing by the system's rules. Kind of like Dagny/Rearden playing by the rules of the looters.

What is really gained from dealing on their terms?

There is always a feeling of, "there is something that we are missing."

Who do they wish for? Jon Galt. I just don't think that Pink Floyd identifies this...but I kind of think that is what is intended.

Most important to this picture:

4) Shine on you crazy diamond and part 2

This song preludes the album and seems to encourage somone with inner worth (diamonds) to shine (or reach full self actualization).

Maybe chronologically speaking....this is addressed to a child or Pink Floyd as a child?

This child is a prisoner (as declared at the end of the song).

After all of the other trials, turmoils, etc....

Part two seems to be addressing an adult...someone who is not between being a child and a star.

However...the adult still needs guidance in comparison to the enlightened and is encouraged to shine...despite the obstacles that had previously been in the way.

I think of Dagny Taggart....a winner in the sense that she had made herself...a loser in the fact that she played by the system's rules instead of shrugging (she lost productivity to the looters).

A miner (a producer like Rearden) for truth (objective value) and delusion (at the same time...her production was feeding the anti-lifers/exploiters who couldn't recognize objective value, so their code was opposite of hers...hence the "delusion" which might seem to be a contradiction.

So what does it mean to shine?

What is Pink getting at when he exclaims at the end of the album,

"Come on and shine?"

I think it means...reach your full potential and SHRUG.

That could just be the way I read this album....maybe that is selective interpretation.

I would like some discussion on this though.

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Danny Elfman is awesome.

I enjoy Elfman's music too. However, for me, when it comes to movie soundtracks there is no one like Hanz Zimmer. I have listened to the soudtrack from Gladiator at least once every week for the last three years. To this day I am bitter that he didn't get the Academy Award for best soudtrack (Crouching Tiger won it and IMO its music was nowhere near as good).

Zimmer has also done the soundtrack for The Rock and Crimson Tide. He has the ability to take the emotions associated with heroic vulnerability and great moral conviction and translate them into music better than anyone I've heard. I can't say enough about his music.

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Tryp, yes you are right. The mistake is mine. I suppose I haven't analysed Wish You Were Here to the same extent that I have analysed The Wall and The Dark Side of the Moon.

The fact that plenty of anti-capitalist mobs use Wish You Were Here as their anthem shouldn't have stopped me from really LISTENING to the album.

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I actually haven't had the money or time to buy the album and listen to it all.

My dad once had The Wall hanging around the house and I picked up some songs like "Hey you" for instance.

I have seen the movie, though because I worked at Hollywood video for a summer.

:)

Free rentals, he he

The movie is really interesting.....really really dark art...but art nonetheless.

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...When was the last rapper you saw with ANY instrument?

That would have been MC Divinity, doing some excellent stuff on her bass, at a Victor Wooten concert a couple of months ago.

Count Bass D is another one. The instrumentation on his first few albums was all live, from what I understand (although I don't have them all, so I'm not sure). He has also worked with some renowned musicians, such as bassist Victor Wooten.

Those, by the way, are probably the only two hip-hop artists or "rappers" I can really stand, and most rap fans have probably never heard of either of them. And I must say that anyone who looks up to Eminem or finds his work "inspiring" is looking either in or from the wrong place for inspiration.

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I enjoy Elfman's music too. However, for me, when it comes to movie soundtracks there is no one like Hanz Zimmer. I have listened to the soudtrack from Gladiator at least once every week for the last three years. To this day I am bitter that he didn't get the Academy Award for best soudtrack (Crouching Tiger won it and IMO its music was nowhere near as good).

I find Zimmer to be a mixed bag, but yes, his score for Gladiator is incredible. I did like the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon score as well, though, and was not terribly disappointed when it won. I think both were worthy nominees, and I have both albums. (Yo-Yo Ma is a really great cellist, btw.)

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I know I'm late but I'm new here. :D

I am avid collector of music and it's always hard to answer questions like this so I'm just going to throw my favorites out there in no particular order:

Gentle Giant (probably my overall favorite)

National Health Orchestra (terrible name for a band but luckily they mostly play instrumentals)

Return to Forever (fusion at it's best)

Mahavishnu Orchestra

10cc

Pretty much any 80's new wave and pop

Buddy Guy (going on 50 years of blues now I think)

DEVO

Stereolab

Dream Theater (intellimetal)

Ben Fold's Five ("Philosophy" makes me cry j/k)

Joan Armatrading (a brilliant song writer)

Esquivel (out of this world!)

Frank Zappa (genius)

G. Love and Special Sauce

Iron Maiden

King's X

Mike Oldfield ("Ommadawn" and "Hergest Ridge" are absolutely AMAZING)

They Might Be Giants

Van Halen (1984 is probably the best guitar rock album ever)

Charles Mingus (best in the Dolphy days)

Coltrane + Davis (wth 'Trane early is good late is awful)

John Scofield

Raymond Scott (a true visionary)

Duke Ellington

Mendelssohn

Schubert

Chopin

Mozart (of course)

Rachmaninov (of course)

My taste is very broad so suggestions along these lines would be much appreciated!

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Sorry, but Em doesn't really have much in the way of personal values.

1) A song about slitting his girlfriend's throat and dumping her in a lake in front of his daughter. Is that the value you are referring too?

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eminem/97bonnieandclyde.html

2)  Another song...this time about the mentally insane raping his little sister, sodomizing his cousin, slitting his mom's throat, and advocating violence against cops/everyone else.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eminem/amityville.html

3) Robbery. What an Objectivist value *sarcasm.*

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eminem/murdermurder.html

Need I continue?

Eminem's lyrics are crap.

I think you're misinterpreting Eminem. (Just as context, I love Lose Yourself and 8 Mile Road, and I have never been a fan of rap.) Eminem is one of few rappers who does actually use music in his songs, and that’s part of why I like him. The rhythm is also great, and he’s funny as hell, as evidenced in part by the songs above, if you read the lyrics carefully, and all the way through. I haven’t heard these songs, but just from the words, I was laughing out loud.

Song number one is dripping with irony. Song number two has a section at the end that criticizes the justice system in Detroit for being too lax, which he is illustrating with the preceding horrific events. “That's why we don't call it Detroit, we call it Amityville . . . Cause once i snap i cant be held accountable for my actions” Song number 3, again, has an important ending, and this time, it’s all in the very last line.

Nowhere do I see evidence that Eminem seriously values such things as robbery, murder, or rape—in fact, I see evidence all over the place that it’s just the opposite. He laughs at horrific things because he doesn’t take them seriously—and he’s probably encountered a lot of people who do, or at least act like they do. In part, he’s making fun of all the rappers who routinely sing about raping and slapping around their “bitches” and the like.

I think it’s pretty clear, even from these three examples of lyrics, that Eminem values personal responsibility for your actions—and sees a lack of it all around him.

I think part of the reason he chose to illustrate his ideas this way is to get the backs up of all the PC bleeding-hearts out there who he knew would miss the joke entirely and be freaked out. And boy did he succeed in that.

He may have a streak of nihilism in him in that respect, but in the culture we live in, I can definitely forgive him that in exchange for the laughter and the inspiration (yes, inspiration) of Lose Yourself.

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That was well put Rachael.

I didn't reply to Trypto's post, cause I saw no point in wanting to defend Eminem or my tastes to him. I doubt he's gonna be convinced about Eminem. But does that matter? No. I still love some of eminem's numbers and always will.

dinesh.

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Song number one is dripping with irony.
Please specify what you find ironic about this?

The fact that Eminem actually had severe marital problems with Kim Mathers and in fact pulled an unloaded gun on her and the guy she was cheating on him with (and pistol whipped the guy)?

The fact that his daughter is named Haley and he references her in the song (hai hai)?

The fact that he compares he and his daughter to a muderous duo (Bonnie and Clyde) when he has been to jail before and perpetually sings about violent actions?

Song number two has a section at the end that criticizes the justice system in Detroit for being too lax, which he is illustrating with the preceding horrific events. “That's why we don't call it Detroit, we call it Amityville . . . Cause once i snap i cant be held accountable for my actions”

1) Even if I grant you this...what does this say about his sense of life?

2) your interpretation is simply WRONG.

Take the part you half quote in bold:

Did I just hear somebody say they wanna challenge me here?? (huh?)

While I'm holdin a pistol with this many calibres here?? (here??)

Got some registration and just made this shit valid this year? (year?)

Cause once i snap i cant be held accountable for my actions

He is putting himself in the role of a crazy person as if he was addressing an unnamed smack talker.

Translation: You wanna talk crap when I'm holding a gun that I just legally purchased and registered...because once I go off....I can't be held accountable for what I do.

It is like a street warning...similar to someone saying, "Are you sure you want to screw with me? Cause once I get angry, you can't say I didn't warn you...and thus..you have to hold YOURSELf accountable for provoking my uncontrolable violent behavior."

Earlier in the song, he compares Detroit to a mental hospital in the fact that it has a crazy mentality.

I think you are finding what you want to find when you try to intepret Amityville as a critique of the justice system.

Consider

1) Dr. Dre.

He is a hell of a guy right?

Do you want to tell me that HE is joking or being ironic when he sings about violence and screwing his bitches.

He signed the rapper you are defending. His history involves Compton, Suge Knight (a notorious crip gangster), Snoop Dogg (who was also charged with murder), and Tupac (who was killed).

2) Who has Eminem signed? 50 cent. A thug who has been shot 9 times and also has mysoginistic lyrics.

Are we seeing a pattern here?

Birds of a feather flock together.

Either Eminem is a massive poser by his cozy relationship with both 50, Dre, Snoop (a massive drug addict/criminal)...or else he actually doesn't have a moral or ethical problem by hanging around mysoginistic rappers with violent histories.

Pick which bullet you want to bite.

Nowhere do I see evidence that Eminem seriously values such things as robbery, murder, or rape
It's only his lyrics, right?

in fact, I see evidence all over the place that it’s just the opposite. In part, he’s making fun of all the rappers who routinely sing about raping and slapping around their “bitches” and the like.

Feel free to warrant your assertions at any point during the course of this debate.

He laughs at horrific things because he doesn’t take them seriously
You can support this with some evidence if you wish or you can leave this as your own warrantless opinion.

I think part of the reason he chose to illustrate his ideas this way is to get the backs up of all the PC bleeding-hearts out there who he knew would miss the joke entirely and be freaked out. And boy did he succeed in that.

Even if he is joking...that still doesn't make him musical the majority of the time.

So he can provoke controversy? So can Ozzy and Alice Cooper.

What does it say about his sense of life that he concerns himself with others to such a degree that he makes it a career to do nothing but either piss them off or at best, make crappy music that could EASILY be interpreted as being quite negative in nature?

Eminem is one of few rappers who does actually use music in his songs, and that’s part of why I like him.

If by music you mean the simplistic 10or so piano notes at the beginning of "Loose Yourself" then sure..I guess that makes his engineers, producers, etc musical.

When was the last time you saw Em pick up an instrument and play it live? Never.

Em's songs are simplistic in nature...and the rhythm is catchy and poppy. So are Burger King commericals.

I don't try to claim that the former is "music" and the other trash. I hold them both to the same standard.

In fact, I actually have more respect for the Burger King commercial producers, because THEY are the ones that actually are making the music. Not a bad rapper hiding behind thousands of dollars of technology, a posse, and a buttload of engineers.

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Snoop (a massive drug addict/criminal)
Actually, last I heard, he had quit smoking weed. Maybe that's why, after a dozen or so years, he actually came out with a good CD again...

I like Snoop Dogg. Sure, his lyrics leave something to be desired sometimes, but they're often leaps and bounds above other rappers. Actually, re: his criminality, you might find the lyrics to one of the tracks from "Paid Tha Cost To Be Da Boss" interesting... it's about making money honestly. ;)

(from lyricstime.com)

Thinkin of a master plan

Cause ain't nuttin but sweat inside my hand

So I dig into my pockets, all my money is spent

So I dig deeper, but still comin up with lint

So I, start my mission, leave my residence

Thinkin how can I get some dead presidents

I need money, I used to see a stick-up kid

So I think of all the devious things I did

I used to roll up, this is a hold up, ain't nuttin funny

Stop smilin, cause still don't nuttin move but the money

Cause now I've learned to earn cause I'm righteous

I feel great, so maybe I might just

Search fo' a 9 to 5, if I strive

Then maybe I'll stay alive

So I walk up the street, whistlin this

Feelin out of place cause man do I miss

A pen and a paper, a stereo, a tape of

Me and Warren G, and a big fat plate of

Chicken wings, cause that's my favorite thang

But without no money man that shit's a dream

Cause I don't like to dream about gettin paid

So I dig into the books of the rhymes that I've made

Soon as I bust 'em see if I got pull

I hit the DoggHouse, cause I'm paid in full.

Ok, so it's no Shakespeare, but still pretty cool for an O.G. :D

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Actually, last I heard, he had quit smoking weed.
Mmmm hmmm. So he could coach his son's little football team. After being the High Times man of the year like a bajillion years in a row, being in porn (he raps while two people bang in the background..giving a sort of commentary. He also has his own Girls Gone Wild video), and generally singing about stuff I wouldn't want my kid (pending that I had one) to come near if I had made it......he drops a lifelong addiction with no rehab whatsoever.

Did he quit? Maybe...maybe not. Still doesn't say much about his character for the last 20 years.

Maybe that's why, after a dozen or so years, he actually came out with a good CD again...

*grins.*

Or maybe it is because:

Album Personnel includes: Snoop Dogg, Pharrell, Latoiya Williams, Jay-Z, Soopafly, Nate Dogg, The Dramatics, Lil' Half Dead, Uncle Charlie Wilson, Mr. Kane, Traci Nelson, Goldie Loc, E-White, Redman, Warren G, Lady Of Rage, Ludacris, RBX.

Producers include: E-Swift, Jelly Roll, The Neptunes, Just Blaze, LT Hutton.

Ok, so it's no Shakespeare, but still pretty cool for an O.G.

He he.

I always have liked the velvety quality about Snoop's voice. It is very very magnetic.

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One rapper that I have enjoyed listening to from time to time is J-Live. I especially like the song Epilogue:

'What does it take'

'to be a great'

'MC'

If you ask me, it's much more than Master of Ceremonies

Because a lot of Masquerading Cornballs

Don't realize it also means Mad Creativity

In this day and age of mediocrity

There's two types of rappers that you'll recognize and hear

But I prefer the ones with the lyrics of the year

Than the gimmick with the gear and the right puppeteer

Now you can be the next rock M Shakespear

you're still 10 steps away from having a career

You step up the plate to earn respect from your peers

And end up on deck for the remainder of your years

I suppose this means greatness takes blood, sweat, and tears

It also takes an industry that doesn't breed fear

Or pumping all this mindless crap up in your ears

And limiting in the contrast what you get to hear

You got to recognize it's a determined idea

A righteous young mind is a devil's worst fear

But when you wanna give the people peace and satisfaction

Everybody's mama wants a piece of the action

So now I fall victim to supply and demand

Immaculate conceptions, born illegitimate

Destined to be the greatest story ever missed

Which means its meant to be for whoever's hearing this

[Chorus 2x]

When it's all said and done it should be heard and seen

'Til this cold-hearted game forces us to change teams

While the lust for the loot spreads out like gangrene

So the haves chase their tails while the nots chase their dreams

As the years chase the days, past the futures, meet fate

Like your firstborn, waiting for pop's release date

Postpone, meanwhile, I accumulate means

To revise and renew what was just heard and seen

It's been stated that I rhyme like God and I build like a poet

One hand washed the other like Lady Macbeth

Flip styles like Bela Karolyi

Warm hearted, cold blooded

I write like opposite left

I left opposites right what they left off

My rights left right-wing as left to right beside me

Left my right hand man 'cause he left what's right

And I reserve the right to write 'til I'm free

'Cause I free styles with my pen,

That ya'll couldn't if you freestyled all day long

Literally, this literature designed for one orator

Stays on the head

Emcee's emcee, that I be the emcee's emcee

'Cause I am saying what I am thinking

Except when my mind's blinking

My eyes open even when my eyes' drinking

I's a socializer, but more so with those wiser

Ask yourself why's a music so misused it's self contained

And not self sustained

I myself contemplate this 'til I make myself complain

Shall my raps stay maintained, wrapped in cellophane

'Til they're unwrapped by human consumers?

Emphatically no, so I rap wherever I go

And let it grow up in your brain like a tumor

[Chorus 2x]

Aiiyo, ya think ya really know me well

There's more to me than ya mind got room for

And much much more than a clever verse or two

That's all you know about me, you ain't even knowing that

You think I give a fuck whether or not my record sells?

You're damn right but you see that ain't the way I'm keeping score

If one million people said it does that make it true

You judge my music by whether or not my pocket's fat?

Well, fuck you

When the cash cow you're milking

It ain't yours but the job pays well, don't it?

And if you're lucky you can even get to taste a drop

We'll see who's happy when you're old but you're not grown

You see me? Now, yeah, you'll see me later too

Fucking you up when the vantage point change, don't it?

I know what's hip, but you determine if it's hop or pop

You're just a man without a voice, pass the microphone

I know the diff between written rhymes and freestyles

You see, for me, it's like having sex or making love

And you should know by now I'm married to the pad and pen

But I'm entitled to cheat on her every now and then

Will your children know the hip hop history?

Will the songs you hate be shrouded in mystery?

Don't step to me with your stats and your date smarts

You know your neighborhood by street signs or landmarks?

I'm not talking 'bout the first record ever made

I'm talking 'bout the first one that ever made you

The first records that I played never played me

And I can still play 'em today 'cause they stay true

You know this time I'm only speaking on the timeless

It makes sense now and then, yeah, now and then

'Cause now it's making picture perfect sense and then

It's making picture perfect sense like it did now

-------------------------------------

OK, some parts of that I don't exactly agree with, but overall, it is an extremely uplifting song.

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Tryptonique: You ignored several of the points I made, and acted like I provided no evidence for my claims, when I stated outright that the evidence is in the lyrics. Did you read them? Have you listened to Eminem? Your post was a giant rant, bad grammar flying everywhere. I don’t have the time nor the desire to pick it apart piece by piece.

I think that if you read both my post and the Eminem lyrics carefully, you’ll find that I have already answered your points. And wherever I didn’t, it’s because you’re acting as though I said something I didn’t. (Just as one example, I did not suggest that Eminem has played an instrument live. But I don’t believe that that automatically makes his music bad—which you seem to take for granted.)

I have zero interest in what Eminem’s life is like, just as I have zero interest in what Mick Jagger’s life is like. It’s not relevant to his art. I’m judging the art and the ideas the art portrays, not his life. It seems to me, though, that you’re just interested in taking Eminem down a notch for his actions in life, rather than really listening to the music.

Dinesh: Thanks. I hear Eminem bashed so, so often, usually in the same hasty manner, that I have to speak up when I see it, just in the name of justice. Besides, you were flailing around by your little old self being attacked by about three people, so someone had to step in and help you.

:P

I, too, though, am not particularly interested in changing minds, particularly about Eminem. I have too much important stuff to do.

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Tryptonique: You ignored several of the points I made, and acted like I provided no evidence for my claims, when I stated outright that the evidence is in the lyrics. Did you read them?
I posted the lyrics in the first place. Yes I read them. You didn't really provide much in the way of evidence except for say "look at the lyrics."

That is like making a critique of religion and having them say, "Look at the Bible...its all in there!."

You want to talk about hasty, sheesh :P .

You claim that a literary/poetic/dramatic tool (Irony) is used in the lyrics...yet we are supposed to deduce where this tool is located magically out of thin air. You made the claim, YOU back it up. I'm not saying that you might not even be right....but you are going to have to prove it if you wish to engage in any sort of rational debate. Earlier on in this very thread I defend Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here album when Concerto of Atlantis indicts them for being "anti-capitalist" in nature. Hop over to page 7 of this VERY thread to see how you can (and should) defend an artist that you think is being misinterpreted. Instead of making the clalim that I'm wrong and just letting that supposedly stand for itself when I provide counter analysis that goes largely unrefuted, you might try addressing a point or two.

Just a tip.

And wherever I didn’t, it’s because you’re acting as though I said something I didn’t. (Just as one example, I did not suggest that Eminem has played an instrument live.

Well...he certainly doesn't play one in the studio. So if he doesn't play an instrument in the studio and he doesn't play one live, where are we supposed to evaluate his musical ability?

If you wish to evaluate his vocal ability (which IS part of the entire musical package) I will grant you that Eminem might be able to sing.

Yes, I have listened to Eminem. If you listen to "Hailey's Song" on The Marshall Mather's LP, he sings for the whole song....well maybe. Hard to tell nowadays with all these producers, engineers, and sound guys.

When Eminem goes on live tours (just like 50 cent) he brings a decent sized posse up on stage with him for his songs.

Do I think he probably busts out one song of talent in his show? Statistically the odds are against him, because most of his songs follow the basic rap game of beatbox, sample, and monotonous rhyme.

Unlike you, I actually have listened to Eminem material. I remember going to school on the 8th grade school bus and having this kid named Tim play a song for me (cause I was curious). The song? "Just don't give a fuck."

Over the course of me keeping an eye on mainstream radio and media (I do want to become a music industry attorney and I already manage a band) , going to prom/other youth events, and having a roomate with The Marshall Mathers LP (which I burned, just for the sake of reviewing) , I became aquainted with Eminem.

More so than yourself, apparently.

But I don’t believe that that automatically makes his music bad—which you seem to take for granted.)
What music of his are you referring too? That which was canned in a studio by producers and is never replicated live?

I have zero interest in what Eminem’s life is like, just as I have zero interest in what Mick Jagger’s life is like. It’s not relevant to his art.

1) You have the burden of proving that he is making art, first off. You seem to be ditching that burden of proof, which is your perrogative of course.

2) It is quite relevant to what Eminem does as he references MANY personal things in this so called "art" of his.

Examples: Take the song "Cleanin' out my closet". That song references his dead beat dad, his wife Kim, his mom's drug problem, and some family problem involving a dude named Ronnie.

Or take the song "97 Bonnie and clyde" (I already posted lyrics, I'm not posting them again) which references his daughter by NAME (Hai Hai) and her mother (Kim).

Another example would be the song called "Kim" (I wonder what that could be about?) http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eminem/kim.html

A positive example would of course be "Haile's song" (which references his daughter, Hailey).

Those are just a few examples off from the top of my head. Another one would be "My Dad's gone crazy" where Haliey's voice is actually used.

Lets see what MTV has to say about Eminem, shall we?

http://www.mtv.com/bands/az/eminem/313868/album.jhtml

Despite the abundance of introspection, Eminem doesn't back up a single step on any of the themes that made him such a hot property. He's still into glorifying violence, as on "Soldier" one of the many cuts where he waves his broken-home/dysfunctional upbringing like a flag to justify the hatred that seeps from every pore of THE EMINEM SHOW.

Over the course of the album, he threatens to brutally murder so many members of his family that one begins to lose track, but this is just the kind of hard-ass image that's helped make him an icon. The aforementioned cut finds the former Marshall Mathers making one of his most telling statements; "I'll never be Marshall again." It's clear that the Eminem identity allows him to fully vent his rage and get lauded (by some) for it instead of imprisoned. In his continuing effort to show that he's as hardcore as any black rapper, he extends his rancor Professor Griff-stye to Jews on the skits "Paul Rosenberg" and "Steve Berman," the latter of whom we hear getting shot for whiningly taking Em's music to task. Love him or hate him, Eminem makes no apologies, and THE EMINEM SHOW is as strong a statement as he's made to date.

And you say I'm making the hasty generalizations? Unless you want to claim that MTV doesn't really know what it is talking about when it comes to Emimem, I think that speaks volumes. After all, they only have him on TRL so much he even raps about it in the song White America ( "I go to TRL, look how many hugs I get.") and in Without Me ("They tried to shut me down on MTV).

Speaking of without me....in the video he dresses up like Bin Laden and dances around with his rap posse.

Real cute huh? Is this the art you are talking about?

Since you seem to credit him with producing music (even though he has quite a few people producing music for him) maybe you will credit him (instead of the video director) for making that joke with such poor taste.

Thanks. I hear Eminem bashed so, so often, usually in the same hasty manner, that I have to speak up when I see it, just in the name of justice.
*giggles.*

Your post was a giant rant, bad grammar flying everywhere. I don’t have the time nor the desire to pick it apart piece by piece.

Then quit while you are behind.

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Rachael: Thanks for coming to the rescure :P I usually get a lot of flack for liking rap, but i don't give a damn.

In college, I usually am "flailing by myself" for my philosophical views, and out here it's rap :D So i'm quite used to opposition. It doesn't matter. I don't care what MTV (lol !!!!) or Trypto thinks of Eminem or GNR or any goddamned band. If someone agrees with me, I can enjoy the music with them, if they don't, well they can go and find their own radio.

dinesh.

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