What kind of music do you enjoy?

[Tryptonique]

In college, I usually am "flailing by myself" for my philosophical views, and out here it's rap

I see music as quite a profound expression of philosophy. I do not take it casually, which is probably why the Em supporters are flailing in their non-reality based defense of his "art."

I guess this boils down to a couple of points.

1) I'm not trying to get you to stop listening to Eminem or anyone. You have the right to listen to whatever you want.

2) My only problem is when clowns try to play and insist that Eminem is "artistic" in nature. Yeah...if you think Jackson Pollock and Burger King commercials are "art" then you probably will be finding Eminem artistic as well.

For someone who appreciates actual art, though...it is sort of repulsive.

I'm sure my "lower" music tastes (The Smashing Pumpkins, Chevelle, some Drowning Pool, all the way to Pink Floyd etc) are looked down upon by those who enjoy Rachmanioff on a daily basis.

The thing is though....I'm content to listen to my music and I admit freely that Chevelle isn't really "artistic" in comparison to any classical musician.

I have my reasons for listening to what I do and I could (and would) justify them on any day of the week.

I'm also trying to get in to more classical music. I haven't been exposed to much, but my girlfriend is a classical violinist who introduced me to Rahmanioff's 2nd and I fell in love with it.

I recognize good art when I see it, which is why I deign from comparing Cordair art to modern crapola art (like Jackson Pollock).

Speaking of theassmuffin...I saw this on Yahoo News not two minutes ago:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...llock_auction_1

It doesn't matter. I don't care what MTV (lol !!!!) or Trypto thinks of Eminem or GNR or any goddamned band.

1) You laugh about MTV...which I find funny considering the amount of time Em spends courting the MTV audience on TRL and in his songs. I think they are a pretty damn good judge of his music considering their cozy relationship. Moreover, the review (like me) actually cites specific examples which is more than you or the Em-defender has done.

2) GNR's music is cool. I liked "You could be mine" from the Terminator 2 soundtrack.

You of course have the standard "November Rain" "Sweet Child ' mine" "Welcome to The jungle" and "Paradise City" (mostly Appetite for Destruction songs if my memory serves me). Those are pretty decent as far as 80's hair metal goes.

To bad Axl Rose is such a douche when it comes to cancelling shows and breaking contractual engagements.

3) Maybe you should start caring what rational people who use reality to make claims think about a given topic instead of justifying whatever you want with unwarranted assertions. You find find that you have a more balanced perspective on life.

I certainly am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. In terms of knowledge and ability I will admit that I'm FAR behind the majority of the people on these boards (because they are that damn smart).

I would like to give major props to the Speichers, Erandor, AshRyan, RationalCop, and Matt for always providing a model for what I'm trying to make of myself.

I DO care about what those people think about given topics, because I respect them as people and their views based on what I have witnessed.

I don't see myself as less or a person for admitting that.

I don't think that makes me subservient or grovelling in awe of perceived greatness or anything like that.

I can't speak for you [Dinesh], but I believe that the paramount goal in my life is being the best person I can be. Modeling good things I see in other people and taking in rational perspectives is a critical way of doing that instead of being rebellious for the sake of being rebellious.

Just my 2 cents.

Take it or leave it,

-E

[Prometheus]

Trypto:

I'll reply because your post for one was good and second it was honest. I love that.

Now when it comes to my tastes in music, you seeing it from your perspective could say that there's a huge problem with my sense of life. Do I loathe some of Eminem's songs? Of course, some of the crap he does and says is really repulsive. But I honestly don't know how I'd ever come to think of Lose Yourself (or 8 Mile Road) as repulsive. Even if someday, as you cite, that I'd come to listening to only Rachmaninoff, I couldn't say I'd find those two songs of his repulsive. Thats an honest statement. If you think for that i'm irrational or any of that sort, you are welcome to your opinion, but you speak only for yourself.

As far as modelling myself to be that ideal I want to, thats exactly what I try everyday, with every action that I commit. Every time I do or say something, I try to see whether my action was right or wrong. Thats the only way I think i can weed out whatever irrationality is left in me. The reason I use this forum is that I do value the opinion of some of them, like as you said ash, speichers, eran and GC. But that does not mean that I have to stop thinking for myself, I value their opinion and I use it as far as I think it's right. Out here, it's hard to find people who wish to speak honestly and who are rational in their thoughts, so the few friends that i do have and the few here are like a lifeline thrown, there's no way i'm letting go of it. You equated my indifference to most people, as being an indifference to anyone and everyone, thats not true. I love and respect my friends an awful lot. It's like what Ayn Rand said in Anthem

I do not grant my love without reason, nor

to any chance passer-by who may wish to

claim it. I honor men with my love.

But honor is a thing to be earned.

They sure have earned it.

I have always been very eclectic about my choice in music and it's always the case that I pick the few things I like from most bands. It's usually like 1-2 songs that I like from a whole album, but for me thats just great, I listen to those two songs and forget about the rest. I enjoy classical music too, one of my favourites is Rachmaninoff "Symphony No. 25 in G. Minor". It's an awesome piece.

..... instead of being rebellious for the sake of being rebellious.

Thats an absurd generalization.

dinesh.

[Tryptonique]

Now when it comes to my tastes in music, you seeing it from your perspective could say that there's a huge problem with my sense of life.

I don't really think that. Just in answering my posts, you are granting me quite a bit of respect. Your other posts indicate a sense of life as well.

My problem (the majority of it anyways) lies not with you, but with your defender who threw out bogus crap trying to justify Amittyville, Bonnie and Clyde, and that kind of trash.

You admit that Eminem is capable of writing trash.

That alone says volumes about your sense of life.

I have my own motives for everything I do, I'm introspective, and everything I do is with a reason attached to it.

If anyone wants a debate, they can step up.

I like Ayn's "Judge and prepare to be judged" philosophy. I'm prepared to be judged if anyone wants to do it.

The only thing is, I'm not willing to give people sanction to judge me unless I have a reason to care or feel that they are in a position where they could even begin to critique my actions. I don't have enough time to constantly play defense to would be inquisitors, so the only one's I will grant my time are those that actually have some rational reason for taking offense/time to question my actions.

I keep to myself unless I'm comfortable with who I am around, and as a result, people aren't going to know whether or not I like violent sex or Eminem unless they violate my privacy (I don't like either..just for the sake of edification).

I don't believe that makes me evasive or hiding...but I don't feel the need to spend all of my life enlightening people as to my personal character. Some people just aren't worth it...and there is always a time and a place.

Do I loathe some of Eminem's songs? Of course, some of the crap he does and says is really repulsive. But I honestly don't know how I'd ever come to think of Lose Yourself (or 8 Mile Road) as repulsive. Even if someday, as you cite, that I'd come to listening to only Rachmaninoff, I couldn't say I'd find those two songs of his repulsive. Thats an honest statement. If you think for that i'm irrational or any of that sort, you are welcome to your opinion, but you speak only for yourself.

I don't think "loose yourself" and "8 Mile" are generally bad songs if you are willing to isolate them from the artist and nearly all realistic context (like the fact that they come from a semi-autobiographical movie about a guy who grows up to peddle a lot of garbage to TRL hungry kids).

As tunes go, they aren't bad.

They aren't wonderful and I certainly wouldn't call them highly artistic.

If I was coming from an "Objectivist planet" in outer space (and could read english) and I read the lyrics to 8 Mile and Loose Yourself....I would say they are consistent with Objectivist principles (work ethic, drive, self value, etc).

When I started reading other lyrics and about the character of the artist, I would several contradiction that would then require me to check my premises and re-assess my intitial judgement of the material.

Does that make 8 mile and Loose yourself bad songs? Of course not. I never said that they were repulsive.

What I said was that classifying them as "art" was repulsive in the fact that it is a slap in the face to people who do real art.

When analyzing music, I agree with the other people who have commented already on this thread.

You have to look at the actual music (instrumental) first and then you scrutinze the lyrics under a literary/poetic standard.

Em doesn't have much in the realm of actual musical ability. When it comes to his literary/poetic standard....he can rhyme and make puns, yes.

Does he really demonstrate a sense of life or even a negative sense of life (like Doestevsky?) not really.

He is washed out....a diamond in the rough. His art is unperfected and not refined due to his own internal contradictions that hold down his personal life.

He writes a LOT about his personal life...so it isn't a wonder that his lyrics are also equally contradictory and never really allow you to pin down who exactly Marshall Mathers IS.

He is like Dr. Stadler in the fact that he has never (probably due to his horrible home life/raising) seen a need for a governing philosophy when it comes to life.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have Stadlers scientific precision or education...or else he might actually have a chance at showing the world what real art could be (even in a negative value sort of sense).

This is the difference between someone like Eminem and Marilyn Manson.

Both are social agitators and controversial. Both have highly questionable characters. Both have fairly simplistic music (Even though some of the members of Marilyn's band are quite brilliant like the keyboardist who turned down a job at Nasa to learn keyboards or Jon 5 the guitarist who was in Guitar World's 100 Best Guitarists of all Time article).

Marilyn reflects a negative/malevolent view of the universe in nearly all of his music. He does it clearly though....like a photography of a murder that is recreated in lyrics/music in perfect detail.

Like a gunshot wound that is painted in extreme detail.

Negative art has its place.

There is a difference between Marilyn and Eminem. One is an artist and one is not.

Same thing goes for someone like Jackson Pollack

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...llock_auction_1

and a horribly negative artist like Gottfried Helnwein = http://www.helnwein.com/werke/werke/home.html

THAT is my problem with you classifying Eminem as art.

Hope that makes it clear.

The reason I use this forum is that I do value the opinion of some of them, like as you said ash, speichers, eran and GC. But that does not mean that I have to stop thinking for myself, I value their opinion and I use it as far as I think it's right.

That is all that you can do.

You value Ash's opinion....and he is certainly not an Eminem supporter. So what justification do you use when you reject that opinion in favor of listening to mediocre stuff that isn't even really original (like I said...look at Eminem's producers) musically and certainly not ladden with rational values. Instances where values ARE displayed (like Loose yourself and 8 mile) are immediately contradicted 2 more minutes in to his songs.

I believe Concerto put it quite well when he said:

The thing with Eminem is that he is a person full of contradictions. He'll write a song about achieving your ambitions and then it may be placed next to a song about raping his mother. The question is whether or not you can divide his music into 'good' and 'bad' and then take value out of what you consider to be good and ignore the bad. I see how a person COULD find a song like 'Lose Yourself' to be inspirational. Personally, I can never like his music because him producing music that is so contradictory, makes me think that he is an extremely dishonest person.

I frankly...don't see that dishonesty as a good thing. How are you to evaluate a work of art when the artist is lying to you all of the time about what he appears to profess in the form of aesthetic values? By what standard?

What annoyed me was Ramare going to bat for the "underdog" just for the sake of doing it...to the exclusion of reason.

When Ramare starts supporting crap like Amittyville (and can't even muster up a warrant to do so) just for the sake of defending an artist that is being scrutinized, I think THAT says loads about in the sense of life area.

I would question (probably not explicitly in print but rather in my head) your character if you were advocating Eminem as across the board.

A couple of songs he does aren't bad, but past that..you aren't advocating that he is any sort of Richard Halley.

As such...I think you are misguided and mistaken in your support of Em, but I don't think it is because of a negative sense of life or because of an error or morality. I see it as more of an error of judgement.

Out here, it's hard to find people who wish to speak honestly and who are rational in their thoughts, so the few friends that i do have and the few here are like a lifeline thrown, there's no way i'm letting go of it.

Well...are your friends rational? If so...why would anyone be asking you to let go of them? I don't see the conflict unless you are feeling guilty about having irrational friends just for the sake of not being alone.

Do your friends listen to Eminem? Is that where this is going?

I'm not making assumptions, I'm asking questions..just to be clear.

I go to the U of Idaho...and there are crazy amounts of religious conservatives on campus, so I understand what you mean about rational people being few and far between.

I'm very glad that we have an Objectivist club on campus for that reason

You equated my indifference to most people, as being an indifference to anyone and everyone, thats not true.

No. I equated you to being indifferent to myself and MTV...which I thought was irrational.

I do not see myself as being irrational in my critique. I have consistently cited my exact problems with Eminem...and NO ONE has even raised a peep except Ramare...and that peep was a totally warrantless assertion.

I also explained my reasons for using MTV as a valid window in to Eminem's character and "art."

That also went unquestioned.

What did I get in response?

It doesn't matter. I don't care what MTV (lol !!!!) or Trypto thinks of Eminem or GNR or any goddamned band.

You expressed indifference to me saying that you don't care. The very fact that you are addressing me and using expletitives indicates that you care.

It was mildly amusing to me that you seemed to be ignoring your own reality when posting.

If you honestly don't care what I think...then you have to view me as an irrational agent.

If you express that you think I'm wrong in my assesment of Eminem and you believe in rational discourse...that is when you engage in a discussion.

Discussion is impossible with irrational people...and since you opted out of addressing the substantive issue, what was I to expect that you were implying?

The fact that you were taking the time to address me and the issue seemed to indicates a couple of things to me.

You do care and this is an issue.

I do not grant my love without reason, nor

to any chance passer-by who may wish to

claim it. I honor men with my love.

But honor is a thing to be earned.

That is such a great quote:)

I love Rand's views on romance and love.

I have always been very eclectic about my choice in music and it's always the case that I pick the few things I like from most bands. It's usually like 1-2 songs that I like from a whole album, but for me thats just great, I listen to those two songs and forget about the rest.

I can relate to that.

I have 1-2 songs of some artists that I listen to. That is totally fine of course.

I will even grant you that it is possible for a band that I don't really like as a whole to have a brilliant moment and produce ONE song that I really love.

That song might be a work of art.

My real beef is on the specific substantive issues of the Eminem art debate.

Is "loose yourself" real art? I don't evaluate his lyrics and find them particularly brilliant.

Shit...even Tupac sang about getting out of the hood...right alonside singing about gunning down people, doing drugs, etc.

Kind of like Eminem when he works with another group he signed, D12 on their breakout song "Purple Pills."

So are the lyrics brilliant and worthy of artistic praise? Not in my book.

How about the music itself? Canned and produced in the studio...and not replicatable live.

My conclusion? Not art, sorry.

Thats an absurd generalization.

That wasn't really directed at you...but rather Ramare who seems to speak up "for the sake of justice" but does so without actually making any points with substance in them.

To be that is trying to be different just for the sake of being different.

That is what I meant by rebelliousness.

Your dialog with Ramare (without addressing me or my critique) seemed to be playing in to that sort of mentality, which is why I hinted at it.

You didn't seem willing to take in a rational perspective (mine or MTV's for that matter) on what kind of person Eminem is or what kind of music he is producing.

You were agreeing with a poster who made a bunch of unwarranted claims (that there is something ironic in the song '97 Bonnie and Clyde) and vagueries which made me question your motives.

I don't think that is absurd or a generalization.

-E

[Prometheus]

The only thing is, I'm not willing to give people sanction to judge me unless I have a reason to care or feel that they are in a position where they could even begin to critique my actions. I don't have enough time to constantly play defense to would be inquisitors, so the only one's I will grant my time are those that actually have some rational reason for taking offense/time to question my actions.

You said that very well and thats exactly my source for indifference to most people. I did not intend to extend it to you, that was a mistake on my part. I really don't think MTV is a know it all when it comes to music and hence i found it funny when you tried to prove your point saying "see, they beleive it too".

You again ask for my justification for listening to eminem on the basis of Ash's values. Thats wrong, I like those two numbers for exactly what they are and for what they mean to me in the context of my life. And yes, eminem is full of contradictions. You talked about D12, did you hear the new no. they have come up with? It's awful.

I haven't read much of your other posts, most of what I have read from you come from this thread, and I can safely say you and I don't share music tastes except for a few things here and there. Those two numbers of Eminem are really good, but my all time favourite's are more like GNR songs, namely Patience, Sweet Child of Mine, November Rain and Don't Cry.

You said you liked Orgy, it wasn't bad, but not something I'd listen to everyday (like I do with GNR).

I will not stop listening to those two numbers because you think he's not an "artist". For me, in those two numbers, he is one even if it's only for the lyrics. I agree with you when you talk about musical ability. I'd never even compare his stuff to Slash's guitaring (in GNR songs) which is just brilliant in most of their numbers. It's the words of his songs I love, they speak of an intensity that I love to live life with.

Neither will you stop listening to Orgy, because I don't particularly like them. Thats that. And lol, I am not suggesting that he's even comparable to a Richard Halley.

dinesh.

Edited May 13, 2004 by Prometheus

[Prometheus]

Well...are your friends rational? If so...why would anyone be asking you to let go of them? I don't see the conflict unless you are feeling guilty about having irrational friends just for the sake of not being alone.

Do your friends listen to Eminem? Is that where this is going?

I forgot to address this. I was trying to explain that I am not indifferent to rational people and the letting go was just emphasis, nothing could make me. My friends are very rational and thats precisely why they are my friends

On a side note, does anyone here like Dave Matthew's music?? His early stuff like "Ants Marching" or Crash Into Me".

dinesh.

[Tryptonique]

Naw...I wasn't suggesting that you justify yourself using Ash (or anyone else's) perspective or that you define yourself against that perspective.

It just seemed to me like you were throwing away everyone's rational objections to Eminem for the sake of I don't know what.

As for MTV, I don't consider them an authority on music. I consider them an authority on crap rap and cheesball punk (like Good Charlotte).

Thus, since MTV and Eminem go hand in hand, I think that says volumes..and I think MTV is qualified in this case to label and evaluate on of their own.

Kind of like when a religious conservative talks about other religious conservatives.

I don't see religious conservatives as authorities on doodley squat, but they can speak (with authority) about their wacked out beliefs.

As for D12, It doesn't suprise me that they came out with another sucky song.

"Purple Pills" is really really bad lyrically and it was their breakout single.

but yeah....I think this issue has been beaten to death.

Unless Ramare wants to actually say something of substance, I'm don't really feel like continuing a one sided debate.

lol.

nice talking to you, though.

Ciao,

-E

[Prometheus]

I didn't want to continue with the rhetoric either, so that works out just fine, thank you.

dinesh.

[AshRyan]

Speaking of theassmuffin [Pollock]...I saw this on Yahoo News not two minutes ago:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...llock_auction_1

That so-called "painting" made my head hurt!

I certainly am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. In terms of knowledge and ability I will admit that I'm FAR behind the majority of the people on these boards (because they are that damn smart).

I would like to give major props to the Speichers, Erandor, AshRyan, RationalCop, and Matt for always providing a model for what I'm trying to make of myself.

I DO care about what those people think about given topics, because I respect them as people and their views based on what I have witnessed.

I don't see myself as less or a person for admitting that.

I don't think that makes me subservient or grovelling in awe of perceived greatness or anything like that.

Thank you. Based on your posts so far, you seem like an honest, intelligent person yourself. And obviously you're not just being "subservient...in awe of perceived greatness" of me or anything like that since you were speaking out against Eminem on here before I said anything. You have obviously put a lot of thought into this subject, and like Dinesh, I appreciate your good, honest responses.

The only thing I would like to add about Eminem is that it really bothers me how his filth is marketed to young teen girls. I have known several over the years who were really affected negatively by his music, and that has certainly colored my opinion of him.

That said, we should distinguish between making esthetic judgments and moral judgments of him. You've been sort of mixing the two, Tryptonique, and we should be very clear that any moral condemnations of him say nothing about his artistic ability, which is what I think Ramare was mainly getting at (although your points about his music being produced by others and their lack of originality in following the basic rap formula are certainly relevant to the latter). And we should remember that this is music we are talking about, and while some music seems obviously better than other music, there isn't really an objective standard for esthetic judgment in the field at this point and thus we shouldn't take this too seriously. I think moral condemnation of a fellow board member for liking music that you don't, even if you have very good reasons for not liking it, is uncalled for.

[Tryptonique]

we should be very clear that any moral condemnations of him say nothing about his artistic ability,

I agree 100%.

Take a look at any of Gottfried Helnwein's art and you will see a perfect example of that.

He paints such a dark and gruesome world...but it is done brilliantly (in my opinion).

And we should remember that this is music we are talking about, and while some music seems obviously better than other music, there isn't really an objective standard for esthetic judgment in the field at this point and thus we shouldn't take this too seriously.

I guess the standard I use in part is originality.

If you are the first to do something or innovate a particular technique, then I think that deserves greater recognition on the spectrum of value judgments.

In that light, I would come closer to giving props to Run DMC or Tupac instead of Eminem.

He innovated (I guess?) by being a mainstream white rapper, but his material isn't really something that hasn't been done before.

I think originality can be an objective standard, because it can be judged by simply understanding what musical techniques are used and how often they are used.

I do agree that it gets a lot harder to judge music the closer in quality two units get to each other.

I would have a tough time analyzing whether Notorious BIG or Tupac was better (just a rap example since we are on that topic).

I think moral condemnation of a fellow board member for liking music that you don't, even if you have very good reasons for not liking it, is uncalled for.

The point of my criticism in the first place was not to morally label people as being bad or good based on their tastes...if there is something to have "tastes" over in the first place.

If it is art we are talking about and I labeled someone who liked dark art as being morally bankrupt, then that would be ludicrous because that would require that I label Ayn Rand as "bad" for liking Doestevsky (and I find that silly).

I do think that there is an objective standard for what is art and what isn't, though...and that was part of the debate.

I don't consider Pollac to be art...nor do I consider Eminem to be music.

Betsy Speicher had a really good analysis of the ARI-TOC rift when she said:

If spaghetti sauce has less than 2% meat in it, they have to call it "meat flavored" sauce.

TOC is Objectivism flavored philosophy.

If jewelry has a thin layer of gold over a base metal, they have to call it "gold plated."

TOC is Objectivism plated libertarianism.

That is how I see Eminem. Music plated trash.

I'm not saying anyone is "bad or good" for endorsing or liking what I personally find to be trash.

I think you guys are smart and can draw your own conclusions...just as you can draw conclusions from people who take The National Enquirer over The Wall Street Journal.

I think there are objective standards for what makes something worthy in art, writing, etc.

Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be a difference between the National Enquirer and The WSJ.

I think you can identify elements of good art/bad art/non-art and do some simple cost-benefit analysis and see what is worth your time and what should be below you.

Different people place different weight on different variables and THAT is where I think the confusion and differences come from, not from a lack of objective standards.

I think the closer your aesthetic standards come to being in line with the fully fleshed out philosophy of Objectivism, the less contradictions or differences you will find.

Maybe that is idealism? I don't know.

I have lots more living and intereracting with Objectivists to do before I can fully comment on that.

I guess I will leave it at that.

-E

[AshRyan]

I think there are objective standards for what makes something worthy in art, writing, etc.

That's true, and I wasn't saying the opposite, except with regard to music. Music is a unique form of art in many ways, and we still don't know exactly how it works. Read (or re-read) Ayn Rand's comments about this in The Romantic Manifesto.

[Tryptonique]

Will do:)

I don't have The Romantic Manifesto, but I will read the section on art in OPAR tonight.

[Carla]

I don't have anything to add to the Eminem discussion, so I thought I'd get back to the favorites, since I haven't contributed to this thread yet, and I love music!

Most of my classical (using the term loosely to apply to basically any instrumental music from the 17th/18th/19th/early 20th centuries) favorites have already been mentioned, so here I'll address a genre that I don't believe has been mentioned in this thread yet--my most favorite music to hear, in almost any mood: 60s/70s R&B/Soul. The reason I love this music so much is the voices (though the songs themselves and the instrumental musicianship are often outstanding, as well). The giants in my collection are:

Al Green

Marvin Gaye

Stevie Wonder

Otis Redding

Donny Hathaway

...and the queen, Aretha Franklin.

Ordinary mortals can only aspire to the voices of these singers. They each have unique qualities and specialties, but in their specialties cannot be matched. [N.B.: I do realize the that most/all of these artists sing about religion/other irrational topics at one time or many times, but the point I'm trying to express is their vocal quality, and to a lesser degree, the absolute joy in living implied in their singing.]

Aretha (only one name needed) in particular has, I think, an unlimited range of emotion and beauty to her voice. She can express the greatest sorrow and the most unbounded joy, and she can do it calmly and simply or with every fiber of her being. And, as anyone who's ever listened to "Respect" can attest, she can get a party started. To understand the difference between her and "normal" singers, listen to the well-known version of "Son of a Preacher Man" by Dusty Springfield (on the Pulp Fiction soundtrack and elsewhere), then listen to Aretha's lesser-known cover (note particularly the orgasmic--life-affirming--"Hallelujah" in the chorus).

Stevie Wonder is a real package-deal (in a good way): outstanding (instrumental) musician (he plays almost all of the instruments on "Innervisions," one of his best albums), fantastic song-writer, and beautiful voice. Note too that most male R&B and even pop singers who came after him (from his contemporaries such as Carl Carlton, to Michael Jackson in the 80s, to Usher and Justin Timberlake today) have emulated his singing style, to greater or lesser success.

This is getting quite long, so I'll elaborate upon request, but just a few more snippets:

Al Green has got to have one of the sexiest voices ever (try "Simply Beautiful"); Donny Hathaway is smooth and heartbreaking; Otis Redding is deep-down gritty soulful and heartbreaking; and Marvin Gaye is joyous and sexy.

The other genre I love (though I'm not as well-versed in it) is 70s funk, e.g., Sly and the Family Stone, Graham Central Station, and Parliament Funkadelic/P-Funk. The first two happen to include especially good singers, but here the focus is more on the instruments--the driving, funky bass, especially. Again, it's not the lyrical content that's important (usually, though there are plenty of exceptions), but the groove and the quality of musicianship.

Two other singing greats that I must mention, though they don't really fit into either of the above two categories, are Ray Charles and Ella Fitzgerald. There are plenty of others I have omitted, and other genres I enjoy, but I wanted to say my piece on these artists in particular for their virtuousity (IMO).

Finally, though the opinions expressed herein are entirely my own, I must acknowledge my debt to my brother, who introduced me to almost all of the artists I mentioned (he also lurks here sometimes).

[Patrick]

My personal favorite is Frederic Chopin. Some of his music is the most lighthearted and beautiful I have heard anywhere. You can download several MIDI files of his work for free at this link: Chopin, Frederic (1810-1849) (Click on "Chopin as ZIP file" at the bottom of the page)

Check out:

Mazurka Opus 7 No. 1

Mazurka Opus 33 No. 2

Grande Valse Brillante in Eb major, Op.

[Bowzer]

Just thinking of Chopin gives me goosebumps! But good lord! Don't listen to midi's!

Although the sound quality isn't the greatest, EMI CLassics has released Dino Lipatti's record Chopin Waltzes. He is amazing! There are five samples if you follow that link. If you know of similar caliber Chopin recordings (hopefully with better sound), please fill me in.

[Prometheus]

I love Chopin's "Fantasie Impromptu" and "Polonaise". They are both awesome pieces.

dinesh.

[Patrick]

More Chopin...

http://www.members.tripod.com/David_Dobson/chomid/14th.mid

http://www.members.tripod.com/David_Dobson/chomid/18th.mid

[Patrick]

Just thinking of Chopin gives me goosebumps! But good lord! Don't listen to midi's!

Well... MIDI is mostly worthless, but I have found that it duplicates piano music decently enough.

[Tryptonique]

Dinesh:

You have mentioned repeatedly that you like Slash from GNR.

What do you think of Velvet Revolver and their choice to have Scott Weiland be their frontman?

[Prometheus]

I didn't follow Slash after GNR broke up. Never even got to listen to any of Snake Pit's stuff. And frankly I didn't even know about Velvet Revolver until you brought it up, neither have I heard of Scott Weiland.

What genre do they come under? Have you heard of any of it? Did you like the music? What was your point?

Being in India, I don't really get to listen to everything that is released out in the US.

Dinesh.

[Tryptonique]

Scott Weiland was/is the singer for Stone Temple Pilots which was an alternative group in the mid 90's.

Some of their songs include "Sex type thing" "wicked garden" and "Sour girl."

I'm kind of unsure about what genre to place Velvet Revolver in...but I guess hard rock/hair metal would work just fine.

I saw their music video the other day and it wasn't bad. Until then, I hadn't heard them, but I have read a lot about them.

Scott Weiland is in rehab until June. He is like the music equivalent of Robert Downey Jr.

Always in rehab.

My post didn't really have much of a point (I wasn't asserting anything but rather asking a simple question) except to find out what you thought about their music.

Since you like GNR and Slash , I figured if you like Velvet Revolver..I might check in to them further since I don't pay much attention to hair metal/80's spin offs.

I figured that maybe you would pay attention, which was why I asked the question.

[Prometheus]

Nah, I have never really liked hard/metal rock. Most of it just seems like noise.

My interest in GNR is just for 4-5 brilliant songs, which I absolutely love and listen to almost everyday and I doubt Velvet Revolver will ever be able to produce anything close to that.

Even I read up on them after your post, Weiland does seem to be forever in rehab, maybe they should shift their studios there

dinesh.

[AutoJC]

BTW - For anybody into Metallica, by which I mean into their earlier albums, I would recommend Apocalyptica and their first cover album Plays Metallica By Four Cellos.

Metallica sucks.

[AutoJC]

I actually have a viceral reaction against Rage Against The Machine.

Rage Against The Machine make lots of noise. Among all rock bands, they made my Ten Worst list- along with Metallica, Black Sabbath, Megadeth, and Jesus and Mary Chain, among others.

Ayn Rand would have dialed 9-1-1 if she heard Metallica being played in the neighboring apartment.

If it's anti-establishment music you want to listen to, I strongly recommend Miles Davis' Bitches Brew. Especially for its musical point-counterpoints between the backup musicians.

[AutoJC]

Stevie Wonder is a real package-deal (in a good way): outstanding (instrumental) musician (he plays almost all of the instruments on "Innervisions," one of his best albums), fantastic song-writer, and beautiful voice. Note too that most male R&B and even pop singers who came after him (from his contemporaries such as Carl Carlton, to Michael Jackson in the 80s,.....

In fact Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder are of the same era. I disagree that Jackson follows Stevie Wonder's style.

They may be 10 or 11 years apart in age, due mainly to the fact that Stevie Wonder started out as a child prodigy in 1963, then seemed to vanish from the scene until four or five years later. About that time the Jacksons appeared on the scene, with their lead singer Michael.

They were both great pop talents.

[Bowzer]

If it's anti-establishment music you want to listen to, I strongly recommend Miles Davis' Bitches Brew.  Especially for its musical point-counterpoints between the backup musicians.

Miles created quite the supergroup for Bitches Brew. Although it may not be the best choice if you aren't a musician or if you don't care for 20-minute improvisations. If you want some good early fusion music, try Miles' On the Corner as it's much more accessible.