Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

When is suicide rational?

Rate this topic


coirecfox

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 89
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

suicide is the worst thing a person could possibly do to themselves and their family. unless they are about to be literally tortured to death (or some other very special case) ....one who values life should never even consider it.

while its true that once you're dead you feel nothing there will always be people who love you and care about you and its them that you would hurt by committing suicide. death might seem like a simple way out ....but it is cowardly . it doesnt matter if you've been dumped or raped or physically abused....whatever.... a person has to be strong....life is worth living. No one ever asked to be born... but they should appreciate the wonderful opportunity they have to live. Life - you either throw it away, misuse it or make the most of it.

~Isabel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I had an incurable painful terminal illness and my choice was between suicide and months of pain and suffering leading to death anyway, I would likely choose suicide. Basically in order to consider it I would have to already be in a situation where normal life and the pursuit of values was impossible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

suicide is the worst thing a person could possibly do to themselves and their family. unless they are about to be literally tortured to death (or some other very special case) ....one who values life should never even consider it.

while its true that once you're dead you feel nothing there will always be people who love you and care about you and its them that you would hurt by committing suicide. death might seem like a simple way out ....but it is cowardly . it doesnt matter if you've been dumped or raped or physically abused....whatever.... a person has to be strong....life is worth living. No one ever asked to be born... but they should appreciate the wonderful opportunity they have to live. Life - you either throw it away, misuse it or make the most of it.

~Isabel

i don't agree with this. Life as Ayn Rand means it does not mean simply to survive. This is something that stumped me for a while. To live it not a value, but to live happily is. If a person is being denied happiness, or is in a position where they CANNOT seek values, suicide is justifiable. For example, if a person is in a postion where they are denied freedom of thought and choice and are SIMPLY surviving by breathing, suicide would be viable option.

I suppose in such a contect, then, suicide is life affirming. Its reminiscent of good 'ole Pat Henry. Its like saying: "As sole executor of my being, I choose to live freely (and happily) or not at all." Its not cowardice. It takes a lot of guts to make a decision like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m agreeing with Megan here… and to bring up an example: before he was captured John Galt makes it clear that he will accept being tortured - but should the villains decide to torture Dagny he would take his own life. In this situation John could be in tremendous pain (he is being tortured after all) but he knows that his pain is temporary, however know of Dagny being tortured or killed since they needed him at any cost, would make his values unachievable and life not worth living. Anyways, food for thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think euthanasia, ending life when it becomes unbearable trough some disease or choosing to die swiftly instead of a long agony is life affirming. It's choosing quality of life over time.

In some rare other occasions suicide can be life affirming. I'm thinking of Socrates, who could easily be saved if he gave up his philosophy or Seneca who tried to educate Nero but failed and was ordered to kill himself. That's the only two historical cases I can think of.

Other suicides are mostly pointless. If people want to kill themselves because life has no meaning, they should check their premisses. Why does life seem meaningless? What is it that gives your life meaning and why doesn't it work any more?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks again for all the input. The reason I asked is we were having a discussion on this topic at a club meeting, and the presenter made the point that life is the standard of a rational man's ethics. Someone asked the question, "If that is so, why did John Galt say that he would commit suicide if the looters tried to torture Dagny?" I replied that he could not find value in a world where Dagny's torture was possible, that in such a world, values would be unattainable because Dagny represents for him all that is good in the world. Someone retorted that he would still be ending his life and that in any circumstance is a life-denying action. He was very attached to a few ideas that a good number of the group found fallacious. Firstly, he believed that possessing a life gave man infinite possibilities, and thus, value could never truly be unattainable. Secondly, he argued on the idea that the life-denying or life-affirming quality of an action could be evaluated on a purely biological standard(he did not argue this point explicitly, but his arguement held this implication). He gave no consideration to the philosophical/psycological state of a man, ie quality of life on a rational standard of value. He merely asserted that any action that ended biological life was life-denying. We even asked him if he thought if it was life-affirming if one had a terminal disease, and he replied that, because the possiblity exists that a cure could be found before one dies, that ending ones life was life-denying.

To me, it seemed like his argument is a case of the potential vs. the actual. He thought that the sum of all good possibilties outweighed the suffering of the actual. Additionally he seemed very anti-philosophical, which is probably why he was a libertarian. ;):blush:

Needless to say, I haven't argued with him since.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose in such a contect, then, suicide is life affirming. Its reminiscent of good 'ole Pat Henry. Its like saying: "As sole executor of my being, I choose to live freely (and happily) or not at all." Its not cowardice. It takes a lot of guts to make a decision like that.

When I said in certain circumstances.... living the rest of your life in pain because of cancer...was included in it. That said I think you are completely misconstruing the quote by Patrick Henry. Yes, he did say "Give me liberty, or give me death" but that was not saying he was going to commit suicide. That speech was a call to arms to all colonists to rise and fight the British. They were ruled by a tyrant ...their pursuit of happiness was being denied...but that didn't mean they all committed suicide now did it? They fought and that was what I was referring to. You want to be happy in life ....then earn it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Two comments:

A. Socrates`s story was mentioned above by "White Eurocentric Male" as a brave story. To my recollection, he avoided escaping prison and preferred to commit suicide because he did in fact break the law, and he must pay. The law was against "corrupting the sole of the youth". Given the fact that the story was told by Plato, and it’s moral was that one must always obey state laws, I would hardly call it a moral story.

B. I am seeing more and more in recent years old people, who were vital and energetic through their entire life, becoming in their last years more and more disable and depended on others. If they have the "luck" to live to be over 90, they will probably be more and more weakened. In Israel, the situation is deteriorating from year to year because of the mixture of the rise of life expectancy with the collapse of economics (the socialists here attribute this to "the death of the welfare state"). I cannot say I would blame an old person who would take his own life before reaching this stage.

Ayn Rand, I believe, died in the age of 77 when she was still functioning properly (I am deducting this from the introduction to Philosophy: who needs it). But what if she would live ten years longer and reach the situation described above? What would she want then? I am not at all sure of the answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suicide is a cop-out. Megan wrote: " To live it not a value, but to live happily is". Eh? Then few teenagers would live to see their twenties, as most seem to go through a period of swimming in angst and misery. Should I consider killing myself if my spouse leaves me? Should I kill myself if my girlfriend screws around? Should I kill myself if my compnay goes under and I am laid off? All of these situations would tend to cause unhappiness.

A man puts up with what life dishes out. A man doesn't wimp out and take the easy way out. A person who has reached the point of suicide is not likely to be operating with the full use of his faculties anyway, as depression screws up a person's capacity to think.

Speaking as a person who has lost two brothers to suicide...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suicide is a cop-out. Megan wrote: " To live it not a value, but to live happily is". Eh? Then few teenagers would live to see their twenties, as most seem to go through a period of swimming in angst and misery. Should I consider killing myself if my spouse leaves me? Should I kill myself if my girlfriend screws around? Should I kill myself if my compnay goes under and I am laid off? All of these situations would tend to cause unhappiness.

A man puts up with what life dishes out. A man doesn't wimp out and take the easy way out. A person who has reached the point of suicide is not likely to be operating with the full use of his faculties anyway, as depression screws up a person's capacity to think.

Speaking as a person who has lost two brothers to suicide...

Certainly, in all of the situations you describe it would be irrational to commit suicide. However, that does not make it irrational all of the time.

Taking an example from Atlas Shrugged, John Galt said he would kill himself if the looters found out he and Dagny were looters and they arrested Dagny. He said he would rather die than watch her be used as a pawn against him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Redfarmer,

Atlas Shrugged is fiction. John Galt didn't exist. I'm interested in real life situations, not fantasy: give me a comparable real-life situation in which suicide is life-affirming. This is so Orwellian: next you'll be telling me that the chocolate ration has been increased from three ounces to one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They were ruled by a tyrant ...their pursuit of happiness was being denied...but that didn't mean they all committed suicide now did it?

No, but if they fought and could not attain freedom, suicide would have been proper. And, in a way they did. The founding fathers pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor, because if the colonies lost the war that is what they would have lost. The decision to send King George the Declaration was suicide to anyone who knew the strength of the British army compared to colonial militia. Instead of living with their misery, they fought, yes. But they fought knowing full well the strong possibility that it would mean death. If THERE IS NO CHANCE that you will achieve your values; if you are put in a situation where you the achievement of value and thus happiness is impossible, suicide is a proper action. Life (as in surviving) is not valuable in itself, it is only valuable if there is something to achieve. This achievement causes happiness. If this is being denied to you (for instance if the world is conquered by a facist/socialist party whose goal it is to make everyone slaves..you are out numbered, fighting is not an option) then suicide is life affirming. In order to not live miserably one has two options: 1) change a situation in order to live happily or 2) not to live at all. Of course, try and do #1 first, but if this is impossible #2 is a rational option.

Someone also mentioned teenagers being sad. I was a depressed teenager once, but I knew that once I left home and went to college life would change. Although I was depressed and on the brink of suicide, the obvious potential of the rest of my life prevented me from taking my own life. A situation that warrants suicide is a permanent one, it is one the denies value to you for the rest of your life...yes...like Socrates. Although he was sentenced to death, he could have easily escaped with Crito, but he decided to die because his pursuit, the central purpose of his life, was denied him.

Its wrong to classify suicide as a cowardly action. Its much easer to accept whatever misery that comes along because you fear actually dying. It is a brave transition in the proper and life affriming context. For a person who DOES (when he is allowed to achieve value) value his life it is a very brave decision to make to take take ones own life, to affirm that only he has the power to control or to extinguish his being.

The idea that suicide is inherently cowardly is just a trite tagline taken from public sevice announcements. The kind that the government sponsers to keep people alive and paying taxes. To those who commit suicide due to a depression caused by bad philosophy, yes the death was unnecessary and no it was not cowardly. Rather, a very serious and difficult decision. To those who commit suicide because happiness (their sole purpose) is being denied to them, the act is life affirming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Redfarmer,

Atlas Shrugged is fiction. John Galt didn't exist. I'm interested in real life situations, not fantasy: give me a comparable real-life situation in which suicide is life-affirming. This is so Orwellian: next you'll be telling me that the chocolate ration has been increased from three ounces to one.

I don't understand what you think Orwell has to do with it. Have you read Atlas Shrugged? Do you understand the purpose of fiction? The proper purpose of fiction is to concretize man's values for him. Galt loved Dagny so much that he would rather die than see her used against him.

You want "real life" examples of when it would be proper to commit suicide (if you so choose)? Think of the many people who are living in the last stages of a terminal disease where the pain is so unbearable it degrades their love of life.

You are defining suicde as the end of a desperate soul who most likely is suffering from psychological problems. That is only one meaning of suicide. Certainly, killing yourself because of psychological problems is very irrational and does not affirm your life at all. Suicide, however, is properly define as "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself." (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company., as quoted by AIM bot SmarterChild).

Simply because there are instances where it is irrational to kill oneself does not mean that every instance is irrational.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Megan,

You wrote: "Although I was depressed and on the brink of suicide, the obvious potential of the rest of my life prevented me from taking my own life."

Which merely means that you were not so depressed that you you couldn't recognize that "obvious" potential. Seriously depressed people's brains are so messed up that they can't recognize potential when it is staring them in the face.

You wrote: " A situation that warrants suicide is a permanent one, it is one the denies value to you for the rest of your life...yes...like Socrates."

First off, Socrates was ORDERED to commit suicide; he didn't pass that sentence on himself. His accusers merely used his own hands to administer capital punishment. He was a martyr for truth, not a suicide for truth.

Secondly, in order for one to determine if a situation is permanent, one would need to be omniscient. "Even the wise cannot see all ends", to borrow a line...

You wrote: "For a person who DOES (when he is allowed to achieve value) value his life it is a very brave decision to make to take take ones own life, to affirm that only he has the power to control or to extinguish his being."

In the real world, I don't see that happening. I see people screwing up, then getting back on their feet. Those who commit suicide, more often than not, are people who are depressed and thus unable to think rationally.

You wrote: " To those who commit suicide due to a depression caused by bad philosophy, yes the death was unnecessary and no it was not cowardly. Rather, a very serious and difficult decision."

Yes, a very serious and difficult decision. In order to make serious and difficult decisions, it is necessary that one have full grasp of one's rational faculties. By definition, a depressed person does not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sherlock,

We're experiencing a disparity in terms. When you say depressed you mean clinically depressed. I do not mention depression, I mention a sadness produces as a reaction in a rational person.

Emotions in rational people arise from a correct system of value. Happiness or a happy life is at the top of this heirarchy. A person's goal is to achieve and sustain this happiness, and in a situation where this is impossible, a person's decision to take her life is rational. You are correct in asserting that we are not omniscient, we must, however, be capable of making causal, rational judgements. This is the sole judgement of the person in question. If his strive toward value has been made impossible he may take one of the following actions:

1) a risk to restore his happiness, with little expectation of sucess, a kind of indirectly contrued suicide.

2) suicide

In either case, only if his rational judgement sees that his hierarchy is out of reach are these actions rational. Its a fallacy to say that everyone who commits suicide has a mental disorder. Does every person that kills himself have mental problems, or does every person with mental problems kill himself? In other words, which causes which? I would admit that many suicide victims (are they really victims?) do commit such actions because of depression, but then if a medical condition (cancer) which makes the achievement of value impossible (physically) warrents euthenasia, then what about a mental condition which has the same (ultimate) effect.?

This aside, a rational decsion to end ones life is not a contradiction on terms. We see it in Atlas Shrugged for a reason. Life (or achieving value) is precious. I would not choose to live if value (the very purpose os ANY life, volitional consciouness aside). To live, just to survive would deprive me of any purpose. Yes, I would commit suicide.

By the way:

I dropped the point about Socrates because you obviously missed my point. If you can bring yourself to read some Plato, I suggest you read Crito. Maybe then you will understand what I meant.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/crito.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Megan,

You wrote: "When you say depressed you mean clinically depressed."

That's right. Most people who commit suicide are suffering from it.

You wrote: "I do not mention depression, I mention a sadness produces as a reaction in a rational person."

This kind of sadness does not typically result in suicide. Which is a good thing, as individuals usually "get over" the kind of sadness you're speaking of.

You wrote: "A person's goal is to achieve and sustain this happiness, and in a situation where this is impossible, a person's decision to take her life is rational. You are correct in asserting that we are not omniscient, we must, however, be capable of making causal, rational judgements."

Yes, but the judgement "this situation renders it impossible for me to be happy, and it will never, ever change" requires omniscience. Failing that ability, it is not a rational assessment.

You wrote: "Its a fallacy to say that everyone who commits suicide has a mental disorder."

I didn't say that. Nor would I say it, as I don't believe it. Hitler, for example, committed suicide, and the action was quite a rational one (there is no evidence that he was suffering from clinical depression; rather, it is more likely he wanted to avoid facing the consequences of his actions).

You wrote: "To live, just to survive would deprive me of any purpose. Yes, I would commit suicide."

Easily said from the comfort of one's home, sitting at a computer, in temperature-controlled, cushy surroundings. History shows us a different story: people in the Soviet gulags and Nazi concentration camps hung on. Obviously, some survived to be thankful that they had not taken your option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can't always know that its going to work out; you can't always know that it won't. The issue here is rationality. It is rational for a person to make a judgement on the outcome of his life. If he, by his own judgement, cannot see that life will get better, that he will have value and its pursuit restored to him, then it is rational for him to take his life. This is my position and my only claim.

I would have long ago dropped this topic, as I can see that you refuse see the rationality in such an action, but it is the debater (be damned) instilled in me that draws me back to this blasted topic.

I think with a rational understanding of value you can see my point.

Its futile to argue this anymore, I've made any point that is significant to my argument already. If you cannot see the nature of value and its place in achieving life, I can not show you that the abscence of it warrents a rational abdication of that which cannot be. Everything has context, you think I'm talking about anguished teenagers here, no. Reread the thread and find the context of my argument.

You can cite examples of Jews who escaped Nazi Germany and how their lives got better. But what about the 6 million that died? I would have much rather taken my own life than have been torchured and murdered by some disguisting second-hander. Its a person's discretion to decide if he has a chance of escaping or not. Some did, many didn't.

Yes, its easy for me to say I'd take my own life in such a situation in my climate conditioned home (dorm room). It would be even easier to say so, however, in a concentration camp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...