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Help me w/ the woman of my "dreams"?

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I met for the first time in my life, finally!, a woman that inspires me, motivates me, and causes me to think of her constantly about a year and a half ago...I asked her out recently for dinner or a movie, anything, and she rejected me, not even giving me her phone number. She made up excuses, which I shrugged off, and told her that I'd ask her again in about a month. She gave me a couple nice hugs in the course of the evening and she was quite jovial and nonchalant about the whole thing, almost glib, because she gets hit on a lot I've seen. Her attitude is almost like she doesn't respect me, but I could be wrong.

Anyway I want to know what my next move is? I feel if I just keep asking that will grow stale. I've already sent her flowers, shown her in smaller ways my interest, etc. And I would be giving up a comfortable life to be with this woman too, but if I don't try I will regret it I know. I know that women must be pursued, and I don't want to give up and quit when I've already got a foot in the door so to speak. I must note that I am good-looking and have balance in my life and have never been rejected this badly before! Help me fellow objectivists!

(And when I gave her the flowers she didn't thank me for them. Is this important? It shows me her tough character, something I'm attracted to, and I'm not really offended at her "impoliteness", if it can be called that.)

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Ack. Kevin Delany might have some things to say about this, but generally, if a woman tells you no, no matter how politely, she means NO!!!!

The pursuit part needs to be done, also generally, before you ask her out.

I'm not saying you're screwed, but don't ask her again for a while (a month at least), and don't pester her with romantic gifts. You could try giving her practical things or doing some practical stuff like fixing her roof or whatever. Be a little mysterious.

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Ack. Kevin Delany might have some things to say about this, but generally, if a woman tells you no, no matter how politely, she means NO!!!!

The pursuit part needs to be done, also generally, before you ask her out.

I'm not saying you're screwed, but don't ask her again for a while (a month at least), and don't pester her with romantic gifts. You could try giving her practical things or doing some practical stuff like fixing her roof or whatever. Be a little mysterious.

Thanks for the info.

I told her I'd ask her out again in about three weeks after I get back from holiday, but I'm in no hurry. We've known each other for about a year and a half and I think she liked me more in the summer, but the window of opportunity has passed. Can you elaborate on how to be a bit more mysterious? And I can't really do practical stuff like fix her roof as I don't know where she lives or have her phone#.

I don't want to give up on her, and I still feel I have a good chance with her, but she is the type who would take five askings before a yes.

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Here's my take on it. You gave it an honest try - and she's simply not that into you. You did try, so there's nothing to be regretting later on. Not thanking for the flowers is somewhat of a clue that she's not interested (try to put yourself in her position).

If I were you, I'd give it up, and move on. You may even luck out, and that sudden lack of interest on your part, may make her finally notice you (because it's things we can't have, that we usually want). The way it is right now, she knows she could have you at any time.

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Ack. Kevin Delany might have some things to say about this . . .

Actually, Jennifer, I'm more interested in what you have to say than in replying to the original message.

Why would you go from saying that "no means no" — complete with capital letters and four exclamation points — to advising, practically in the next sentence, that he give her presents, repair her roof, and ask her out again next month?

Which is it? Does no really mean "no"? Or does it maybe mean "maybe"?

I'd really like to hear your response, and I am going somewhere with this, but I'll hold off on any further statements until you've had a chance to respond.

To the original poster, I can only say that I think you have a lot to learn about women, a lot of maturing to do in your romantic responses, and as far as the particular situation you're in right now is concerned, I think that you're in for a lot of pain.

I suggest that you do a message search under my user profile, and read every post I've ever made here on the subject of dating and love.

My messages in this thread might be a good starting point — but again, you really need to read and study ALL of them.

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Well, Kevin, from my personal experience it is possible for a woman to change her perspective on someone, but it requires, essentially, that you change your entire relationship with her . . . which, depending upon your personal situation might mean something as simple as sitting down and actually talking to her for a while (if, for example, she has only met you when you were sick and upset and you really just weren't yourself), or, in extreme cases, it might require you joining the Marines and actually, say, developing some character.

I was trying to be generous and not say it was impossible, which it isn't, although I don't think I did a good job of indicating what level of change is necessary to make a difference.

In other words that NO is an absolute . . . but a contextual one, and the context is, well, you as you've managed to present yourself to her. Women aren't actually crazy, our standards do have a rational basis.

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I went through something similar recently. I always liked having a beard since I was 16. My now wife has always reacted negatively to facial hair. Which is something I can understand as I imagine if it can scratch and tickle. So when I really wanted to grow a beard, I made sure to clear it with her first. Why? Because she is truly my top value and I wouldn't put something as simple as facial hair above her happiness and pleasure.

After all, it's just a beard. It's not like she is requiring me to convert to Islam in order to stay married. It's just hair. Well, since I brought her "in the loop", she was more accepting of my decision and she was willing to give it a try. So,I've had it for a month and we've come to an understanding. Plus, she's actually cool with it. So we both ended up being winners: I got my beard and she was a part of the decision making process.

If I had just grown it and insisted on making all the decisions, she would not have been as receptive.

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Actually, Jennifer, I'm more interested in what you have to say than in replying to the original message.

Why would you go from saying that "no means no" — complete with capital letters and four exclamation points — to advising, practically in the next sentence, that he give her presents, repair her roof, and ask her out again next month?

Which is it? Does no really mean "no"? Or does it maybe mean "maybe"?

I'd really like to hear your response, and I am going somewhere with this, but I'll hold off on any further statements until you've had a chance to respond.

To the original poster, I can only say that I think you have a lot to learn about women, a lot of maturing to do in your romantic responses, and as far as the particular situation you're in right now is concerned, I think that you're in for a lot of pain.

I suggest that you do a message search under my user profile, and read every post I've ever made here on the subject of dating and love.

My messages in this thread might be a good starting point — but again, you really need to read and study ALL of them.

I read all your posts in that thread, Kevin, and you seem wise on the subject. I'm just glad now that I didn't say something stupid to her like she is the woman of my dreams; at least I asked her out in a friendly way, and I'll leave it at that. I won't ask her out again for a very long time, and when I do it will have to feel right. I have always respected women, and my confusion was that this was the first time I was rejected so badly and so nonchalantly by a woman, like she was Dominique to my Roark. I am even more attracted to her after the rejection because of her strength, but I will be cool about the whole thing in the future, and try to "lose" interest in her and see if she picks it up for me (she used to light up when I walked into the room, but no more.) I learnt a long time ago that woman have their own personal tastes, and I might not be her cup of tea...either that, or she is indeed playing hard to get. Can't a woman play hard to get anymore?

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she used to light up when I walked into the room, but no more

Well, there's your answer, if it's really true.

I totally agree with everything Jennifer has said. It makes perfect sense. (I just think you needed to hear another woman say it.) Sit back for awhile and try to figure out what you did to cause her to become disinterested in you, if you honestly think that she has changed her mind about you. Otherwise, your attempts (flowers, asking her out for any kind of date - "whatever you want to do!") are going to seem like desperation, which will drive her even further away.

Edited by Liriodendron Tulipifera
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Well, there's your answer, if it's really true.

I totally agree with everything Jennifer has said. It makes perfect sense. (I just think you needed to hear another woman say it.) Sit back for awhile and try to figure out what you did to cause her to become disinterested in you, if you honestly think that she has changed her mind about you. Otherwise, your attempts (flowers, asking her out for any kind of date - "whatever you want to do!") are going to seem like desperation, which will drive her even further away.

i can honestly say that desperation would not have been a word to describe my asking her out; i was playful and genuine

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i can honestly say that desperation would not have been a word to describe my asking her out; i was playful and genuine

This is excruciating to me, you could speculate forever as to why she isn't into you but you probably won't know unless she tells you. So why not ask her? I mean you have your foot in the door already so why not save yourself a ton of headache and just find out. Maybe she had a bad experiance with a guy, maybe she is independant, maybe she thinks your full of yourself, maybe she is just uncomfortable with the attention.... There are a million maybes but if you ask you can get right to the issue and either fix what she doesn't like or at least understand why she isn't in to you.

IM experiance though a lot of girls who don't get a lot of guys to ask them out seem to really be distrustful of guys who like them because they "generally" don't value themselves. They tend to think that guys have ulterior motives because "who could like me" (not that this is nessasarily a concious thought).

So I reiterate, just ask.

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This is excruciating to me, you could speculate forever as to why she isn't into you but you probably won't know unless she tells you. So why not ask her?
I'm by no means certain about this, but asking her seems like a bad idea at this time. She has already demonstrated that she doesn't want to be smothered or pursued and this smells like both to me. I don't claim to have any special insight into the mind of the average female. However, given what some of the ladies on this site have said, it seems that backing off now and maybe talking to her about it later would be a better approach.
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Why would you go from saying that "no means no" — complete with capital letters and four exclamation points — to advising, practically in the next sentence, that he give her presents, repair her roof, and ask her out again next month?

I was trying to be generous and not say it was impossible, which it isn't, although I don't think I did a good job of indicating what level of change is necessary to make a difference.

Why would you feel the need to be "generous"?

Are you saying now that he shouldn't do the things you suggested?

[Y]ou could speculate forever as to why she isn't into you but you probably won't know unless she tells you. So why not ask her?

As a general piece of advice, don't ever ask someone why they've rejected you. It's uncomfortable enough for a woman to have to turn a man down — now you want to come back and demand an explanation?

The only "asking" you get to do is when you ask for the date. She'll either accept your offer, or not. If not, that's all you're entitled to.

Any reasons or explanations you should receive are not likely to be the truth, or at least not the whole truth. Be a man, accept her rejection gracefully, and move on.

[EDIT: I keep trying to post my last two messages separately, but the system keeps sticking them together as one! Can a moderator fix this? Thanks.]

Edited by Kevin Delaney
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Why would you feel the need to be "generous"?

Are you saying now that he shouldn't do the things you suggested?

I was being generous because I don't know him well enough to evaluate him on the "general" loser/stud continuum. In principle, I find it's better to assume the best until I have reason to discount it. Chicoflaco seems like a fairly ordinary young guy to me, but I could be wrong. Since it doesn't affect me either way if he isn't, the only result of always pessimistically assuming the worst would be to make myself even more disgusted with humanity in general than I already am. No thank you.

I also try to give very specific, concrete advice; I leave it up to the reader to recognize the governing principle behind it. As far as should goes, that's up to him; I'm simply indicating a method that can lead to a positive result, if he decides he wants this woman and no other.

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I'll suggest what someone else has alluded to: Leave her alone, don't bother her, and *almost* pretend as if she didn't exist. Treat her with the same formality you would when meeting an unfamiliar woman, and see what effects that has on her. (If you really want to make a stand, borderline to conspicuousness, ask her about the weather)

Eventually she'll succumb!!!! She'll think "Wow, one day this guy is generous and keenly interested in me, the next he's as if I didn't exist." She'll start to regain interest in you, seeing that 1) you aren't desperate, 2) you act odd (In a curiously provoking way), since most guys she's rejected just keep coming back for more rejection and 3) you treat a shinny diamond like a water-bound pebble.

Also, if you really want to get her goose (I'm not sure what I mean by goose, but I'll use it ambiguously in hopes that you can fill in the blank) going, try bringing a friend that's a girl and have her hang out with you while in the presence of the woman you want to hook up with. The once persued woman will automatically think "Oh my God, he left me for her" or "Man, he's wasting time with her instead of me?" etc.

Anyhow, dating can be retarded.

Those are my 2 cents, and if you were to ask me for my credentials I would tell you that I haven't had a girlfriend in 4 years, so maybe it is wise not to heed my advice :P .

Goodluck with the dating game, and remember, sometimes the best defense is a strong offense.

Cheers!

Nick

(PS, I probably won't respond to this post since accessing the internet for me is like finding gold)

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*almost* pretend as if she didn't exist.

Eventually she'll succumb!!!!

Also, if you really want to get her goose ... try bringing a friend that's a girl and have her hang out with you while in the presence of the woman you want to hook up with. The once persued woman will automatically think "Oh my God, he left me for her" or "Man, he's wasting time with her instead of me?" etc.

****sigh****

If a guy did this and I really wasn't interested in in the first place, I'd feel sorry for him.

Let's say I WAS interested and had refused the dates because I was shy, or didn't know how to handle the attention in the first place. If some guy had expressed serious interest in me and then next week he started hanging out with some other chick, this would not make me "succumb." All it would make me think is that this guy is a loser/womanizer/ total floosy who doesn't know his own mind or what he values, and that I am better off without him. Disappointment does not translate into desperation.

On top of that, if I could discern that he was just using someone else to have revenge against me, I'd think he was pond scum .

Sorry for the strong words, but I think there are many men on this forum that need to understand that women are not a big ball of emotion. We are a lot more rational than you think.

Edited by Liriodendron Tulipifera
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I'm confused. Isn't pond scum a lot of fungus. I thought you liked fungi.

No, pond scum is algae. I hate algae.

:P

Actually, the pond scum that is all white on the edges of streams (not ponds) and lakes is fungus. Those white "clouds" consist of spores suspended in water.

Edited by Liriodendron Tulipifera
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****sigh****

Well, Nxixcxk was clear about the results of his methods:

...and if you were to ask me for my credentials I would tell you that I haven't had a girlfriend in 4 years

I say he gets 100% for "truth in marketing" :P

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****sigh****

If a guy did this and I really wasn't interested in in the first place, I'd feel sorry for him.

Let's say I WAS interested and had refused the dates because I was shy, or didn't know how to handle the attention in the first place. If some guy had expressed serious interest in me and then next week he started hanging out with some other chick, this would not make me "succumb." All it would make me think is that this guy is a loser/womanizer/ total floosy who doesn't know his own mind or what he values, and that I am better off without him. Disappointment does not translate into desperation.

On top of that, if I could discern that he was just using someone else to have revenge against me, I'd think he was pond scum .

Sorry for the strong words, but I think there are many men on this forum that need to understand that women are not a big ball of emotion. We are a lot more rational than you think.

Yes, as a man, I agree completely.

Why in the world would you want to send the message that you were interested in someone else just two weeks later? What would you think if a girl did this to you? If I was semi-interested in a girl but wasn't sure if she was right for me, and I wouldn't be the least interested in her if she started seeing another guy right away.

My advice is to be formally polite to her. She already knows you're interested, so ignoring her (in moderation) is okay.

Zak

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More "two cents" from another female. You might have a whole dollar's worth after this! :P

If she didn't accept your phone number, turned you down and doesn't thank you for gifts, she's probably just not interested. If she was shy, she'd have accepted your phone number, at the very least. If she was interested at all she'd be flattered, and probably try to talk to you/be around you more often.

In fact, I'd be a little annoyed if a guy I'd already turned down once started bringing me flowers.

Not to encourage you to be an arrogant asshole, but if you think you're a great guy, then maybe you should reconsider this girl. Why doesn't she recognize that you're a good guy? Are you sure she shares your values? And if she doesn't, why would you want to be with her in the first place?

And if you DON'T think you're a great guy, you might want to work on your self-respect before getting into a relationship. You'll most likely only end up making a mess if you go into something so demanding without it. And furthermore, if YOU don't respect yourself....why should she?

I've got a personal story that might give you some insight on her perspective. There's a guy where I work that became obessed with me. He'd try to flirt with me whenever given the chance.

I remained explicitly superficial with him, cutting conversations off abruptly, blatantly expressing my disinterest. He just wouldn't take the hint.

Finally, he meets a new girl, who he flaunts in front of me, every chance he gets. He's got to be the stupidest git I've ever have the misfourtune to meet. My coworkers think it's funny, but I find it utterly annoying.

So I'm not sure if you really want to try that "disinterest, showing off a new girl" bit. It really just comes off as obnoxious. Also, it's very ingenuine. If you are interested, offer to be her friend. Invite her to go out with your friends, so she doesn't feel like it's a date. And do so casually, or in passing conversation. If she turns you down, let that be that. If you're stuck on this girl, then let her know you respect her and keep your distance. Let her come to you.

I wouldn't suggest outright apologizing, but I wouldn't try giving her flowers or anything again until she shows some interest in you.

Oh, and I don't know if you do, but don't call girls by pet names. "Darling" is not flattering, it's irritating, unless I'm your twelve year old daughter, which I'm not. There's nothing that vexes me more than assholes who treat me like I'm some kitchen-bound housewife who doesn't know left from right.

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I'll suggest what someone else has alluded to: Leave her alone, don't bother her, and *almost* pretend as if she didn't exist. Treat her with the same formality you would when meeting an unfamiliar woman, and see what effects that has on her. (If you really want to make a stand, borderline to conspicuousness, ask her about the weather)

Eventually she'll succumb!!!! She'll think "Wow, one day this guy is generous and keenly interested in me, the next he's as if I didn't exist." She'll start to regain interest in you, seeing that 1) you aren't desperate, 2) you act odd (In a curiously provoking way), since most guys she's rejected just keep coming back for more rejection and 3) you treat a shinny diamond like a water-bound pebble.

This might work in some cases. There's a reason for it.

It can be that a woman automatically gets treated with respect without having done anything to deserve it, and she allows her subconscious to be conditioned by it. If she's very attractive, she may get treated as a goddess by men every single day. Then her subconscious automatizes certain responses in order to "filter out" the 99% of men that approach her. If you are placed into this category by her subconscious, it is nigh impossible to get out of it, and you are not going to get a positive response if you show a romantic interest in her. In order to make an exception for someone there has to be the unexceptional, and that zone is significantly bigger if a woman is constantly bombarded with flowers and love-letters.

This may come as a revelation to some men, but its actually true of men as well. If you're a man, do you stop and turn to look at every woman you meet? Can you count how many women you didn't take a second look at last time you went out? No, precisely because they didn't catch your attention. Some lovesick guy who is pining after some aloof, intelligent, beautiful woman could be completely oblivious to the fact that there's another shy woman who sees him every time he walks in the room and would leap at the chance to go out with him - it's no different with either sex. Both men and women have a blind spot, the "unexceptional zone", where in romantic terms certain people just don't exist. Take your parents or siblings as an obvious example. It may be possible in some cases to modify your behaviour and make yourself romantically visible to them, but if this is intended as an act of self-improvement then their response should not be your concern.

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