Help me w/ the woman of my "dreams"?

[JMeganSnow]

It can be that a woman automatically gets treated with respect without having done anything to deserve it, and she allows her subconscious to be conditioned by it. If she's very attractive, she may get treated as a goddess by men every single day.

Maybe some attractive women can back me up on this (esp. to correct me if I'm wrong), but beautiful women don't get RESPECT from 99.9% men. What they get is:

1. leering glances

2. stupid innuendos

3. weird assumptions

4. ass grabs

5. blank stares

6. dead silence

7. desperate clinging

8. drool

If you're halfway intelligent as well as being attractive, you're in for a rough ride as a woman, because you will NOT put up with this. It's amazing how appealing a guy becomes simply because he can talk intelligently with you.

Edit: I think this gets better as you get older, though, because everyone's too busy with their career so they go months or even years without actively pursuing a romantic relationship unless they fall into one.

Edited December 22, 2005 by JMeganSnow

[Groovenstein]

Edit: I think this gets better as you get older, though, because everyone's too busy with their career so they go months or even years without actively pursuing a romantic relationship unless they fall into one.

Going years without actively pursuing a romance is supposed to happen when you get older?? OMG, what am I to do at 24, then? What are my thirties and onward going to be like? Jennifer, help! Get my head out of these law books and recording studios and into the "scene"!

[Ravane]

As a woman who is generally regarded as very attractive, let me offer a few comments on your list:...

I envy you. I've experienced all of the above at one time or another, although fortunately my forboding manner usually puts off most potential suitors.

But I've found my looks have the opposite affect- people take me less seriously, especially when they find me attractive.

For example, one of my coworkers was lounging around on the job when it was another one's turn to go on break. He told him he'd be back in a minute, he was on break. I confronted him and chewed him out, in front of his lady-friends, for being a layabout and a liar.

The response? "Darlin', I'll be there in a minute, just as soon as I'm done talking to these two ladies."

If it were possible to verbally eviscerate someone, I did it, and quite elloquently. His lady friends visibly drew back, and he tottered off with his tail between his legs.

I used to wear boy's clothes to avoid the attention, but honestly I like looking nice. I like to look at my reflection in the mirror. Call me vain; I certainly won't deny it.

Regardless, I can certainly see her considering you just another blithe asshole out for some booty, so to speak.

[JMeganSnow]

But I will disagree that it's a "rough ride"---to be perfectly frank, I have advantages that other women don't have. When my car has acted up in the past, I have had no shortage of men stopping with offers of help. When I go hunting, I am never turned down when I ask landowners for permission (in fact, my male hunting pals always stay in the car and send me to ask, as they know that I'll secure a "yes"). I have an advantage in conversation, as men will hang on my word and in the process will actually hear me out---perhaps it's only to be around me, but hey, they appear to listen and sometimes even ask intelligent questions.

If all you want out of a guy is a favor, it's easy, assuming, that is, that he's not a complete a**. If you want actual conversation and reliability you have to spend a lot of time looking.

I'm the keep the pros, get rid of the cons type.

Going years without actively pursuing a romance is supposed to happen when you get older?? OMG, what am I to do at 24, then? What are my thirties and onward going to be like? Jennifer, help! Get my head out of these law books and recording studios and into the "scene"!

Geez, Matt, relax, we've been keeping an Avril Lavigne clone on ice to give you as a present after you pass that pesky bar thing. Shh, don't tell anyone that I told you.

[Groovenstein]

Now there's a way to put a smile on my face. Reward me for years of study with a thin, gorgeous, artsy young lass. Jennifer, I don't know if you meant your remark to be thoughtful in addition to funny, but for whatever reason it came across to me as both. Grazie.

[Nxixcxk]

Pff, you wouldn't want to be blatanly obvious about your.... dating machinations (i.e., she rejects you and the next day you rent five lady escorts and bring them into her presence). What I was merely suggesting was this simple fact:

Scenario:

Woman sees man while walking along sidewalk and finds him mildy attractive.

Scenario:

Same scenario, same woman/man, this time she see's him and he's accompanied by two of his female friends and they are having a gay ol' time. Woman finds him ecstatically attractive.

I'm not going into details as to why this is the case, as it's pretty much self-evident, and it even works in the reverse (although not with the same potency).

The above appraisal of the man isn't based on emotion; but rather, reason (seeing a man with two women gives us reason to believe that he has potential for relationship and amicability). So to suggest that I was alluding to women being "one big ball of emotion" is groundless and not very derivable from my previous post (although I will admit that most women I meet are properly catergorized there).

Dating is like marketing: you can have the greatest product or service in the world, but if you don't expose it and present it as if it's the best, it's not going to have a chance. Same with the date-seeker.

So the slogan is: Be a marketer, and BECOME a dater!

[JMeganSnow]

Scenario:

Woman sees man while walking along sidewalk and finds him mildy attractive.

Scenario:

Same scenario, same woman/man, this time she see's him and he's accompanied by two of his female friends and they are having a gay ol' time. Woman finds him ecstatically attractive.

I'm not going into details as to why this is the case, as it's pretty much self-evident, and it even works in the reverse (although not with the same potency).

I, for one, don't find this particularly self-evident. I don't usually look at people who are walking down the sidewalk with their friends; it's rude and intrusive. Or, try the same scenario at a bar. I'd find it much easier to strike up a conversation with someone that's alone as opposed to someone who has formed a group with friends.

In order to present a convincing argument that women like some particular thing, you really need to explain why we like it; what causal connection is there?

[Nxixcxk]

I thought I did explain it (briefly).

We must have different definitions of the highly abstract (<--this is meant to be a joke, and it would appear so if we weren't communicating through stupid internet ) concept of 'look'.

I hope this clears everything up.

IF you are a single woman and finding a potential romantic relationship is something that comes to your mind every now and then, and IF you happen to see a man alone on the street who's about to pass by you, don't you look at him and have a quick judgement, based on his appearance (including demeanor, facial expression, etc.) as to whether or not he's a potential partner?

Appearance, and, if you happen to briefly greet each other on the street, can give you some idea of what that man is like and if he has dating potential.

To add to those two criterions, if a male has two female friends by his side (note: this doesn't mean he's dating them), then you probably know that he has a potential to at least be a friend or carry on a conversation.

The potential for friendship and conversation are two more positives you would add to this guy's file.

So, assuming women like to converse and enjoy friendship, this would be the causal connection.

I want to comment more, but I'm unsure of the context we are talking about here.

[Ravane]

Ahaha. I guess I'm strange. You see, I prefer people who don't seem to get along with others, by choice.

I like the ones who walk alone, absorbed in their own thoughts.

Possibly because I'm one of those people.

I like people who can make quality conversation, the kind that requires more experiences than what-he/she-did-at-the-bar-last-night. I'm not a fan of casual conversation.

So, seeing some guy on the street talking with a couple of girls wouldn't elicit a second glance.

[softwareNerd]

...IF you happen to see a man alone on the street who's about to pass by you, don't you look at him and have a quick judgement, based on his appearance (including demeanor, facial expression, etc.) as to whether or not he's a potential partner?

I was thinking about this with sexes reverse (i.e. male observer).

[As an aside, one wouldn't look at every passing female or consider her in terms of "potential partner"; however, that's unimportant to the example. Let's assume that a male is observing a lone female versus observing a female in the company of another guy.]

I do not see how the presence of the other guy makes the lady more attractive. Have you found that in your own observations of women? Indeed, if my quick-appraisal of the guy is negative, it might take the lady down a couple of notches. Funnily enough, if my quick-appraisal of the guy is positive, I don't think it would change my appraisal of the lady.

[Nxixcxk]

Software, I haven't. There are some guys who would think that seeing a woman with men around her means that she is likely to be 'one of the guys,' and therefore cool to hang out with. (Some of my male college friends repeatedly complain about women and there emotions, so to them seeing a girl hanging out with guys is a possible plus)

I haven't met many Objectivists person to person, so there's a chance my dating idea wouldn't work out well for an Objectivist. However, generally speaking...i.e., if you were to ask 1,000 women selected at random if they found a man more attractive if he had some female friends...I think the answer would be unequivocal 'yes.'

I like people who can make quality conversation

Interesting. I've always been more of a quantity person, just kidding. But from your post, it seems like you might have difficulty making friends, not that that is necessarily a bad thing, but I'm curious, how do you go about making a friendship?

[Liriodendron Tulipifera]

Hm. I'm with Ravane on this one.

[iouswuoibev]

Ahaha. I guess I'm strange. You see, I prefer people who don't seem to get along with others, by choice.

I like the ones who walk alone, absorbed in their own thoughts.

Possibly because I'm one of those people.

I like people who can make quality conversation, the kind that requires more experiences than what-he/she-did-at-the-bar-last-night. I'm not a fan of casual conversation.

So, seeing some guy on the street talking with a couple of girls wouldn't elicit a second glance.

Casual conversation is determined by the intent rather than the content of what is being said. I can be quite laid back when discussing something that interests me greatly, but it depends on who I'm talking to. The antonym of a casual conversation is a tense conversation. The tension arises when the person being conversed with is unreceptive or hostile to what is being said. To some people, what he/she-did-at-the-bar-last-night could be of quite monumental consequence, according to the things those people have chosen to value.

I find myself drawn to solitary individuals, but unfortunately I've had experiences where the person who interested me turned out to be absorbed in something quite different from thought. There is no sure way of knowing exactly what's going on in someone's head. The automatized reactions we develop towards certain people are approximations that are meant to be efficient rather than accurate. Not just because it would take too long to reach an intimate understanding every single person you meet, but also because of the existence of volition, which entails the fact that people can change or harbour contradictions. It is necessary to be able to quickly adapt to these changes in order to avoid wasting time on the wrong people.

I think small talk has a purpose, as a means of quickly appraising someone's view of existence, where their consciousness is likely to dwell, etc. in order to find out if "big talk" is appropriate. Unless you already know the person, how are you going to find out otherwise? When I engage in light conversation with someone, within five minutes we're either onto some topic that holds some significance to me, or we've stopped talking. If you think that small talk lasts longer than that, it's because the big issues in most people's lives seem superficial to you.

[Nxixcxk]

Nice points ^ ^, and I think that is a good rationalization of why one ought to small talk.

I used to be against small talk, but then I wondered how else one goes about meeting someone. I tried, "so, what do you think about the axioms?" but they always just looked at me confused.

[Liriodendron Tulipifera]

The original assertion was that a man will appear more attractive to a woman when surrounded by other females. That was what Ravane was responding to. Certainly not every conversation with a philosophical person has to be philosophical. It could just be about the weather, and there is nothing wrong with that! But the fact that small talk has a place in our lives does not mean that seeing a man small-talking with two other females on the street automatically makes him sexually attractive to me.

[chicoflaco]

IM experiance though a lot of girls who don't get a lot of guys to ask them out seem to really be distrustful of guys who like them because they "generally" don't value themselves. They tend to think that guys have ulterior motives because "who could like me" (not that this is nessasarily a concious thought).

So I reiterate, just ask.

I agree with the value statement above...she says she has been dating a lot of losers, so a guy like me comes along who is successful, tall and good-looking, educated and financially secure, and she flakes out!

Update:

I have just learnt that this woman has lied to me twice and has broken a promise that she made me, so I guess I have learnt my lesson. As well, she has been talking somewhat negatively about me to her coworkers (I got the scoop from an insider at her work.) What gives?! Can't a guy ask a girl out to a movie without being condemned nowadays? Unfortunately this girl is so beautiful, but there is something not quite right about her, and I'm leaning towards sociopathy.

[Groovenstein]

Geez, Matt, relax, we've been keeping an Avril Lavigne clone on ice to give you as a present after you pass that pesky bar thing. Shh, don't tell anyone that I told you.

I hope you've been keeping her cold, young lady. I'm studying now and I get results in November . . .

[Asagard]

Heres the most simple advice

Create competition, dont send her flowers but increase your power over her. Soon its her who will be after you, these took me weeks to find out. Other guys will act cocky, funny and stuff. Just stand out as a superior and something new to her, and she will be all yours

[Groovenstein]

Geez, Matt, relax, we've been keeping an Avril Lavigne clone on ice to give you as a present after you pass that pesky bar thing.

Apparently she escaped her frozen chamber and got married. Way to go, Jennifer.

[Maarten]

Yes, but that's also your fault, you know. A girl like that doesn't wait around forever! Even with her metabolism on hold she will eventually tire of waiting..

[JMeganSnow]

Sorry, Matt. I might be able to swipe some parts from work and construct a Frankenstein Averil LaVigne for you, but that might be kind of . . . gross.

[Groovenstein]

Yeah, ewww. Oh well. When I achieve rock star status, I'll just have to pick somebody else.

Maarten, why you gotta rain on my parade, man?

[Maarten]

Well, I thought it was completely unfair that Jenni took all the blame here! I figured it was at least partly your fault

And I'm sure you'll have plenty of options when you become a rock star.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Maarten