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I want to ask the patrons (and others who have access to this forum) what they think of the atmosphere here in the forum, and based on the response address the topic with regulars. Specifically, I would like for you to think for a minute and consider whether you feel "comfortable" posting here. What I mean is do you feel you are posting, generally, with a defensive posture, anticipating antagonism, or what? Additionally, do you think the way people generally address each other here is curteous and respectful, or not curteous and disrespectful? Finally, based on the overall level of understanding and application of Objectivism of the majority of active forum members, do you feel like posting difficult, perhaps highly specialized, questions/topics on Objectivism stands to be out of place here in this forum? Is there at all a sense of reluctance with regard to the nature of questions and/or with regard to the intellectual level of communication you feel is out of place here? Do you feel that the present audience here detracts from perhaps the goal to ask more difficult questions or engage others in a more sophisticated manner? Aside from these questions, any comments regarding your overall response to the forum would be appreciated, particularly if they are in terms of how we can help change or improve things around here.

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I think the forum is "pretty comfortable". By this I mean that it is somewhere between a typical Internet forum on the one hand and (say) chatting with a close friend on the other hand. There are things I would not say in a public forum, and the fact that substantially all members are Objectivists (or "students of...") will not change that. An email or PM between two members who have established a relationship, being relatively private, would be a more "comfortable" setting.

Apart from the fact that it is public and "forever saved in cyberspace", there are certain things I might say to a close friend that I might not say to an acquaintance or to an "Internet friend".

As for your question about "difficult" topics: do you mean difficult as in "more detailed and technical philosophy", or do you mean "controversial"? If the former, I do not think I'd be hesitant. Of course, one realizes that the people here are not professional philosophers. Still, whatever question I might have, there's probably at least one member who has thought about it already and at least has some tentative answer. If you mean "controversial", then I suppose my previous remarks apply.

As for the broader question: how to change and improve things? I think the best way to approach that is to answer: why am I here on this forum? why is it of value to me? what value do I get that I do not get elsewhere? what other value would I like to get? if I had to design an ideal Internet forum just for my own "needs", what would it look like?

I'll post more about that later.

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What I mean is do you feel you are posting, generally, with a defensive posture, anticipating antagonism, or what? Additionally, do you think the way people generally address each other here is curteous and respectful, or not curteous and disrespectful?

I wouldn't say that I generally feel that way, but there is a small malevolent presence. Even though it is very small, any amount of antagonism or negativity is unpleasant; it was enough to make me stop participating on this forum, in favor of one where there is almost no malevolent presence whatsoever.

There are two sides to what I mean by "malevolent presence." One side is the antagonist, uncourteous, disrespectful attitude you mentioned (i.e. the poor sense of life held by some individuals). The other side is the intrinsic/dogmatic attitude, which is really the one that makes me want to :thumbsup: , and even then, it's only when I see that attitude in people whom I think should know better.

Both are something common to those who are new to Objectivism. Since one of the functions of this site is to aid those people in learning about the philosophy I think you kind of have to take the good with the bad. What recently made me decide to start posting here again was the realization that OO.net's educational capacity is achieved through "veterans" demonstrating by example.

The intrinsic/dogmatic attitude is best combatted by pointing it out where it's encountered; I don't think it's ever going to go away, though. As Don Watkins once wrote on Diana Hsieh's blog, "intrinsicism is our common cold." The disrespectful, antagonistic attitude could be relieved a little by increasing moderation, but there's only so far one can go in this arena before it becomes counterproductive to the purposes of this site.

Finally, based on the overall level of understanding and application of Objectivism of the majority of active forum members, do you feel like posting difficult, perhaps highly specialized, questions/topics on Objectivism stands to be out of place here in this forum? Is there at all a sense of reluctance with regard to the nature of questions and/or with regard to the intellectual level of communication you feel is not out of place here? Do you feel that the present audience here detracts from perhaps the goal to ask more difficult questions or engage others in a more sophisticated manner?

I am generally reluctant to ask a lot of questions here. Not because of the malevolent presence, but because of the overwhelming "noobishness." If there's something very technical that I don't understand, I don't want to wade through a bunch of b.s. that are essentially irrelevant or completely wrong; I want useful answers.

But again, this site has a very large presence online, so it draws in a lot of new people, and it is one of the best tools out there for people just starting to learn about Objectivism.

I think the Premium Forums were originally created with this in mind, but there just aren't enough patrons to make asking questions on them very worthwhile, as opposed to other forums where the average level of knowledge is higher throughout the entire membership.

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There are a fair number of patrons, that I've noticed, and they tend to be the most prolific posters.

Saying there's a fair number is a relative measurement. At risk of sounding like a subjectivist: what counts as a fair number to me and what counts as a fair number to you (or anyone else) may be, and often are, two different things.

My count is 12 patrons, only 7 of whom have been active within the last month.

In all fairness, I haven't been asking that many questions lately anywhere, on any forum. I don't want to make it seem like I have this great bounty of highly-specialized philsophical discussions that I'm withholding from all of you. I really don't. But, if I did, I would begin the discussion wherever I was getting the most bang for my buck, so to speak.

Felipe-

What is your reason for bringing all of this up? Had you personally made some observations that raised some concern? Have other people been expressing some great concern to you?

I also want to re-emphasize that I think any problems in the forum atmosphere are very minor. For the most part, I think things are fine. But, it never hurts to shoot for perfection. :dough:

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A particular member who used to post here quite frequently but doesn't any more, and friend of mine, often comments on the difference in atmosphere's between this forum and "THE FORUM." Additionally, I've personally seen a few people here who get real nasty, and felt like that effected my view of the atmosphere here. For example, some people seem to think that the best way to deal with people who are confused, new, wrong, etc., is to treat them rudely so they don't come back.

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Some of my thoughts about OO.net:

I'm mostly a lurker here, and while I do post occasionally, I mostly visit this site to read interesting conversations and debates. When I first found this site, I liked the serious debate and high standards which were missing from the other "Objectivist" sites I had participated in before. In any case, from what I see, the atmosphere is as friendly and safe as one can expect from a forum which still allows the benefit of the doubt to newbies who may turn out to be trolls. If you ask an honest question stemming from genuine confusion without trying to pick a fight, people will for the most part treat you civilly.

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Yes, from time to time a beginner has been struck down a bit hashly. Often a beginner will bring up a topic that some feel is hackneyed or even dishonest. At other times, a theoretical question is construed as a dishonest question [how do I know reality exists? why can't I kill my own kid?]. On the whole I'd say that people are treated politely here, with minor exceptions.

The nature of the forum is debate and argument, so it's understandable that tempers will fly from time to time.

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If I were the "Web God", I would disallow pictures which move such as the "dough" smilie :) and hunterrose's new avatar. Moving things tend to distract my attention from whatever I am trying to read or think about.

... whether you feel "comfortable" posting here.

Some members seem to be incapable of admitting that they are wrong. This would not be so bad, if they would just shut-up when they realize that they are wrong. But in some cases, they have imputed motives or beliefs to me which I do not hold, and effectively accused me of being intellectually dishonest. This is infuriating. If someone did this frequently, then I would conclude that he was a troll.

Examples:

1. "Is your purpose here in denying the reality of stolen concept to attempt to obliterate its meaning so that you can try and convince Objectivists that an actual 'infinity' actually exists? That question is rhetorical, and the answer is yes."

2. "... I interpret this tangential question as a way of granting that your first statement about speed was in error, without explicitly saying 'Oops, I meant something else'. So the speed question is clearly closed."

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A particular member who used to post here quite frequently but doesn't any more, and friend of mine, often comments on the difference in atmosphere's between this forum and "THE FORUM." Additionally, I've personally seen a few people here who get real nasty, and felt like that effected my view of the atmosphere here. For example, some people seem to think that the best way to deal with people who are confused, new, wrong, etc., is to treat them rudely so they don't come back.

I see. I'm sure you gathered that THE FORUM was the one I referred to as having "next to no malevolent presence whatsoever." I don't think it's a good idea to judge this forum by comparison to the Speichers'. The two are very, very different, and have different values to offer.

There are some great things going on here that just aren't happening on THE FORUM. The same goes for THE FORUM in comparison to here. While I completely understand your friend's preference (I shared it for several months), I don't think it's indicative of any real problems here; it's just personal preference. There are several regular posters here who, after a brief visit to THE FORUM, made the opposite choice.

I'm not really a big fan of public comparisons of this nature, so I'm not going to go into a big analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of each forum. I've seen you lurking around there. You're a smart guy. I'm sure you can figure out where the differences are fundamentally.

As a final note, I want to make clear that I'm against trying to morph OO.net into something that can match the virtues of THE FORUM. I think doing so would be a detriment to the virtues of this one.

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I like the fact that there is no dictator type here deciding which post will stand and which ones get sent back. Most of these forums are similar to talk radio. If you listen to talk radio for awhile you will notice that the callers who agree with the host get help in formulating their ideas, but when an opposing view starts to show that the host is wrong (especially when the caller's position is logical and well presented) the host will shut him down by employing a variety of techniques. If I am going to read, post questions, and state my case, I want to know that everyone is treated equally.

The dictator type moderator will tend to form a group of supporters who he will allow to post just about anything they want in any way they want. Then when an outsider comes along and disagrees with the clique the outsider's posts get the heavy hand of the law. In other words a double standard is applied.

This forum, based on my limited experience, does not appear to be run that way. So far so good -- keep up the good work!

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I like the fact that there is no dictator type here deciding which post will stand and which ones get sent back...The dictator type moderator will tend to form a group of supporters who he will allow to post just about anything they want in any way they want. Then when an outsider comes along and disagrees with the clique the outsider's posts get the heavy hand of the law. In other words a double standard is applied.

Be wary of making allusions to those who are not here to defend themselves, particularly in the presence of those whose respect and admiration the parties in question have earned many times over. I doubt I'm alone in making this warning.

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Be wary of making allusions to those who are not here to defend themselves, particularly in the presence of those whose respect and admiration the parties in question have earned many times over. I doubt I'm alone in making this warning.

The question was asked, I answered it honestly and stand by my words.

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The question was asked, I answered it honestly and stand by my words.
It is not so much what you said as how you said it. Not the underlying content, but the slur implied by the term "dictator". One could as well say that we at OO.net have a whole slew of "dictators" :D Anyhow, I'd rather not veer Felipe's thread away from the core topic.

I'm not really a big fan of public comparisons of this nature, so I'm not going to go into a big analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of each forum.
I agree about the "public comparison" part.

On the other hand, just looking at this forum and no other, what do you think are OO.net's strengths and weaknesses? What do we do that we should continue to do, hopefully even better? What do we do that we ought to change? What do we not do that we ought to?

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Yes, let's not get off course here. However, just for the public record, RSalar, did you mean to say that THE FORUM is run by a "dictator?" No need to elaborate on why or how or validate your claim, I just want to know what your claim is. Anything beyond a "yes" or "no" answer will be deleted, as well as any more discussion publicly evaluating any other forum besides this one.

Furthermore, I want to make it clear that no one has asked for anyone to evaluate other forums, you did this on your own and now I ask that you come out and say exactly who it is you're evaluating, since you've already underhandedly done so. Your evaluation is yours and yours alone, and you will be judged accordingly.

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One of the main strengths IMO of this forum is the amount of discussion that takes place regarding the real world application of philosophy, something lacking in other forums. That gives an opportunity to debate hotly as well as learn.

I had stopped visiting this site a few months back due to a massive degradation of the quality of discussions. Thankfully the problem was solved due to intensive moderation.

On the other hand, due to the lack of a large group of experienced and integrated Objectivists, the atmosphere is not very conducive to discussions pertaining to say abstract philosophy.

Edited by tommyedison
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On the other hand, just looking at this forum and no other, what do you think are OO.net's strengths and weaknesses? What do we do that we should continue to do, hopefully even better? What do we do that we ought to change? What do we not do that we ought to?

Fundamentally, OO.net's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness: its visibility. I don't mean to say that visibility as such is a strength or weakness, but rather all of the things to which that leads. That is the reason we have so many people new to Objectivism wanting to learn, and it is also the reason for the comparitively (although, thanks to moderation, still low) high number of undesirables.

There are a number of things that could be done to increase visibility, which I think were already discussed in another thread several months back. It's important to realize, though, that with every increase in visibility comes an increase in the level of moderation required to avoid chaos, and if moderation gets too strict, it will hamper the newbie-come-learn atmosphere which is so important here.

I don't really have any ideas on what can be done for improvement at present, but I'll keep the wheels churning in the back of my mind. For now, off to school. Ciao!

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I agree on the fact of visibility as well as its pros and cons. Really a two edged sword. One problem on the downside is that at some level of "noise" more experienced members could "emigrate" :P, which only exacerbates the problem.

The only solution that I see is: once we achieve a level of allowable "noise", we "counter" by more "quiet conversation" and sharing of values. Easier said than done, because it's a forum, and content does not flow from an editorial staff.

I think the question for OO.net is this: what value does it provide people who are confirmed Objectivists, past the need to get a lot of things clarified.

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Regarding the differences between the two forums (OO.net and the FORUM) (in no particular order):

-People on the FORUM give you a work out. The posters there spend a lot of time analyzing your posts; sometimes I take it personally (meaning I think they are attacking me (when they aren't) ). On this thread, it appears that people don't devote nearly as much time posting and participating (which is fine), so the atmosphere seems more lax. When people do take the time on this forum, the results are admirable.

-The FORUM has a lot of cool features ("Ask the Experts", "Study Groups", etc.) which this forum lacks. I think it has to do with the fact that the Speichers have many connections with people in the Objectivist movement.

-If I were to make a choice, I think I would prefer Betsy Speicher's posts as compared to her husband's. Both have been amazing helpful and patient with me though.

- OO.net is homier though.

Edited by ASelameab
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Member "JamWhite" and I exchanged a few PMs about OO.net and how it could be made better. I'm quoting a PM from him (with his permission, of course)...

Here is a quick list of ideas that come to mind.

The major problem, as I see it, how do you keep the good people coming to post? What value can you offer them?

I think there are three areas where content can help.

News: I do not know what Egosphere is suppose to be, but here is what I assume: it should be a collection of the best blog entries by Egoists. So, make it so. There are a ton of blogs: Egoist, Noodle Food, Cox and Forkum. Someone should be collecting all of these and linking them (or better just like the best of them). What would probably be best is to get someone like an OAC graduate and have "BoB Bobske's Ego picks". This lets someone who has some training get their name out (a value for them), and provides a nice digest for those who do not have time to read all the blogs.

Second, under news, is general news. The TIA Daily does a wonderful job with its news articles. Perhaps you can setup a deal with them to publish one of their article a day. Or you could setup a forum for people to post summaries of new stories that they are following. Maybe give out a monthly and yearly award for the best news coverage on the site. Again, this helps motivate people and starts to sort out the good people from the amateurs. Again, for OAC students, this is a great challenge because they are taught to write these types of things.

Education: Fundamentally, I see this as an education site. Just like Roark had to learn how to build with new materials. I think people need to learn to teach across their medium. Yours is forums. I assume that the budget is very small. So what I suggest is that you charge for the education stuff. But the purpose of charging is to make money to pay someone to teach. What should they teach? How to study the material. From the AR Bookstore, you can buy a set of study questions for OPAR. What about study questions for _Objectivist Ethics_? What if you cannot answer a question, or want to have your answer addressed? This is a great use of the forum to analyze specific answers to specific questions. Where I you, I would find an Objectivist or two who are perhaps in philosophy graduate school and need some extra money and pay them through some system for the time and effort to put up study material. Again, this helps people get their name out, helps them provide resume material for work done, and gives your readers some real useful content and something to discussion.

Second under education would be to encourage organized analysis. First semester OAC students are required to take apart op'eds and analyze them (I know because I am one). If you can get some people to start using these technique with different works on the board, you can get some real intellectual discussion going. Perhaps, have a _book of the month_ thing so everyone is analysing the same thing.

You have some stabs at this in your movie review section. But the problem as I see it is that these are just reviewed by any random person. There is not incentive to review well, or to be responsibility for what you post. Here again, putting the best reviews on Egosphere will help get people to start working harder on these. Recognition for work will get better work produced.

Culture: The final area where content should be added, I call "culture". The whole reason we study philosophy is to act. I think the thing Objectivist needs most is egoistic journalism. We can all see the worst things happening around the world. What about the best? The TIA has a new human achievements blog which is great, but what about things happening all around us now?

I think you should have a constant contest to hunt for the best of humanity to report on the forums. The best of those articles to posted on Egosphere.

Along these same lines, because ObjectivismOnline is itself a culture organization. Create a "best of" forum, charge people to read it and post the best material from all the forums for the week. This will keep the good people reading more because you own the content and they can just read the digested best (with links of course so that they can be a part of the conversation).

In summary, here is what I really suggest: focus on pushing the best thinkers on your forums into the spotlight (let them use this as a jumping board), great as many rewards as you possible can for generating the best content on your boards, and make Egosphere an engine so that people can read the best in online Objectivism in one place.

One of the best ways to achieve this is partnering. Not just with TIA and CapMag (but definitely with them) but with commercial companies who will pay you to promote them so that you can pay people to create the content to keep more people coming. There is a spiral here: the more content, the better people, the more money, the more content.

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People on the FORUM give you a work out.
Speaking of "work outs", we get some of our best work-outs from people who wander in from the village of the clueless. ;) While it is irritating at times, I think that those who take the time to answer are the ones getting the good workout.

<back-pat>In that sense, I think OO.net is a great place for intellectuals who want to practice their polemical skills to be better able to use the same out in the non-Objectivist world. </back-pat>

I agree.

Edited by Free Thinker
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I do not feel comfortable posting here for a number of reasons. (as you can deduce from my low post count, and lack of posts for many months now)

1. I have much to learn and I generally find people have already posted similar topics to what I want to discuss.

2. People who have posted in the past that hold views similar to mine were blocked, so I'm taking a lesson from them and just keeping my mouth shut.

3. I just don't like the general method that most topics are responded to here. If *someone* asks a question, rather than answer the question, a bunch of the high number posters quickly jump in like a bunch of pirahnas and disect the question until the topic is no longer about whatever the question was, but about someone's specific word choice and establishing the definition of a specific word. Then, if the poster decides that his question was worded poorly and tries to correct himself, he is chastised for *poor word choice*.

4. This definitely does not feel like a friendly place to post (to me) since posters here are molded into the perfect supporter of Ayn Rand as if Her's were a/the Divine Voice. Those that do not conform to the mold are blocked or kindly directed to the door before they are. I guess I just think that the people that moderate here are a little bit too thrilled with their power. Many people here strike me as people that have never held a position of authority, or not much of one, so when they get a position of pseudo-authority (web site moderator) they go crazy with it like it's a new toy.

5. The things I don't like aside, I like this place because once I wade through enough of what I think is garbage, I find something that I like and then I learn quite a bit. It is a good place with good intentions, just poorly overmanaged.

6. I know, just from my reading experience, that people will challenge me to cite incidents of my claims. I was asked to comment, and I did. If you want evidence, keep my comments in the back of your head when you read the posts in the forum from now on.

As far as recommendations for improvement:

I am a moderator on a fairly active forum, and one of the things that makes our forum run very smoothly is the fact that I really don't do much as a moderator. I keep spammers out, and I keep personal attacks down, and I make sure nothing pornographic gets posted. Short of that, I don't really do much. The people that are there love it because they are free to say whatever they want about anything. Imagine that, freedom to say whatever they want, i.e. not restricted to (for lack of a better term( toeing the party line. It is a gun-related forum, and we don't get crazies coming in and arguing about whether or not gun control should be there or not. They just won't be welcomed, so they don't come. There are no restrictions saying if you are a liberal gun-grabber, you cannot join or post. They just don't of their own accord. Similarly, if you stopped regulating that nobody can speak out against ARI or Ayn Rand, I expect the speaking out against them will not really exist. It really does not contribute to the "open forum" atmosphere when users are constantly reminded of restrictions and consequences of not following the rules. Rather, I think that those that disagree with ARI, etc. will not come here purely out of the fact that this would not be their crowd, and would not want to hang around here. I'm a huge fan of hands-offf moderating, and this forum is certainly not that.

There's some input from a ghost reader here. Take it for whatever you think it's worth.

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We'll I guess I can be the Newbie point of view on the topic. I find sometimes posting is a little intimidating. I find that the Advanced and Senior members are, well, advanced when it comes to this philosophy. As well as yes there are alot of newbies here. Sometimes it's apparent that the advance members have little patience with a newbie's stupid, upsurd, and downright bad ideas or assumptions. This can be a good thing because it forces people to make sure they think their comment through instead of just running off at the jibbs about how George Bush could probably breakdance better than Ayn Rand or something and not support their claim with any real creditable premises. It could also though turn people off, one example is I remember some guy trying to post starting a Objectivist political party. Now you know this is kinda funny because we all know that it wouldn't be too successful in this day and age, but I kinda admire the guy for having heart. I also enjoy when people just wanna get out and get involved in a Objectivist movement and show the world that "Hey this Objectivism stuff makes sense". Though I think his direction was a little misguided few of the members tried to "guide" him to a more reasonable idea. Most of the forum just dug knee deep in his ass with how much a waste of his time or how silly his idea was. I think of it as if Ayn Rand was part of this forum, I'm sure she would be an advanced member, and I would hope if I ever came up with a bad idea she wouldn't just stomp my shit in the ground. But instead show me the piece of the philosophy I have missed without making me feel like a dumbass after all are we not all brothers and sisters trying to learn this great philosophy.

(Mod's note: Added link to the thread that was referenced - softwareNerd)

Edited by softwareNerd
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