Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Objectivist Views On Divorce

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

There has been an issue that I've been struggling with throughout most of my marriage. My wife and I have nothing in common. Since about 3 years after getting married (and after having a child) I began to realize that this is a big problem. I'm an atheist, she's a christian. I want to get my pilot's license, she is afraid of heights. I like to scuba, she can't swim. I want to ski and hike in the mountains, again the heights and she has no interest in mountains. Why did I marry her? Partially because while dating she played nice and made it seem like the differences weren't all that great. Also because she made all kinds of promises of compromise (which she hasn't kept). I was young, and didn't know how much I should expect that we should have in common. I would like to divorce her, but I love my children, and wouldn't want to lose them or cause such a big disruption in their lives. I'm now in my 12th year of marriage and I really want out. My state usually advises joint custody, and if I did divorce I would be there for my kids as much as possible. I am already really involved with raising them. I know divorce would be hard on them though.

My question is this: Would an Objectivist, who realizes that he only has maybe 40 more years of life left, and then that's it - game over, divorce and seek out the kind of life he's always wanted, while still staying involved with his kids? Or does he stay in his marriage (there's no argueing - just dull cohabitation) for the sake of his kids mental stability?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As parents you have an obligation to your children. If divorce has been shown to negatively effect a child's health and mental integrity, then I think it is out of the question.

However, if the relationship is so terrible b/t the two of you that the children would be worse off watching their parents try and get along as oppose to simply separating, than maybe it's time to separate.

A lot must be taken into account before making the decision, good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If by "Objectivist" you mean a person who is wholly committed to the unwavering application of reason, and to his life as the standard of value, then he, in this situation, would perform the most basic analysis of the situation: Cost & Benefit analysis.

Cost and Benefit comparison lies at the root of most decisions in a social context and is the only way to come to a reasonable decision in a situation that is in a context such that decides the path of a large portion of one's life.

Cost: Legal, Emotional (relating to legal custody issues and inevitable animosity between you and your spouse, depending of course on how much of your feelings you have communicated), and psychological (relating to the extreme difficulty of explaining divorce to children in such a way that does not skew their basic understanding of the institution of marriage.) Among others.

Benefit: Not living in sacrifice of your happiness (which the original basis of your marriage, a reckless stumbling into marriage, that you described has seemingly caused) Freeing your self of some of the intense obligations involved in maintaining a working household (by consolidating obligation to mostly monetary contribution) Being free to seek someone who closely embodies your values that you recognise in relation to your life that you may, in the future, be very happy with. Among others.

This is a very basic rundown from just what you provided.

You seem to beg the question. You say, ' Would an Objectivist get a divorce?' If I insert my definition of an objectivist it would state: "Would someone who is devoted to the application of reason and to his life as his standard of value get a divorce in this situation?" Well, are you devoted to the application of reason, and do you hold your life as the standard of value? If so, then you must make the most 'economical' decision in regards to the cost and benefits of either route in the context of your life as a whole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is, I believe, relevant:

From www.drhurd.com (an Objectivist who specializes in these kinds of things)

Q: Dr. Hurd, Is it proper to stay together for the benefit of your children? I'm considering divorce of my wife, but worry about the kids.

A: No, not just for your children. If you are literally doing it ONLY for your children, then you are going to resent them and hurt their self-esteem and also show them a poor model for a marital relationship. At the same time, you owe it both to your children and yourself to make absolutely sure that you have tried everything to make your marriage happier—and, once you run out of ideas and/or it becomes clear nothing is working, then you need to start talking with your wife about rationally separating. Expect her to be resistant and somewhat emotional at first (assuming she doesn't yet agree divorce is warranted or desirable), but ultimately, as Aristotle wrote, "A is A" and she will have to accept the reality of what’s happening and would serve her own and the kids’ interests better by working with you than paying a lawyer to do it very inefficiently and inhumanely through a family court system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You’ve already received some good advice above.

If you had no children, this would be easy. However, when you have children, I believe that you make a commitment to raise them in a safe household and to provide for their needs until they reach the age of 18. I know that is what my wife and I consciously decided to do before our kids were even conceived. I would hate to see you go back on the commitment that you made on behalf of your children.

On the other hand, if a spouse is unfaithful, abusive, or is addicted to drugs or alcohol, then I believe divorce is an appropriate option even when children are involved. Also, if you are so unhappy in the relationship that it damages your ability to be an effective parent, then divorce may be a viable alternative. Nevertheless, things I’ve seen in my own life and with others indicate that divorce often turns out to be very damaging for the kids and their parents as well.

Have you tried every possible avenue to imporve the relationship with your wife? Surely she must still have some admirable qualities that you saw in her at the time of your marriage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If by "Objectivist" you mean a person who is wholly committed to the unwavering application of reason, and to his life as the standard of value, then he, in this situation, would perform the most basic analysis of the situation: Cost & Benefit analysis.

I have done something like the Cost & Benefit analysis you recommend. Benjamin Franklin advises thought processes used in chess for decisions in your life. This is what he says:

Foresight: Look into the future and consider the consequences.

Think about real advantages to yourself

Think about the impact on others

How that might then reflect back on your life

Circumspection:

Examine the bigger picture

What are the dangers?

What are the possibilities?

Caution: Once you have made a move you set into play a series of events

Dont make moves in haste or in passion

This helps to sort out the advantages and disadvantages. But when I get to "Think about the impact on others" i.e. my kids, I am stumped again because this is an unknown. Obviously I will try and minimize the impact as much as possible, but there will still be an impact. I have no way of knowing what it will be. So I have this huge unknown variable in my Cost/Benefit equation.

You seem to beg the question. You say, ' Would an Objectivist get a divorce?' If I insert my definition of an objectivist it would state: "Would someone who is devoted to the application of reason and to his life as his standard of value get a divorce in this situation?" Well, are you devoted to the application of reason, and do you hold your life as the standard of value? If so, then you must make the most 'economical' decision in regards to the cost and benefits of either route in the context of your life as a whole.

I am devoted to the application of reason. It usually serves me well. But not necessarily when there are unknowns. When it comes to my wife, and the rest of society, I am an Objectivist. I hold my life as the standard of value. But when it comes to my kids, they have value to me as well. The only form of immortality we can hope for is in our offspring. They carry my genes, my morals, and my teachings into the future beyond my death. That said, the only option for me is to make some kind of a rational decision. But what do you do when there are such big unknowns like I've mentioned above?

I must crack that variable. So I've been looking into studies on children of divorces. Some are ok, some are not. lol no help. All that tells me is to proceed carefully, which I already know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you tried every possible avenue to imporve the relationship with your wife? Surely she must still have some admirable qualities that you saw in her at the time of your marriage.

I agree. I would exhaust every possible alternative (before divorce) - this is my opinion and not what I understand the Objectivist opinion to be. My recommendation would be to be as brutally honest with her and ask for that same brutal honesty in return. Does she know and is she honest with herself and you about all these differences? Are you honest with her about the differences? Are you honest with her about how it affects your happiness? Do you know if it affects her happiness? I think that there are usually ways to fix a marriage, you just have to isolate the problem (through honesty) and then fix it. Honesty can release enormous amounts of pressure in a relationship if it's communicated in a reasonable, composed, and sincere manner.

For example:

You never mentioned what she is interested in (except Christianity). Why don't you pick one of her reasonable interests (let's say she likes to play the piano) and compromise. You try something she likes (with her) and then you switch and she tries something that you like (if she can't scuba, it can be swimming lessons - or maybe you can give her lessons yourself and maybe she can teach you to play piano!). Sureley she has some reasonable interests? Faced with the real consequences of a divorce (does she know that you are thinking about divorce?), it may motivate her to compromise a bit more. If you've already tried all of this, I apologize, I just didn't have enough background information.

I hope everything works out.

Edited by NewYorkRoark
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you tried every possible avenue to imporve the relationship with your wife? Surely she must still have some admirable qualities that you saw in her at the time of your marriage.

I know if my wife smelled divorce that she would begin to take action to strengthen her case for custody. The courts are already slanted in favor of the mother. Even with joint custody it's usually about 60% for the mother and 40% for the father. So being the rational person I try to be, I want to think this out and decide if divorce is even an option for me. If it is, I will try to come up with the best strategy I can to get the best custody situation before telling my wife and filing for divorce. If it's not an option, then I will work on my marriage with my wife.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inspector pointed to Dr. Hurd's site. I would strongly suggest that you get professional advice. If you prefer, for starters, at least read a couple of books written by professionals. Check Dr. Hurd's recommendations. There are a few about the specific issue you are facing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You never mentioned what she is interested in (except Christianity). Why don't you pick one of her reasonable interests (let's say she likes to play the piano) and compromise. You try something she likes (with her) and then you switch and she tries something that you like (if she can't scuba, it can be swimming lessons - or maybe you can give her lessons yourself and maybe she can teach you to play piano!). Sureley she has some reasonable interests? Faced with the real consequences of a divorce (does she know that you are thinking about divorce?), it may motivate her to compromise a bit more. If you've already tried all of this, I apologize, I just didn't have enough background information.

I hope everything works out.

Thanks. Compromise is good. I gave into some things hoping that she would too. I live in TX because she wants to. I can't stand the place. I agreed to go to church with her once/month. It turns out more like twice though (painful experience). I told her I'd go on vacations to places she wants to go in hopes that we can go where I'd like to go sometimes. I just want to get out once in a while. She won't even do that because she thinks I'll be miserable. I do try my hardest to be sincere. I say let's go to xxxx then (which we agreed to before marriage). "No". No discussion. We try compromising on where to go when we date. She gets tired of doing even what she wants to do, and will not do what I'd like to do. So we just go out to eat.

Her activities are watching tv shows (I can't stand her shows & visa-versa), crafts (just not me), redecorating/remodelling the house (can I have some down time please?) and gardening (in 100 degree temps & 95% humidity). Her new hobbies in addition to these are church activities.

Yes, thank you to Inspector and softwareNerd. I will look into what Dr Hurd has to say as well, and I will seek counseling, at least for myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This helps to sort out the advantages and disadvantages. But when I get to "Think about the impact on others" i.e. my kids, I am stumped again because this is an unknown. Obviously I will try and minimize the impact as much as possible, but there will still be an impact. I have no way of knowing what it will be. So I have this huge unknown variable in my Cost/Benefit equation.

Impact compared to what? Do you mean, compared to the fact that you'd be exemplifying the idea that one MUST accept a dull, boring, unfulfilled life on someone else's behalf because of "consequences" you can neither predict nor control? What kind of message is that?!

I hear people say, all the time, that they're not really unhappy, they're just . . .not especially happy. Well, let me explain something here: a dull life is an unhappy one. I've been there. It doesn't work, and the only way to continue to deal with it is to kill any hopes or dreams you ever might once have had.

Getting a divorce does not mean that your kids will turn into dope addicts and criminals. You have no obligation to provide them with a "perfect" life, as I've said more than once on this forum, there is no such thing, because there is no upper limit to how good your life can be.

Ultimately, your kids will be responsible for their own decisions whether you are a drunk or a perfect parent. All you can do is give them a breathing space between when they're born and when they have to have enough figured out to deal with the world all on their own. If you do that, you're a good (enough) parent. Everything else comes from the joy of being a parent, from games to presents to anything else you might choose to name.

My advice: you should have gotten the divorce 9 years ago, but no sense crying over spilled milk. The longer you wait, the more you'll lose when you finally do give up on the relationship. Divorce has a significant negative impact on your net worth and future earning power; that is the biggest negative involved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your situation is a tough one because it sounds as if your wife might become vindictive. I'm not an attorney, but I have had dozens and dozens of clients who have gotten divorced. The expense and the heartbreak in some of these matters was enough to make everyone involved (with the possible exception of the lawyers) sick.

If there is no way to avoid a divorce, I'd suggest using professionals and planning it out as carefully as possible. I'm sorry, I wish I could be more help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there's no adultery, abuse or addiction involved, I'd say your commitment to your kids is the primary consideration here. Especially if you want them to grow up learning Objectivist values along with the Christian ones their mom will teach. It's highly unlikely that you'd be able to spend as much time with them after a divorce as you can while married.

You might want to check with a lawyer as to how much more a divorce is likely to cost you if you wait until the kids are grown. (It depends on your income, your wife's income, and the laws of your state.) It may be that, at 12 years, you're already past the point where it gets as expensive as it ever will be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off, DrBaltar, thank you for sharing your very difficult situation. I hope your post is widely read. Far too many young people today are truly clueless about marriage; they have no idea how serious a matter is it, and what very serious consequences can follow if it doesn't work out.

Would an Objectivist, who realizes that he only has maybe 40 more years of life left, and then that's it - game over, divorce and seek out the kind of life he's always wanted, while still staying involved with his kids? Or does he stay in his marriage (there's no argueing - just dull cohabitation) for the sake of his kids mental stability?

Forget about trying to figure out what "an Objectivist" would do. There are no hypothetical people here; this is about you, your situation, and the choice you're going to have to make (and live with). Objectivism has nothing to say about anyone's specific problems or decisions; a philosophy can offer you ethical principles, and others can share ideas and advice, but ultimately you're always responsible for making your own choices and living your own life.

I am devoted to the application of reason. It usually serves me well. But not necessarily when there are unknowns. When it comes to my wife, and the rest of society, I am an Objectivist. I hold my life as the standard of value. But when it comes to my kids, they have value to me as well.

How can you be devoted to reason, but only under certain circumstances? What mental method do you employ in the exceptions? Blind faith? Intuition? ESP?

But more importantly: How does being an Objectivist in any way preclude loving your kids and wanting the best for them?

I think you may be laboring under some very bad misconceptions about what it means to be rational. While I can't go into long explanations (you might want to re-read The Virtue of Selfishness), suffice it to say that a parent's self-interest, and his children's best interests, are not only not in conflict, they're one in the same.

If you begin with the notion "It's either my life and happiness, or my children's lives and happiness — either I suffer for them, or they're going to suffer for me," I guarantee that everybody is going to end up suffering in the long run.

The only form of immortality we can hope for is in our offspring. They carry my genes, my morals, and my teachings into the future beyond my death.

If that's your only hope for "immortality," then immortality is a lost cause. People are independent entities, not extensions of their parents. Everyone no doubt carries much of their family's genetic material and physical characteristics (big deal), and certainly we've all been been influenced and affected by our parents in a thousand ways, large and small. But ultimately, we are who we are by choice, and that's what really matters.

I can promise you, though, if you turn yourself into a sacrificial zombie for the "benefit" of your children — or worse, your kids get the feeling that, in your eyes, they are pawns who exist to carry on your legacy and live up to your expectations — they'll most likely resent it, and you, for the rest of their lives. That's a kind of immortality, I suppose, though probably not what you had in mind.

I know if my wife smelled divorce that she would begin to take action to strengthen her case for custody. . . . If it's not an option, then I will work on my marriage with my wife.

You seem very bitter toward your wife. From what you've written, I get the impression that you're in a truly loveless marriage. You don't respect her. Maybe you have good reason not to — I don't know. You certainly haven't said anything at all positive about her here. You imply that if there were no children involved, you would have parted ways a long time ago.

I have no idea if your marriage can be "saved." I do know, however, for an absolute fact, that marriage is first and foremost a romantic relationship; without a shared feeling of romantic love at its base, it's meaningless to talk about working to try to improve it.

I also know that you have a right to be happy, and that your happiness is by far the greatest gift that you could give to those you care about.

No matter what choice you make, you're going to have some very challenging times ahead of you.

Edited by Kevin Delaney
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forget about trying to figure out what "an Objectivist" would do. There are no hypothetical people here; this is about you, your situation, and the choice you're going to have to make (and live with). Objectivism has nothing to say about anyone's specific problems or decisions; a philosophy can offer you ethical principles, and others can share ideas and advice, but ultimately you're always responsible for living your own life.

I realize the ultimate decision comes down to me. I have been wrestling with this issue for quite some time though. As much as I think about it, all I come up with is that I am exactly on the fence on what to do. Not leaning to one side or the other. One thing I do know for sure is I don't like the fence.

I've talked to other people about it, but most of the ones I've talked to are Christians so their line of thinking is something like "marriage is a divine joining of two souls. You have no right to break what God has put together" or something along those lines. Without common ideals their reasoning makes no sense to me. So I set out to find what philosophy most closely matches my ideals. Not to justify any decision one way or another (as I've said I'm on the fence), but to take advantage of thourough analysis on this issue or experience from others who share my same basic principles. BTW, in doing this I wrote out what my core beliefs are, and sketched out my general philosophy first before exploring all the other philosophies out there so I wouldn't be skewed by reading some of the other philosophies. Objectivism most closely matches me.

How can you be devoted to reason, but only under certain circumstances? What mental method do you employ in the exceptions? Blind faith? Intuition? ESP?
I am always devoted to reason. The problem I said I was having is what to do with the unknowns such as what impact will divorce have on my kids. If I used blind faith, or ESP then I'd ignore the hole in the facts I need and blindly proceed. I am not doing that though. What I said depends on the situation is when I put myself before others. Which is always with the exception of my kids, and I explained my reasoning why.

I think you may be laboring under some very bad misconceptions about what it means to be rational. While I can't go into long explanations (you might want to re-read The Virtue of Selfishness), suffice it to say that a parent's self-interest, and his children's best interests, are not only not in conflict, they're one in the same.

If that's your only hope for "immortality," then immortality is a lost cause. People are independent entities, not extensions of their parents.
I may have some misconceptions about rationality. I am new to the formal philosophy of Objectivism, though I feel I've been practicing much of it automatically in my life. With the above two quotes you seem to contradict yourself. Which is it? Are a parent's self-interest and his children's best interests are the same, or are parents and children independent entities? As for immortality, I think all of us atheist know it's a lost cause, but my children will probably be my most lasting legacy. The biologists will probably solve the cell degeneracy problem within 5 years after I die though lol.

I can promise you, though, if you turn yourself into a sacrificial zombie for the "benefit" of your children — or worse, your kids get the feeling that, in your eyes, they are pawns who exist to carry on your legacy and live up to your expectations — they'll most likely resent it, and you, for the rest of their lives.

I didn't mean to say that I am trying to turn my kids into a bunch of mini-mes. They all have their own personalities and talents. I teach them what I know and they can use that knowledge however they want. They have talents in areas that I have, and that I don't have. I encourage them either way.

From what you've written, I get the impression that you're in a truly loveless marriage. You don't respect her. Maybe you have good reason not to — I don't know. You certainly haven't said anything at all positive about her here. You imply that if there were no children involved, you would have parted ways a long time ago.

Yes, without the children I would have divorced her about 8-9 years ago. She's a good mother, and I respect her for that. She's also good at organising, crafts, gardening, and other things. I'm not saying she's a bad person. There's nothing wrong with the kind of person she is. I don't wish anything bad for her. She's just not the right person for me. If there's any resentment, it is not directed at my kids. There could be some directed at my wife since the concept of compromise seems to be foriegn to her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all, I can't agree more with what Kevin Delaney and JMeganSnow have said.

It seems to me, solely from what you have written, is that your problem is not that of a lack of shared activities with your wife, but the lack of a similar worldview or philosophy toward life. Do you think that even if you could share some similar activities with her that you would actually enjoy them, or would you still be dreaming about sharing these activities with someone else better suited to you? (This is not a rhetorical question. I really don't know what your answer would be to this one.)

About six months ago I broke up with someone who was a very wonderful guy - the best guy any woman could ask for - and we had a lot in common. But shared hobbies and interests, similarities, or "nice treatment" do not a romance make! (And it doesn't sound like you even have these things in your marriage now!) There has to be some fundamental and initial attraction to that person, physically and mentally. Is there or was there ever that attraction to your wife, or were you together simply because it was "comfortable" and she was "nice"? Were you ever passionate about her at some point in the past? If so, why? Can you (or can she) get that back?

God did not put your marriage together. YOU put the marriage together. I doubt as a Christian your wife would even agree with that one. So ask yourself - Is it worth it?

As for the most important issue to you - your kids. I come from a very "dysfunctional" background - my mother divorced my birth father, who was a drunk and a druggie, and gave me up for adoption because he didn't want to pay child support. He physically abused both of us. She is now in another marriage with a man who adopted me when I was five, and he was not a much better father. I turned out FINE. It all forced me to become a very responsible person early on in life. I am now a successful, responsible adult. Yes, I had a few years where I was bitter toward my parents for making the decisions they did. but who on this earth is not mad at their parents at some point in their life? If they are well-adjusted people, and you provide them with the proper tools for living life, they'll get over it eventually. As long as your children know that you love them, they should turn out fine.

You have some difficult decisions ahead of you. Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kevin Delaney wrote:

Forget about trying to figure out what "an Objectivist" would do. There are no hypothetical people here; this is about you, your situation, and the choice you're going to have to make (and live with). Objectivism has nothing to say about anyone's specific problems or decisions; a philosophy can offer you ethical principles, and others can share ideas and advice, but ultimately you're always responsible for making your own choices and living your own life.
Well, it does have something to say about guiding principles. The principles are your guide and that is a powerful foundation. It's not trivia. However, there is much latitude within those principles, and within that range thought and ingenuity are required.

Also, concerning your kids, I believe that offering your kids guidance, principles and education are vital. Teaching them how to think is probably the best thing you can do for them.

Yes, without the children I would have divorced her about 8-9 years ago. She's a good mother, and I respect her for that. She's also good at organising, crafts, gardening, and other things. I'm not saying she's a bad person. There's nothing wrong with the kind of person she is. I don't wish anything bad for her. She's just not the right person for me. If there's any resentment, it is not directed at my kids. There could be some directed at my wife since the concept of compromise seems to be foriegn to her.

Keep in mind that compromise is only right in areas where you agree on principle. Someone who doesn't compromise principles is actually doing something honorable, so long as those principles are rationally held.

Compromising in other areas is reasonable.

At the end of the day, this seems like a loveless marriage, and on those grounds it's probably over. I wish you the best of luck in this difficult situation.

Edited by Thales
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems to me, solely from what you have written, is that your problem is not that of a lack of shared activities with your wife, but the lack of a similar worldview or philosophy toward life. Do you think that even if you could share some similar activities with her that you would actually enjoy them, or would you still be dreaming about sharing these activities with someone else better suited to you?

I had to think about that one. I had just lumped her christianity as just another thing we didn't have in common, but it is a pretty big thing. I think that if we had the same interests that it would make things better. Right now we don't talk about our religious differences, which is her choice. I wouldn't mind telling her my views. So if we had other things in common that wouldn't change. I would be preoccupied with a lot of other things. Although there would be the church thing, and our differences of oppinion on how to raise the children. And that would be frustrating and annoying, but I don't think to the point that I'd want to divorce. Having shared interests and philosophies would be the ideal. If I could do it all over again, I would hold out for that.

Is there or was there ever that attraction to your wife, or were you together simply because it was "comfortable" and she was "nice"? Were you ever passionate about her at some point in the past? If so, why? Can you (or can she) get that back?

I think it was mostly because it was comfortable. We were late-teens when we started dating, and at that time in our lives I guess we were under the impression that the differences will "somehow" work out. Also at that time I figured my views on religion etc were kind of rare (in the bible belt) so I figured I'll stick with what was comfortable.

Thank you for your insight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I may have some misconceptions about rationality. I am new to the formal philosophy of Objectivism, though I feel I've been practicing much of it automatically in my life. With the above two quotes you seem to contradict yourself. Which is it? Are a parent's self-interest and his children's best interests are the same, or are parents and children independent entities?

Your interests and your childrens' interests are the same because you are independant entities. It is, ultimately, in their best interest for you to do what is in your best interest.

Remember that a person's "interests" are determined rationally: they are not whatever that person happens to feel that they want. If you will be truly better off single, then your kids will be better off, too, because until they move out, they share your fate. It's analogous to how I'm better off if my neighbors are rich and successful than if they are poor and struggling. If you are happier and free of undeserved constraints, you will be more productive, you will have more motivation, you will have zest for life, you will be a better role-model, you will treat your children better, and they will reciprocate.

Children can understand reason, too: if you explain to them why the divorce is necessary and demonstrate it they will not only understand, they will love and respect you more for doing the right thing even though it was also the hard thing.

I've told this story before, but maybe you can benefit from it: my mother never married my father. She dumped him when she found out she was pregnant, and she married my dad when I was seven. I was never bothered by this situation: as far as I was concerned that was just the way life should be. People should decide what is best for them long-term and then pursue it, even though it's hard.

It doesn't get much harder than a single mother trying to raise a child while she's working minimum wage and going to college full-time. What dilemma do you have that compares with that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Doc -

From your postings, you sound like a really nice guy. Too nice, perhaps.

Thanks. Compromise is good. I gave into some things hoping that she would too. I live in TX because she wants to. I can't stand the place. I agreed to go to church with her once/month. It turns out more like twice though (painful experience). I told her I'd go on vacations to places she wants to go in hopes that we can go where I'd like to go sometimes...........

Her activities are watching tv shows (I can't stand her shows & visa-versa), crafts (just not me), redecorating/remodelling the house (can I have some down time please?) and gardening (in 100 degree temps & 95% humidity). Her new hobbies in addition to these are church activities.

So is that how you have managed to maintain a state of "there's no arguing - just dull cohabitation" - by allowing her to call all of the shots and you just quietly acquiescing? What about what YOU want to do?

The fact that two people do not share the same explicit philosophy and have different interests does not, in and of itself, have to doom a marriage. There are plenty of Objectivists married to non-Objectivists and there are lots of happily married couples with significantly different interests. How many married guys in this world like to go hunting and fishing - and how often do they bring their wives along with them? I know a lady who takes a couple of trips a year with her sisters and/or girlfriends so that they can do things and go places that her husband has zero interest in participating in. When she and her husband take a trip together, it is primarily to enjoy each other's company with the specific activities on such trips being secondary.

I understand the need to compromise on where you live. But when it comes to the skiing and scuba diving - why does your wife need to be interested in such things? Don't you have some buddies who would be more than happy to tag along with you on a trip to do either? Or would your wife have some sort of problem with that? And why should her interest in crafts, remodeling and gardening be a problem for you - unless, of course, she is only interested in doing them if you are there to do the digging, fetching and lifting? And why on earth is it necessary for you to go to church with her? Will God not listen to her prayers unless she happens to be sitting next to a non-believer?

Obviously I know nothing more about you or your situation than what you write - but it strikes me that perhaps her desire to be in charge and your reluctance to set limits and stand up for yourself are as much to blame for the failed marriage as the lack of common interests. Would things be significantly different if you did have a few interests in common? I suspect if the answer is yes you would have discovered such interests a long time ago.

You ask:

Would an Objectivist, who realizes that he only has maybe 40 more years of life left, and then that's it - game over, divorce and seek out the kind of life he's always wanted, while still staying involved with his kids?
What makes you think you have maybe 40 years left? I hope you have at least that many - but you have no way of knowing that you do. What if you get hit by a bus in 5 years? Do you want the leitmotif of your life to have been: "Yes, Dear....anything you say, Dear."? Is that what your kids will want for you once they are grown up and old enough to understand the issues involved? Do you want your kids to have to live such a life once they are grown up?

I think the only appropriate reason for remaining in a miserable marriage for the sake of the kids is financial. If you are already having a struggle just to make ends meet - well, it is significantly more expensive to maintain two households than it is to maintain one. Staying together for a few more years to pool expenses so that your kids do not have to live in a bad neighborhood or attend an inadequate or dangerous public school might be a rational thing to do because of the potential consequences such things might have on their future and safety. But even in those instances it would be best if both parties were open about the fact that the "marriage" is little more than a roommate type of arrangement and actively made plans for their own individual futures once finances improve or the kids are old enough to be more on their own.

I'm not saying she's a bad person. There's nothing wrong with the kind of person she is. I don't wish anything bad for her. She's just not the right person for me.

To be able to say that indicates you are a kind, objective and level headed person - and you deserve a life where you can seek the happiness you desire. One suggestion if you do get a divorce: Your wife's needs and well being should not be a factor in your decision as to whether or not you decide to get a divorce. But if and when you do decide to get one, you do have, I think, a certain obligation, to put some thought and consideration for her needs in terms of how you present the divorce to her and how you go about it - and not just because she is the mother of your children.

From what you say, it very much sounds like you have given your wife reason to believe certain things about the state of your marriage that simply are not the case. I am not going to suggest that that you are "guilty of deception" or have been "living a lie" or anything of the sort. Sometimes people make it difficult or almost impossible for one to be candid and forthright with them - and, in such cases, they too share part of the blame for not being in the know. But whenever we sanction certain behavior on the part of the people in our lives, over time, whether we intend to or not, we are implicitly telling them that such behavior is ok. To suggest to someone for years and years that certain behavior and conditions are acceptable and then one day, out of the blue, tell them that things are not ok and never have been - well, it is entirely understandable that the person might feel betrayed and lied to. And that is certainly true in a sense. "Going along to get along" might make sense as a short term expedient - but all it really accomplishes is postpones the ultimate day of reckoning.

If there's any resentment, it is not directed at my kids. There could be some directed at my wife since the concept of compromise seems to be foriegn to her.

But why should she compromise when, by all indications, you have taught her that you will eventually go along with whatever she wants? Had you stood your ground on things way back when, is it possible that her behavior today might be different and perhaps your marriage might have a better chance? I bring this up for a reason - presumably, if you do get divorced, you will want to find a lady who is right for you and eventually marry her. No matter how wonderful she is, you are going to have conflicts and disagreements. The last thing you will want to do is make the same mistakes the second time around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are right about me not standing up for the things I want. But up to a point I think. As I said I have no desire to live in TX. But there is one nice thing about it, which is my job. It only pays average but it's a career that I would be able to find in only a very few other places in the country, and it is what I like doing. If I lived somewhere I like, I'd still be able to find some where I'd like to work. I guess that's what keeps me from going completely insane here. But that means that skiing or hiking in the mountains isn't just something I just go off and do on a saturday. It's a 1000 mile trip. Same with scuba diving. The water here is filth, so that's also a long trip to make it worth while. No, I don't need to do these things with her, but if I do them alone or with a friend then I'm gone for a week spending hundreds of dollars (or more to do it properly) while she's at home looking after 3 kids. I have gone on trips like this a few times, but it always comes with griping & guilt trips from her.

Getting a pilot's license costs around $4000 and when we're on a limited budget that's asking a lot from someone who doesn't support my interest in flying.

And why should her interest in crafts, remodeling and gardening be a problem for you - unless, of course, she is only interested in doing them if you are there to do the digging, fetching and lifting? And why on earth is it necessary for you to go to church with her? Will God not listen to her prayers unless she happens to be sitting next to a non-believer?

She is a type of person who feels naturally obligated to serving the family. If she could be a stay-at-home-mom and sit around the house doing house work and caring for the kids she would be happy. And she did that for a few years until our twins were old enough for school, but is getting back to working again (see I do make a stand on some things). So she's doing all this stuff, like remodelling the kids bedrooms and other housework (the crafts and gardening I leave to her) and playing sole parent when I do go on my occasional trips. It just makes it look bad for me if I insist on leaving the family or spending money on my hobbies too often. If we did have common interests then there wouldn't be this fight over where the money should go. I'm not saying I'd spend it all on fun. There would be a balance. But at least we would be living in a place where it wasn't so hard to do the things I like to do.

I think the only appropriate reason for remaining in a miserable marriage for the sake of the kids is financial. If you are already having a struggle just to make ends meet - well, it is significantly more expensive to maintain two households than it is to maintain one. Staying together for a few more years to pool expenses so that your kids do not have to live in a bad neighborhood or attend an inadequate or dangerous public school might be a rational thing to do because of the potential consequences such things might have on their future and safety. But even in those instances it would be best if both parties were open about the fact that the "marriage" is little more than a roommate type of arrangement and actively made plans for their own individual futures once finances improve or the kids are old enough to be more on their own.

The financial factor is a big one. Saving for college for 3 kids is a daunting task. Plus I had a consultation with a lawyer to get an idea of what kind of a custody battle I was in for, and how much it would cost. They said $15-20k. That's one of the reasons I encouraged her to go back to work. Divorce is expensive, and she'll need some income if I do divorce her.

To be able to say that indicates you are a kind, objective and level headed person - and you deserve a life where you can seek the happiness you desire. One suggestion if you do get a divorce: Your wife's needs and well being should not be a factor in your decision as to whether or not you decide to get a divorce. But if and when you do decide to get one, you do have, I think, a certain obligation, to put some thought and consideration for her needs in terms of how you present the divorce to her and how you go about it - and not just because she is the mother of your children.

Thanks. If I divorce, I plan on figuring out a fair division of property and a 50/50 custody arrangement. Yet I will build a strong legal case more in my favor to use if she doesn't accept this. Hopefully she'll go for fair rather than having both of us spend a lot on legal fees and putting the kids through a custody battle. Whether my wife wants to or not, she is capable of making a decent living. I am more concerned with the wellbeing of my children.

Even though there are reasons for accepting my life as it is so far, as I have mentioned above, I think you are right about me being too nice and compromising too much. I have recently been thinking that if I do not divorce, I am going to have to be more proactive in getting what I want out of life. Divorce or no divorce, I will get my pilot's license. And I will take more trips to do the things I like to do. I bet my kids would have fun coming too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The financial factor is a big one. Saving for college for 3 kids is a daunting task. Plus I had a consultation with a lawyer to get an idea of what kind of a custody battle I was in for, and how much it would cost. They said $15-20k. That's one of the reasons I encouraged her to go back to work. Divorce is expensive, and she'll need some income if I do divorce her.
That fee quote sounds low to me. I don't know where you are in TX, but major metro area legal fees are not cheap, particularly if you get into a REAL fight. You could easily burn through double that amount. If things are relatively amicable, it can save both of you a great deal of money. If you do decide to divorce, one of your more important tasks will be to convince your wife that this is the best course of action for the entire family and that getting into a huge battle will only hurt everyone (the kids included). In divorce, some people have a hard time understanding that the marital estate is finite. The more they spend paying lawyers to screw their spouse, the less there is for everyone to live on after all the screaming is finished.

Even though there are reasons for accepting my life as it is so far, as I have mentioned above, I think you are right about me being too nice and compromising too much. I have recently been thinking that if I do not divorce, I am going to have to be more proactive in getting what I want out of life. Divorce or no divorce, I will get my pilot's license. And I will take more trips to do the things I like to do. I bet my kids would have fun coming too.
My hunch is your kids would love that. You sound like a good father, so I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. However, the more you can do with them and the more you can interact with them in different situations, the stronger the bond with your kids will become.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity, why do you pick DrBaltar as a nickname? I assume that it's from the current TV series Battlestar Galatica (which I really enjoy). I ask because he's basically, judged objectively, an extreme villain, who initially unwittingly aids the Cylons in their almost complete destruction of humanity, but then afterwards, knowingly continues to assist them in their ongoing attempts to finish their goal because of his infatuation with a beautiful pseudo-woman-Cylon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity, why do you pick DrBaltar as a nickname? I assume that it's from the current TV series Battlestar Galatica (which I really enjoy). I ask because he's basically, judged objectively, an extreme villain, who initially unwittingly aids the Cylons in their almost complete destruction of humanity, but then afterwards, knowingly continues to assist them in their ongoing attempts to finish their goal because of his infatuation with a beautiful pseudo-woman-Cylon.

I wouldn't call him an extreme villain. He definately has issues though lol. As you say, his first mistake was unintentional. But from then on, he's trying to save his ass since he doesn't want to everyone to know that the almost complete destruction of humanity was his fault. He also makes a number of poor decisions, like not identifying the cylons he finds, and not investigating the source of the cylon in his head since that is a huge risk to himself (I was surprised to find that she really isn't a chip - I'm curious to know what the story is there). But I think that he believes that his relationship with #6 is constructive, since she appears at times to want to help him (I'm not sure yet why). He's not doing what he's doing out of pure evil - just self preservation.

I don't completely identify with his character, though there are things I like about him. He's a scientist. His thoughts on religion (at least in the first season, not sure about the 2nd). And he values himself first :dough: He just hasn't been as rational as I think I would have been. Could be because that beautiful pseudo-woman cylon keeps haunting him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Dr Baltar", As a dad, you've probably figured out that kids are extremely resilient when it comes to what adults would term "emotionally traumatic" events. Even when their immediate reaction to a loss is very strong, they are able to pick up and get on with life without looking back. So, in the long-run, I wouldn't worry about the kids. Indeed, the biggest question there is not how much they will miss you, but how much you will miss them.

A common theme from people who have been through a divorce is that they wish the process had gone better. That's why its important to educate yourself about the issues around it: not so that you decide to stick it out in an unhappy marriage, but so that you break it up in the most effective manner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...