The Two Types Of Classical Music

[Eternal]

I have a very eclectic taste when it comes to music, (except when it comes to rap or hip-hop). Whenever somebody asks me what type of music is my favorite, I usually say Classical - but then I have to explain that it's not the classical music they're thinking about. There's classical music, and then there's classical music. I could also say Soundtrack music is my favorite, but it wouldn't be quite true either. I guess a more precise description of my favorite music genre would be Classical Soundtrack, which brings me to the point.

I find majority of Classical music boring. Sure - there are some notable exceptions, but I couldn't care for most of it. If you ever tuned your radio-station to the Classical Music channel - you'll hear exactly what I hate, classical music that sounds as if it was made only for classical music's sake, and composer's enjoyment. It's either dull, or overly pompastic.

No - the music that I listen to (and this goes for all the genres, not only classical), needs to evoke emotions. It needs to be able to push me to tears, or make me feel like I'm part of an epic journey. The sort of music that makes the images from a movie come alive in my mind, even years after I've seen the movie. If you've ever heard anything by James Horner (Braveheart, A Beautiful Mind), or Hans Zimmer (The Gladiator, The Thin Red Line), then you know what I'm talking about.

Try watching any touching scene from a movie with a classical score, and then watch the same scene without the sound - and you'll see the haunting power of the 'soundrack' classical music. Sure, some people put down the type of music, as a cheap trick, but whatever it is about this particular trick, it does it for me.

To make an analogy - listening to the 'classical' classical music is like watching a painting of a landscape, while listening to the 'modern' classical music is like watching a painting of the same landscape, but now complete with a wizard battling a dragon, or a knight who's about to join a crusade leaving his princess behind.

[Inspector]

And I thought I was the only one.

Horner and Zimmer are my personal faves as well. (see especially Honer's score for Wrath of Khan) Other great soundtracks are the Unbreakable one, and the score from the Man With No Name Trilogy (by Ennio Morricone).

[Groovenstein]

I like Horner, John Williams, a lot of those guys. You should check out Dvorak's 9th. Listen to the whole thing. I can't believe how similar it sounds to Williams et al, and one's over a hundred years old.

[A.West]

"Classical" music is not all the same. I suggest that start with the few pieces you like, and build up an ability to hear themes good composers integrate into longer pieces. I like some kinds of "classical" music (most of which would be termed "Romantic" and not "Classical" by purists), and rarely listen to others. If there is a composer or two you like whose most famous pieces are played on Classical Radio, you might then explore their lesser-known pieces, or find composers with a similar style. If you like soundtrack-like music, then you might enjoy Tchaikovsky's ballet music for example. Chopin and Lizst are known for their ability to create emotionally evocative music, as was Rachmaninoff. Rimsky-Korsakoff's "Sheherazade" suite and a number of Richard Strauss' tone poems present entire stories in music.

[Thales]

To build on what West said, you'll also find that, as with any genre, most classical music is mediocre. You have to search out the gems. My recommendation is start with Beethoven and Mozart, widely considered the two best. Both of those composers have written innumerable great pieces.

You can hear Mozart in a movie, anyway. The movie Amadeus. Also, part of the Marriage of Figaro is played in the Shawshank Redemption, the part where Tim Robins character plays the Mozart record.

Regarding your main point, I agree. Movie scenes can bring music to life and visa versa.

[khaight]

And I thought I was the only one.

Horner and Zimmer are my personal faves as well. (see especially Honer's score for Wrath of Khan) Other great soundtracks are the Unbreakable one, and the score from the Man With No Name Trilogy (by Ennio Morricone).

Far from it. I've said many times that if Beethoven were alive today he'd be writing movie scores.

Zimmer is an excellent composer; some of his proteges (like James Newton Howard) are pretty good as well. I liked Morricone's score for THE MISSION. Another modern film composer I like a lot is the late Jerry Goldsmith. And John Williams, of course, but that almost goes without saying.

As an odd aside, I was once very surprised while listening to Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto to discover the famous "Right Stuff" theme from Bill Conti's film score sitting partway into the (if I recall correctly) first movement.

[Inspector]

And John Williams, of course, but that almost goes without saying.

Well, naturally.

[Styles2112]

A who didn't do many soundtracks, but I really (REALLY) enjoyed John Corigliano's soundtrack to "The Red Violin." So much so that I went out and sought other works by the feature violinist, Joshua Bell. For those who don't know it, both the movie and soundtrack are well worth the visit.

Edited January 19, 2006 by Styles2112

[arete1952]

Far from it. I've said many times that if Beethoven were alive today he'd be writing movie scores.

What reasons do you have for thinking he'd be writing film scores?

Very few first-rate classical composers have written for film: Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Copland and Corigliano come to mind. And film scores were/are a very small portion of their output. Beethoven might write a film score or two but he would have very little patience with the jerks in Hollywood. And he wouldn't work on any film he considered immoral...he was something of a prude.

As an odd aside, I was once very surprised while listening to Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto to discover the famous "Right Stuff" theme from Bill Conti's film score sitting partway into the (if I recall correctly) first movement.

No surprise here at all...Hollywood composers are constantly stealing from classical composers.

Edited May 27, 2006 by arete1952

[Hal]

What reasons do you have for thinking he'd be writing film scores?

Very few first-rate classical composers have written for film: Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Copland and Corigliano come to mind. And film scores were/are a very small portion of their output. Beethoven might write a film score or two but he would have very little patience with the jerks in Hollywood. And he wouldn't work on any film he considered immoral...he was something of a prude.

Isnt there an argument that films are the modern day equivalent of 17-19th century operas? I mean I doubt most great artists would want anything to do with Hollywood unless they desperately needed money, but theres plenty of smaller independent studios where they could get more creative control over their work. The thought of a maverick director like (eg) Orson Welles teaming up with a great composer is mouthwatering.

I'm not thinking of a big blockbuster that is 'soundtracked' by music like Jaws or Starwars, Im thinking of a piece that straddles the boundary between a film and a musical, where the music is an integral part of the story, like "All About Lily Chou Chou", if anyone's seen that. I dunno, maybe even something along the lines of Sin City. Definitely not a 'conventional' film with a deep, complex plot anyway - more something which is a piece of 'art first', and a 'good story' second (again, like classical opera).

edit: although having said that, Braveheart is a fantastic example of how music could/should be used in a conventional film.

Edited May 28, 2006 by Hal

[Lemuel]

Isnt there an argument that films are the modern day equivalent of 17-19th century operas?

If anything, film scores are closer to ballet than opera. The key component of opera is a libretto, songs sung by people playing characters who tell the story. In an opera, the libretto comes first, and the music complements the words and story. Ballet music is more independent than film scores, but the two can be closer in function. If a film score is good enough, it can stand on its own as art music - but this is rare.

In a ballet, the music and choreography complement each other, but the music can stand alone, especially given that a composer of a ballet knows that many choreographers will design different dances. The music never changes, though - The Nutcracker Suite will always sound the same (relatively), but will always look different. Ballet music must always sound "finished", while a lot of film scoring is simply textural in nature - no melodies or themes, just "color".

The thing to remember about film scores is that, while they are legitimate musical compositions, they don't necessarily qualify as "art music". (I use art music to describe what most people call "classical" - but being a purist, Classical music was only one period in music history. Besides, it sounds funny to say "modern classical music.")

Art music is an end in itself, while film music is a means to an end. Film scores (properly) are submissive to the action of film, setting the mood in ways that dialog or visual effects cannot. The more talented film composers will write complete pieces for characters or events, then later arrange them for the film (John Williams' success is attributable to this technique). Some - especailly those on a budget - will just write for the film, but on their own, the scores are boring, just a series of moods and soundscapes, totally submissive to the movie. (A lot of Hans Zimmer's work is like this.)

[bear in mind a lot of the above results from a more personal definition of "music" than has been explored in these Forums.]

[arete1952]

Isnt there an argument that films are the modern day equivalent of 17-19th century operas?

The modern day equivalent of 17th-19th century operas is contemporary opera!!!

As a composer of art music I have had dozens (hundreds???) of conversations with people who do not realize that there are literally thousands of men and women today writing art music such as symphonies, chamber music, opera, piano sonatas, etc., etc., etc.

(By the way, many thanks synthlord for your remarks re: 'modern classical music'...as you state, classical is a specific period in Western art music [1750-1825]...however when I tell people I am a composer, and they ask what type of music I write I say 'classical' unless I am speaking with someone who is 'in the know' about proper terminology...the proper term for today's 'classical' music being contemporary art music.)

Film scores are, in fact, a form of incidental music. Here is the Wikipedia definition of incidental music:

Incidental music is music in a play, television program, radio program or some other form not primarily musical. The term is less frequently applied to film music, with such music being referred to instead as the "film score" or "soundtrack".

Incidental music is often "background" music, and adds atmosphere to the action. It may also include pieces which will provide the main interest for the audience, for example overtures, or music played during scene changes. It may also be required in plays which have musicians performing on-stage.

The use of incidental music dates back at least as far as Greek drama. A number of classical composers have written incidental music for various plays, with the more famous examples including Ludwig van Beethoven's music for Egmont, Felix Mendelssohn's music for A Midsummer Night's Dream and Edvard Grieg's music for Henrik Ibsen's Peer Gynt. Parts of all of these are often performed in concerts outside the context of the play.

Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream music is a great example of incidental music. There is music played just before the first curtain (the overture), music played BETWEEN acts (the scherzo after the first act and the intermezzo after the second act), music played WHILE actors are speaking, various songs wherein Mendelssohn sets Shakespeare's text to music, the famous Wedding March, etc.

Mendelssohn's music for the play is AMAZING!! I recommend it highly.

About ten years I composed incidental music for a college production of Shakespeare's Tempest...a very enjoyable experience.

Edited May 28, 2006 by arete1952

[Hal]

If anything, film scores are closer to ballet than opera.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I dont know much about ballet, but I was under the impression that it was far less plot driven than opera and film. If I had to make a comparasion, I would probably be more inclinded to compare a ballet to a modern 'music video' than anything else.

art musicto describe what most people call "classical" - but being a purist, Classical music was only one period in music history. Besides, it sounds funny to say "modern classical music.")

Its a sidenote, but the term 'art music' is unnecessarily pretentious and fairly misleading, since it suggests that only one genre of music is (properly speaking) 'art'. However, there are works of 'popular music' (another term I hate) that have just as much artistic merit as a lot of 'classical' pieces - I'm thinking along the lines of John Coltrane, Godspeed You! Black Emporer, Dream Theatre and so on. If you just want to use the term 'art music' to describe anything that passes some degree of complexity (whatever that means in practice) regardless of what genre it happens to be, then thats fine with me. But in that case, it would be useful to have a new word to describe music that's in the same 'genre' as people like Beethoven and Rachmaninov, and the word 'classical' is as good as any, since thats what it means in popular use anyway.

Art music is an end in itself, while film music is a means to an end. Film scores (properly) are submissive to the action of film, setting the mood in ways that dialog or visual effects cannot

Then why are movie soundtrack albums so popular? I find something like Kitaro's Silk Road to be a beautiful stand-alone piece of music, and I havent even seen the series it was composed for. I assume that most people who buy film/tv soundtracks have similar views.

Also, what is the word "(properly)" doing there? Why does film music have to be the way that you claim it should be? How about Bollywood cinema, which often straddles the line between film and musical? (not that I'm holding up Bollywood as a great piece of music or cinema, heh. But theres a lot more that can be done with the medium of film than is done in most standard Hollywood films, which are ultimately just live-action novels)

As a composer of art music I have had dozens (hundreds???) of conversations with people who do not realize that there are literally thousands of men and women today writing art music such as symphonies, chamber music, opera, piano sonatas, etc., etc., etc.

Again, if the term 'contemporary art music' is to have meaning, it will include the work of Miles Davis, Thom Yorke, Yngwie Malmstein, and so on.

Your comments about 'incidental music' are well-taken though, and I largely agree.

Edited May 28, 2006 by Hal

[Lemuel]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I dont know much about ballet, but I was under the impression that it was far less plot driven than opera and film. If I had to make a comparasion, I would probably be more inclinded to compare a ballet to a modern 'music video' than anything else.

But it's closer to ballet than opera ... that's all I meant.

Its a sidenote, but the term 'art music' is unnecessarily pretentious and fairly misleading, since it suggests that only one genre of music is (properly speaking) 'art'.

It's a close approximation, and not at all pretentious - music for its own sake should be considered "art music," as opposed to "dance music" or a jingle. Music exists in many artistic forms. Just like the visual arts can be paintings, portraits, commercial imagery, and many other forms (including animation), music serves different purposes. I use the term "art" like I'd use it describing visual arts - there's a general use and an academic use.

All of it is creative, but little of it is "art music." What we're dealing with here is part of the lack of a conceptual vocabulary of music Ayn Rand mentioned in "Art and Cognition."

There are some who believe that "it's not music unless it fits these strict criteria", and there are those (like me) that use a very liberal definition of music, "sound organized in time", then make specific assessments regarding different types of music. Given that I use the term "music" loosely, it's necessary to classify types of it, but correctly. It's why I oppose the liberal use of "classical music" - it's misleading and incorrect.

Then why are movie soundtrack albums so popular?

Mostly because they remind a person of the movie. Since music inspires emotions, and that music is tied to a film, listening to the music puts a person into a similar emotional state as when they saw the film.

Like I said, the more talented composers will write complete pieces then arange them for the film; these are the soundtracks that stand alone, because the recordings are those of the original pieces. Sure, a person never exposed to Star Wars might just hear a neo-swing jazz tune when the Cantina band song is played; everyone else is immediately transported into a seedy bar full of aliens and robots. (Wait ... no robots. They don't serve "their kind.")

Also, what is the word "(properly)" doing there?

Again, one word meaning two things. I identify a difference between a "soundtrack" and a "musical." True, a musical has a soundtrack, but "Musical soundtrack" is redundant. There's a difference between Chicago and Backdraft, or The Sound of Music and Solaris.

So when I say a soundtrack (musical score of a dramatic film) is in its proper place is subservient to a film, I acknowledge that the purpose of the music serves as a means to an end, not an end in itself, such as in a musical. To illustrate this, imagine if Lucas had hired Williams to compose Star Wars before writing the film. It would have been a jumbled mess, a "ballet of images" meant to highlight the music. Dialogue would give way to melody, stunts would be choreographed to musical runs, etc. - totally backwards. We wouldn't care about the heroic journey of Luke Skywalker as much as we'd be forced to care about a pretty minor-key melody.