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Recent Protest About Cartoons

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I dont particularly want to defend Islam but assuming that you are talking about the 'sword verse', this has been refuted many many times over the last few years. The passage in question comes from a speech given by a general to his soldiers before a battle - it is not intended as a contextless statement about how to treat non-believers (compare to an American general telling his troops to 'kill all the germans' before a battle in WW2).

Anyway, you cant judge a religion by its holy books alone - you have to look at how these books are being interpreted by a particular religious community. The Old Testement of the Bible is horrific for instance, but you cant really use it to derive a picture of Christianity because everyone ignores it these days (or interprets it in a benign way).

Your point is well taken, although certain splinter sects. of Christianity here in the States keep a literal interpretation of those verses divorced from any sense of history (mostly due to the practice of Sola Scriptura, which is an erronius practice by the original Christian standard).

The problem is that most of the so-called "Moderates" in the islamic world are not doing much in the way of trying to defend their beliefs from these fundamentalists, which leads me to the conclusion that they are probably not the majority in that region.

Whether the Qu'ran specifies that the "Convert by the Sword" speech is true [i do find it disturbing that a religion that claims to be peaceful would put a military leader ahead of a man of peace (Mohammad/Christ)], most of these terrorists take that saying literally as a call for all muslims to be in a state of Jihad until the world is subsumed under their ideology.

I do find it interesting to note that the "72 virgins" thing originated with an old Islamic cult. from the Middle Ages called the Hashshasheen, which was founded on the principle that Islam supposedly needed to be clensed of the so-called untrue believers within it. What was also interesting is how this cult was originally dealt with. Genghis Khan and his troops played seige warfare, crushed them, took their leader out of their temple and kicked him to death. Apparently it rid the Middle East of a cancer for 5 or 6 centuries.

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The problem is that most of the so-called "Moderates" in the islamic world are not doing much in the way of trying to defend their beliefs from these fundamentalists, which leads me to the conclusion that they are probably not the majority in that region.
I agree that "moderate" Muslims aren't likely the majority in many regions. Whether they are the majority or not, demonstrations like these make it unlikely that moderates will raise a finger to oppose the more radical elements. Someone called this the Muslim "Crystal Nacht" and they weren't far off.
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I didnt imply 'people' to mean 'the readers of this internet forum' - I was talking about the world in general.
I know that, and I was referring to the fact that Americans were not rioting in the streets, calling for the execution of The Queen because of Steve Bell's cartoons (years and years of them). I am disputing your claim that "anybody else would have acted that way". It's not true, false, not so and does not correspond to reality. Although it has occasionally happened that leftists riot to prevent a rally by Nazis, though I don't know of any riots and murders caused by publication of Nazi material -- it's more an immediate "stop this rally now" reaction, and it is extremely limited.
although given this thread on THE FORUM, who knows
It is beyond any rational doubt that Objectivism rejects censorship. You are under no obligation to read porn: if you don't want to, don't do it. That is pretty elementary application of Objectivist ethics, but I grant you that some people have trouble with that.
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There are some protests going on in the middle east about a set of cartoons that were published in European newspapers......They don't appear any more offensive than something Cox and Forkum might draw.

I agree.

But the Muslim fundies are offended as no one there has the right to criticize their beloved prophet in any way. So they manifest this anger and outrage the way any uncivilized group of animals might- by rioting and killing.

Personally, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Muslims in the "eastern world". They stood by while thousands of innocent Americans were cold-bloodedly slaughtered on September 11th. So if they wish to slaughter each other over cartoons, then I'd just as soon let them.

Edited by Yes
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Just a quick comment.

Over here in the UK we have had our 'Baying mob' howling for blood and promising death to the EU and Denmark as seen here .

Shame I couldn't find the photo that I was looking for but I distinctly remember the placard at the london protest that said,"Death to Free Speech". it must take an enormous amount of evasion in the protestor's mind to seriously wave that about :P

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Just a quick comment.

Over here in the UK we have had our 'Baying mob' howling for blood and promising death to the EU and Denmark as seen here .

Shame I couldn't find the photo that I was looking for but I distinctly remember the placard at the london protest that said,"Death to Free Speech". it must take an enormous amount of evasion in the protestor's mind to seriously wave that about :P

:P The sheer idiocy of these people is actually starting to make me wonder if there really are two realities.

Quote of the Moment: "I have always made one prayer to God, a very short one. Here it is: "My God, make our enemies very ridiculous!" God has granted it to me." (Voltaire)

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Since the cartoons were published last September, why is this coming to a head only now? It seems to me that Fatah may have decide to stir up a ruckus about the cartoons to distract attention from their loss in the Palestinian elections.

Instead of apologizing for the cartoons of Muhammad, we should drown the Muslims in a sea of caricatures of Muhammad. If they see enough of them, then they may eventually begin to regard them as being as harmless as they really are.

Needless to say, the arguments against the cartoons are completely irrational. Even if one accepted the premise that worshiping Muhammad instead of Allah is a terrible sin (idolatry), one cannot reasonably argue that the cartoons tend to cause such worship. On the contrary, saying that Muhammad cannot be depicted tends to place him on the same level as God.

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... we should drown the Muslims in a sea of caricatures of Muhammad.

I am not an artist, but I have an idea for a cartoon :) :

A pig dressed in a robe is standing on its hind legs. In its right front hoof, it holds a staff topped by a crescent moon. It is surrounded by Arabs who are listening to it. It says "... and Simon ... uh, Allah says you shall not eat pork. Also do not make pictures of me, your prophet.".

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That's actually pretty good JRS. Can you draw?

In Malaysia, the government has shut down a newspaper for publishing the cartoons.

"Internal Security Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi today ordered Sarawak Tribune's publication permit to be suspended indefinitely with immediate effect for reproducing controversial caricatures of Prophet Mohammed on February 4," it said.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp.../192406/1/.html

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A pig dressed in a robe is standing on its hind legs. In its right front hoof, it holds a staff topped by a crescent moon. It is surrounded by Arabs who are listening to it. It says "... and Simon ... uh, Allah says you shall not eat pork. Also do not make pictures of me, your prophet.".

That's actually pretty good JRS. Can you draw?

No, I cannot draw well enough to do justice to such an idea. I was hoping that someone else who can draw would like the idea enough to draw it.

Actually the cartoons which are being used as an excuse for these riots are pretty mild. I was trying to think of one which would be offensive enough to Muslims to justify some protest. This one implies that Muhammad's revelations are phony (which, of course, they are) and compares him to a pig which is insulting. And it provides an alternate explanation of the ban on depicting Muhammad.

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The consensus among the conservative blogosphere is that the cartoon outcry was created by Danish Mullahs who drew the most offensive cartoons (never published) themselves and used it to ignite the protest months after the original cartoons were published. The goal was to enact censorship and detour Danish right-wing politicians after their initial political efforts failed.

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_02...html#1139559700

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/...-used-fake.html

AP caption: "An unidentified Kenyan woman demonstrates in Nairobi, Kenya Friday Feb. 10, 2006."

post-1-1139723740_thumb.jpg

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The axiom of identity is a Western instrument of oppression! Didn'tcha know?

Voltaire had these people figured out 2 centuries before we encountered them. This woman is actually living up to the quote by the French Liberal Philosopher of the enlightment that I have as part of my signature. (Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities). So we see the absurdity here, and we see the resulting atrocities of embassies being burnt, why isn't everyone putting together the fact that Islamicism is the culprit? Answer, altruism is itself an absurdity that results in the atrocity of inaction in the sight of destruction.

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Someone finally gets it!

Italian minister puts Mohammad cartoon on T-shirts

(Please excuse the slant ... it's Reuters)

"We have to put an end to this story that we can talk to these people. They only want to humiliate people. Full stop. And what are we becoming? The civilization of melted butter?" Calderoli said.

! ! ! B R A V I S S I M O ! ! !

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Hooray! I wish we had political leaders like Calderoli in the United States. The proper response to the crazed Islamic mobs in the Middle East is to show our contempt for their silly religious notions. As a demonstration of their courage, patriotic Americans should start wearing T-shirts, hats and thongs with the Mohammad cartoon on them. Better yet, our troops in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait, etc. should have the Mohammad cartoon proudly displayed on their uniforms.

The only way we're going to win the war against the Arabs is to show we don't give a damn about Islam or anything else they worship.

As Alex Epstein of the Ayn Rand Institute wrote, "The proper response to Islamists and their supporters is to identify them as our ideological and political enemies--and dispense justice accordingly. In the case of our militant enemies, we must kill or demoralize them--especially those regimes that support terrorism and fuel the Islamist movement; as for the rest, we must politically ignore them and intellectually discredit them, while proudly arguing for the superiority of Americanism." http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=New...ws_iv_ctrl=1021

The more they see how much we dislike their ridiculous Prophet, the more demoralized they'll become, and the sooner they'll give up fighting us.

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Better yet, our troops in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait, etc. should have the Mohammad cartoon proudly displayed on their uniforms.

Umm. NO. The military uniform is NOT a proper place for a joke. Nor would it have any effect on the moral of the extremist terrorists. In fact...it would probably put our soldiers at more of a risk. It would actually help the terrorist cause and recruiting.

The only way we're going to win the war against the Arabs is to show we don't give a damn about Islam or anything else they worship.

I seem to think that that's what's caused wars throughout history (in one form or another). Somehow, I don't see it as the 'key' to winning. Personally, I think the key to winning the "war" is to convince the few rational facultied people over there that the only way to get US out of there is for them to get their compatriots to stop bombing their own people in an attempt to kill us. It is the responsibility of the the country's people to take control for themselves. So far, very little of them have shown that initiative or understanding (there are some, and I do enjoy reading the articles and stories where the people have turned in terrorists, because they're sick of it...and they SHOULD be.)

The more they see how much we dislike their ridiculous Prophet, the more demoralized they'll become, and the sooner they'll give up fighting us.

Again, they already know that....trust me it hasn't helped. Funny that since this has happened there have been MORE terrorist attacks, and recruiting for the terrorists has gone up. Still, WE struggle to get anybody in uniform over here. Somewhat ironic, I think.

And one of the funny points about EXTREMISM is that those folk believe in their cause/hate so purely that they will not give up until they, or we, are dead (I'd, personally, prefer them). They will not "give up" fighting us. That suggests rational faculty on their part...and you'd give them too much credit at that.

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Umm. NO. The military uniform is NOT a proper place for a joke. Nor would it have any effect on the moral of the extremist terrorists. In fact...it would probably put our soldiers at more of a risk. It would actually help the terrorist cause and recruiting.

If that is the way you feel, then wouldn't it make sense for you to discourage all cartoons of the Prophet --including those promoted by the Italian minister? And if the Italian minister is helping "the terrorist cause and recruiting," maybe our Dept. of Defense should look into it.

As for me, I agree with ARI's Alex Epstein who favors demoralizing our enemies. Currently our fiercest and most visible enemies are in Iraq. And the Americans who are closest to them are our soldiers. Showing Muhammad as a terrorist is not a joke. It is reality. And showing his true nature to our enemies and to the populations that support them is bound to have a demoralizing effect. And if a cartoon on a soldier's helmut makes someone angry enough to pick up a rifle or a bomb, I say bring 'em on. Those guys need to be exterminated anyway.

Hooray for Italy!

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If that is the way you feel, then wouldn't it make sense for you to discourage all cartoons of the Prophet --including those promoted by the Italian minister? And if the Italian minister is helping "the terrorist cause and recruiting," maybe our Dept. of Defense should look into it.

Perhaps they should, that doesn't change the fact that it is an innappropriate item to put on military clothing. If we do that, then we can put WHATEVER we want on our uniforms. (In which case, mine would be covered in "Calvin and Hobbes.") If civilians CHOOSE (key word here) to wear such an item, that is up to them. One should not be FORCED to wear a political cartoon. That would oppression (of the strangest kind).

As for me, I agree with ARI's Alex Epstein who favors demoralizing our enemies. Currently our fiercest and most visible enemies are in Iraq. And the Americans who are closest to them are our soldiers. Showing Muhammad as a terrorist is not a joke. It is reality. And showing his true nature to our enemies and to the populations that support them is bound to have a demoralizing effect. And if a cartoon on a soldier's helmut makes someone angry enough to pick up a rifle or a bomb, I say bring 'em on. Those guys need to be exterminated anyway.

I agree with demoralizing them. However moving the ENTIRE Islamic culture to the extremist side only gives THEM more ammo. The terrorists would be MORE demoralized if they realized they DID NOT have the support of their fellow country-men. Thus such "insults" only give them more fuel for their hate, and possibly give them more people to join their cause, all over a subjective view of a "character" in a religion. I will agree that the terrorists need to be exterminated, though, I rather not see our soldiers, my friends, and co-workers, killed or hurt in the process.

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