Patriotism In The USA

[brit2006]

I like Britain. I also like the USA. In fact I love the USA. I'm moving to New York as soon as possible.

However, one thing that puts me off sometimes is patriotism in America. Like I said above I don't think that there is anything wrong with loving the country you were born into. However, many Americans I have spoke to and even many people who talk about America on this forum are patriotic to the point of collectivism.

They are always using the word "we" and how "We can kick everyones butts" and how "We are the greatest nation on Earth" and how "Our economy is better than yours" etc. When people say things like this my immediate respose in my head is to think that what they are saying maybe true, however the way they say it, in that tribal kind of "us and them" attitude, makes me sick.

This puts me off going to America. This form of collectivism is alive and well in America and if its not in the form of patriotism, its in the form of religion. In Europe, both the collectivist kinds of religion (barring Islam) and patriotism are disappearing as time goes by. Of course, Europe has a worse kind of collectivism, that of the welfare state, and so America wins on any count.

The reason I post this is to question the language that many Objectivists use. For example, I could have typed the last paragraph as:

"This puts me off moving to your country as your collectivism is rife in the form of patriotism and religion. We, in Europe laugh at patriotism and religion, both of which are disappearing. Of course we have a worse kind of collectivism, the welfare state, yet you have increasing statism also."

The use of the words "we" and "you" as well as the general tone, degenerates what I am saying into a kind of tribal oppposition to America. Yet, I have heard many Americans talk in a similar manner and tone.

Is it just me who has noticed these collectivist tendancies in many Americans and Objectivists?

Edited February 4, 2006 by brit2006

[softwareNerd]

Haven't you seen the many threads about how depressing everything is... how the US is doing so many wrong things... how neither political party is worth voting for... how every year gets worse... and so on? [i'm not going to search for links, because you can hardly miss them if you go through the Politics, Law or Current Events sub-forum.]

I am not denying what you've observed. Just pointing out that the reality is more complex than simple pro-Americanism.

Incidentally, this complexity is not limited to forum-members. Many "men on the street" will readily tell you that the U.S. is great; and yet, if one steers the conversation right, one can get most to say that the U.S. is "full of itself", or "bossing people around"... and stuff of that type.

Sometimes, when contemplating something that the US is doing really badly, it's easy to lose focus and let the moral equivalence in a restricted area feel like moral equivalence in a larger area, as in: "we are no better than Iran in this tiny issue...", becoming a thought like: "we are no better than Iran". On the other hand, when contemplating a narrow point of difference, it is easy to lose focus and come to: "we are completely different".

[JMeganSnow]

Use of "we" is not necessarily tribalist or collectivist; it means that you voluntarily identify very strongly with a group. Most of the American patriots that I know don't do this because they were born here, they do it because they love America for what she is and what she has done, even though she's let herself go more than a little at this point.

[dondigitalia]

There's a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism is the collectivist notion that ones nation of birth has intrinsic value. Patriotism is the objective recognition of one's country as a value. A lot of times, they are united into a package-deal, and called "patriotism," but there's a HUGE difference between the two.

I don't deny that there are some American nationalists, but more are patriotic. In some parts of the country, such as where I live, the majority of people are actually anti-American.

If I was from Europe, I'd probably laugh at patriotism too. Not having grown up in a country that warrants such a strong value-judgment, the idea would seem kind of silly and, well, nationalistic.

Edited February 4, 2006 by dondigitalia

[Unconquered]

I like Britain. I also like the USA. In fact I love the USA. I'm moving to New York as soon as possible.

However, one thing that puts me off sometimes is patriotism in America.

Well, New York City is chock full of lefty liberals, and the city is hardly at the forefront of the view that the Islamic terrorists should be erased from the earth, despite being the primary victim of 9/11 - so if that's your destination, you needn't worry.

[brit2006]

If I was from Europe, I'd probably laugh at patriotism too. Not having grown up in a country that warrants such a strong value-judgment, the idea would seem kind of silly and, well, nationalistic.

This is exactly the kind of stupidity that I am afraid of encountering in America.

Does any other American here think that this comment is stupid?

[StarBuck]

This is exactly the kind of stupidity that I am afraid of encountering in America.

Does any other American here think that this comment is stupid?

I find it ill advised.

Edited February 4, 2006 by StarBuck

[dondigitalia]

This is exactly the kind of stupidity that I am afraid of encountering in America.

Does any other American here think that this comment is stupid?

Why? Because I say European countries are not a value on the same level as America? They aren't: to me. It's only a stupid comment if you sever it from a valuer and regard it as a statement about intrinsic value.

Edited February 4, 2006 by dondigitalia

[Felix]

Okay, here's my opinion on this.

As far as I see it you are only responsible for your own actions and can therefore only be proud or ashamed of your own actions. Any idea of being proud of the land where you live or being ashamed of it is just sick. You have nothing to do with it. You were born in America or moved there. What kind of an achievement is that supposed to be?

One can be proud of accepting the values America was founded on, which is something you can personally do. But you can't be proud of being an American. It's nonsense.

I live in a country where I am told that I have to hate myself because there once was an Austrian named Hitler and where they are running "Du bist Deutschland" (You are Germany) - campaigns.

Maybe that's why I learned very early not to accept responsibility for the history of the country I happen to live in.

[dondigitalia]

One can be proud of accepting the values America was founded on, which is something you can personally do. But you can't be proud of being an American. It's nonsense.

I agree, unless you have immigrated here from another country, because that amounts to an achievement. Holding America as a very high value is different than taking pride in being born in America, though. The latter view is nationalistic, not patriotic.

I live in a country where I am told that I have to hate myself because there once was an Austrian named Hitler and where they are running "Du bist Deutschland" (You are Germany) - campaigns.

Maybe that's why I learned very early not to accept responsibility for the history of the country I happen to live in.

And rejecting that idea is something you can take pride in.

[brit2006]

I have an American girlfriend who is very patriotic. Recently we had two discussions which showed to me the extent of America's patriotism that turns to stupidity. (Note: I love America and think rational patriotism is a good thing, yet here are examples of how patriotism turns to stupidity in America.)

1. She thought that America are the best at sports in the world because they win the most Olympic medals. I told her that if that was true China is the second best at sports in the world. These two statements are nonsense because the average American is fat and unhealthy and the average Chinese person does not have the economic resources to devote so much time to sports training. The reason America and China win medals is because they have hundreds of millions of people to possibly be in their teams. If you look at medals per person, Australia wins. This is not surprising - the average Australian is healthy, fit and athletic and obviously better at sports.

2. Inventions. Henry Ford invented the car, my girlfriend said. I told her it was Karl Benz, a German. She wouldn't believe me. Another one she disagreed with me on was the web. I told her the web was invented by Tim Burners-Lee, a Brit, and she wouldn't believe me!?

These are just two recent conversations. The stupidity astounds me. I fear it.

[dondigitalia]

1. I agree with the gist of what you say on that one, although I don't really like referring to entire countries as being good at sports, since it is individual people, not nations which compete.

2. Abundance of inventions are a direct result of freedom. In the latter half of the 19th century, America was, hands down, the most inventive country in the world, as can be expected from any near lasseiz-faire country. Since then, however, America has veered away from it's roots, leaving a much narrower margin between it and other countries, in both freedom and invention. Although America is still the freest country in the world, I don't think it's by wide enough of a margin to yield any significant difference in inventiveness. As far as citing one or two individual inventions as evidence of the inventive superiority or inferiority of any country as opposed to another, though, it doesn't really hold water.

Edited to remove floating bbcode and unnecessary quote.

Edited February 5, 2006 by dondigitalia

[FeatherFall]

Although America is still the freest country in the world...

Do you really think so? Why? I don't have enough information to judge, but if you look at this report, the US is not the most economically free. She's tied for 9th with Australia and New Zealand.

Edited February 5, 2006 by FeatherFall

[dondigitalia]

Do you really think so? Why? I don't have enough information to judge, but if you look at this report, the US is not the most economically free. She's tied for 9th with Australia and New Zealand.

I'm not an economist, so I'm not going to attempt to validate our #9 economic ranking, but I don't claim that the US is the most economically free--I have known that Hong Kong was the winner there for a while.

There are other factors besides economic, however, in determining which is the freest country in general. For instance, Singapore is rated as number two in that report, but it's illegal to possess chewing gum there (which is just one of their more ridiculous anti-freedom laws), so I would hardly call it a free country.

[EC]

I told her the web was invented by Tim Burners-Lee, a Brit, and she wouldn't believe me!?

The web was invented by the U.S Defense Department in the 1970's for communication in case of a nuclear attack on the nation.

By the way, I love America. Despite it's faults and creeping statism, it is still the most moral and free nation in the history of the world. And I am proud to say that.

[brit2006]

The web was invented by the U.S Defense Department in the 1970's for communication in case of a nuclear attack on the nation.

Stupidity continues to both astound and irritate. Would anyone like to correct EC?

[dondigitalia]

Stupidity continues to both astound and irritate. Would anyone like to correct EC?

Accusations of stupidity continue to both astound and irritate. Stupidity is a lack of intelligence, not a lack of accurate information--which, in this case, is what EC is demonstrating.

Rather than continuing to rally for support from other forum-readers when someone says something you disagree with, why not present your own case.

The internet was developed by the US Department of Defense. The World Wide Web, the multimedia system that turned the internet into a mass medium, was invented by Tim Berners-Lee.

[Captain Nate]

I agree, unless you have immigrated here from another country, because that amounts to an achievement. Holding America as a very high value is different than taking pride in being born in America, though. The latter view is nationalistic, not patriotic.

I disagree, because one can just as easily reject America as they can accept it. By saying someone not born here can somehow achieve something special by coming here that a born-American cannot seems mind boggling to me. One of the great values of America is the fact that you can become American by both birth and choice, and you can also leave (or at the very least, denounce and reject) America by choice.

[dondigitalia]

I disagree, because one can just as easily reject America as they can accept it. By saying someone not born here can somehow achieve something special by coming here that a born-American cannot seems mind boggling to me. One of the great values of America is the fact that you can become American by both birth and choice, and you can also leave (or at the very least, denounce and reject) America by choice.

In picking up and moving across the globe in search of a better life, they have achieved something special. And the country they move to need not be America--a person who fled Soviet Russia and began a new life in England would be in the same position where pride is concerned. The key difference between moving here and being born here is that, in the latter case, there was no chosen action which landed a person here.

I was very specific in saying that ones place of birth should not be a source of pride. Acknowledging an agreement with the principles upon which one's place of birth was built, however, might be. They're two different things.

[Captain Nate]

I was very specific in saying that ones place of birth should not be a source of pride.

Perhaps you fail to understand the distinction some of us are making. We are not proud of our country because it was where we were born. We are proud of it because of what it is, regardless of where were were born.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Captain Nate

[dondigitalia]

Perhaps you fail to understand the distinction some of us are making. We are not proud of our country because it was where we were born. We are proud of it because of what it is, regardless of where were were born.

No, you're dropping the context of the comment with which you disagreed. It was in response to Felix's post about it being silly to be proud of being born somewhere. He also thought that one couldn't be proud of having moved to another country, with which I disagreed.

Edited February 5, 2006 by dondigitalia

[Felix]

I agree, unless you have immigrated here from another country, because that amounts to an achievement.

Hm. I don't think so. As I said, the achievement is in the acceptance of certain values, not in moving to a certain country. It's what you think and live by that counts, not where you happen to live.

[dondigitalia]

Hm. I don't think so. As I said, the achievement is in the acceptance of certain values, not in moving to a certain country. It's what you think and live by that counts, not where you happen to live.

Achievement is the successful pursuit of values, which includes the acceptance of them. If a person identifies life in another country as a value, decides to pursue it, overcomes obstacles and succeeds, that's something to be very proud of. The same goes for achieving any value whatsoever, with the degree of pride differing depending on context.

Note: I'm using pride here to mean something different than the virtue of Pride. Here it is an acknoweldgement and congratulations of ones efficacy. I mean it to be something similar to self-esteem, but with the emphasis on "I did it," rather than, "I can do it."

[Felix]

Achievement is the successful pursuit of values, which includes the acceptance of them. If a person identifies life in another country as a value, decides to pursue it, overcomes obstacles and succeeds, that's something to be very proud of. The same goes for achieving any value whatsoever, with the degree of pride differing depending on context.

No.

The value of moving into another country could be:

• lower taxes
  
• lower cost of living
  
• a beautiful beach
  
• well ... you get the point
  

This can all be of value without accepting the values that country was initially founded on.

That is a completely different issue.

[dondigitalia]

Who cares about what the values are, as long as they are real values? All I'm saying is that one can be proud of having achieved them. Any value-achievement is something to be proud of--some achievements more than others.