The Morality of Alcohol

[nimble]

For some reason I have this odd problem with my girlfriend drinking. I do not think it is moral to get drunk, and I do not like her to get drunk. I do not drink, and I expect her not to. My problem comes, because I think that I am being unfair. I would like some insight to this situation if anyone can help.

Thanks

Nimble

[Dufresne]

For some reason I have this odd problem with my girlfriend drinking. I do not think it is moral to get drunk, and I do not like her to get drunk. I do not drink, and I expect her not to. My problem comes, because I think that I am being unfair. I would like some insight to this situation if anyone can help.

Do you know why she drinks? In what situations? How regularly? How much?

[nimble]

Yes. She doesn't drink frequently. It is usually party and casual situations. And when she does drink its just enough to get drunk. I don't think she tries to reach the alcohol poisoning point.

[Dufresne]

You wrote that you considered it immoral to get drunk. Do you consider your girlfriend's behavior immoral? And what makes you think you are treating her unfair?

[Hal]

Alcohol isnt immoral, nor is getting drunk. However alcohol, like most things, can certainly be used in an immoral fashion. Are her actions liable to harm her in any way? What are her reasons for drinking; is it simply to have a good time on top of an already fufilling life, or is she basing her existence around parties and escapism? And so on.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Hal

[softwareNerd]

Have you discussed this with her and asked why she gets drunk?

[nimble]

I appreciate all the replies. I have a few questions though. I thought it would be immoral to get drunk because living in and interpreting reality is a man's primary obligation and I don't think you can do that drunk. So how is it not immoral? Secondly, if I approach her with my concern how should I put it, I don't know how I would say something like that without souding crazy (she's not an Objectivist, but has several qualities I admire).

Thanks

Nimble

[iouswuoibev]

Alcohol isnt immoral, nor is getting drunk.

I challenge that statement. It depends on why you got drunk. If you pursued drunkenness as a goal and that is the reason you drink, then it is immoral. Who would want to interfere with their consciousness in such a way? Being drunk is like taking a break from reality itself. It dims your awareness and makes you uninhibited, or to put it another way, irresponsible. I suspect most people who try to get drunk are trying to relinquish responsibility for their actions; anything from acts of consciousness to words spoken. If anyone feels the desire to get drunk in any situation, they should strongly question why they feel that way, by doing some introspection.

Now on the other hand, being drunk as an accident of drinking something you enjoy is not immoral, providing you recognise that drunkenness to any degree is a non-value and that you then aim to drink within moderation.

On another note, I've observed that many people who attend parties, particularly younger people, tend to drink to excess. Why do you suppose this is? And what, do you suppose, would happen if alchohol and any similar drug ceased to exist? Would they still go to these parties? Would they enjoy them as much?

[Inspector]

getting drunk. [is not immoral]

I would challenge that statement.

[iouswuoibev]

I appreciate all the replies. I have a few questions though. I thought it would be immoral to get drunk because living in and interpreting reality is a man's primary obligation and I don't think you can do that drunk. So how is it not immoral?

Absolutely, I'd like to know that as well.

Secondly, if I approach her with my concern how should I put it, I don't know how I would say something like that without souding crazy (she's not an Objectivist, but has several qualities I admire).

Without sounding crazy? What does that mean? Are you crazy? If not how can you sound crazy? Presumably you mean you will be saying something out of the ordinary. Well, if that bothers her, the error is hers. Be wary of the desire to conform to other people's arbitrary standards of what is normal. Go only by your own rational judgement in deciding what is acceptable to say and what is not, not by how it will be received.

How should you go about stating your objection? Well, first you have to be certain that you really do have an objection, and by the fact that you've posted this thread you aren't certain, yet. You also need to decide whether her getting drunk is something you can accept if she continues to do it. How she reacts to your objection may tell you something new about her, or it may be what you already expected. If and when you do have an objection to make, then it's simple, you just say it. Don't dumb down or sugarcoat your words to try and make them "fit in", just speak clearly and rationally. e.g. here's what you might say:

"I want you to know that I like you a lot, for many reasons (you could state what those reasons are). However, I object to the fact that you choose to get drunk. I'm curious as to why you do it. Perhaps you can't answer that offhand. If that's the case, I think you should consider asking yourself why. I myself can't see any value in doing it, because... [and here you need to know why you think getting drunk is immoral, and say it]."

Now suppose she reacts by looking at you as if you were crazy, and perhaps says words to that effect. The question to ask is: Who is in the right? Is it her, with her absorbed arbitrary social standards grating against the presence of someone who speaks "abnormally"? Or are you right, by speaking with clarity and confidence, and showing a respect for her intelligence and her ability to address your argument as rationally as you put it forward? Well, who is right?

And if that is her response, you can either dump her then and there, but more likely you don't want to dismiss the other values she has to offer so rashly. You need to know how deeply the attitude that made her react that way is entrenched in her personality. If she reacted that way, she certainly would not be 100% independant in thought or 100% rational. You need to find out what percentage she is independant and rational (metaphorically speaking). And then use reason to figure out where to go from there.

Anyway, I went off on a bit of a tangent, but I hope that answers your question.

EDIT: Inserted quotation marks where appropriate.

Edited March 29, 2005 by iouswuoibev

[nimble]

Thank you... I find that very helpful.

[TomL]

I would put forth that not only is getting drunk immoral, but so is drinking alcohol, except where indicated for medical reasons (i.e. as an antidote to ethelyne glycol, for example).

Please read OPAR Chapter 2, the section titled "The Primary Choice as the Choice to Focus or Not". To an Objectivist, the primary choice -- the one that enables life for man qua man is the choice to focus one's mind, as much as possible, for as long as possible.

Now, anyone in today's society, and certainly your girlfriend, knows the effect that alcohol has on one's consciousness. It makes it impossible to increase or maintain one's focus. Anyone who attempts to counter this fact is met with a mountain of evidence so large its unfathomable how they can even try.

Further, one's time in this life is limited. To purposely waste hours or even minutes on intentionally sabotaging one's ability to live and experience life is a both evasive and a travesty.

Detractors of my position will say its not necessary to be 100% focused as much as possible 24 hours a day; one would collapse from exhaustion. I agree with that; one does need to sleep. But while one is awake, one should make every effort to live life as fully as possible (that is, through the capacity of one's mine) if one is to attempt to live 100% morally. Anything less is a detriment to the life one could have had if they had made the choice to focus rather than drink.

This also ties in directly to the idea that "Virtue is Practical" OPAR Chapter 9, whichs will show how the rationalizations of alcohol drinkers are another form of the ideal/practical dichotomy.

It is moral to use alcohol morally as a mild sedative, when one needs sleep and has trouble getting to sleep. However, this is easily used as an excuse for intoxication so should be scrutinized carefully. There are other means (sleeping pills) which cannot be used as such an excuse.

Once you reach your own decision on the morality of drinking, you'll also want to think about what a moral difference between yourself and your romantic partner means. This thread on relationships with religious people will help with that.

[Nxixcxk]

I don't think she tries to reach the alcohol poisoning point.

Alcohol is poisoning and more unwanted junk the liver has to filter. Look at any brain scan of someone who's drunk or been drinking, and it's sad; the brain is completely distorted .

I challenge that statement. It depends on why you got drunk. If you pursued drunkenness as a goal and that is the reason you drink, then it is immoral. Who would want to interfere with their consciousness in such a way? Being drunk is like taking a break from reality itself. It dims your awareness and makes you uninhibited, or to put it another way, irresponsible. I suspect most people who try to get drunk are trying to relinquish responsibility for their actions; anything from acts of consciousness to words spoken. If anyone feels the desire to get drunk in any situation, they should strongly question why they feel that way, by doing some introspection.

Well said.

When you start to question her as to why she drinks, she'll probably say something along the lines of "to have a good time."

But just exactly what is it about drinking that allows someone to have a good time?

If she drinks to relax, why does she choose this method over others--such as running or meditation or breathing exercises?

[Tom Robinson]

Moderate drinking carries negligible health risks and offers some benefits to the cardio-vascular system. There is nothing immoral or irrational about relaxing with an adult beverage among friends. In fact, it is one of the great rites of Western Civilization.

[plaintext]

here's what you might say:

"I want you to know that I like you a lot, for many reasons (you could state what those reasons are). However, I object to the fact that you choose to get drunk. I'm curious as to why you do it.

You know her best and know how you talk.

"Were you a bit drunk at the party last week?"

"Do you like getting just slightly drunk?"

"why?"

Listen first.

[iouswuoibev]

Moderate drinking carries negligible health risks and offers some benefits to the cardio-vascular system.

I'd like to know from where you heard that.

There is nothing immoral or irrational about relaxing with an adult beverage among friends. In fact, it is one of the great rites of Western Civilization.

I hope your latter statement isn't your only justification of the former.

It is also a customary western tradition to smoke a cigar when a man becomes a father. I don't recognise such "customs" as having any merit. If you can rationalize having one cigar on that irrational basis, you can rationalize having any amount of cigars at anytime.

I'm not sure whether I agree with TomL or not that it is always immoral; that would depend on how profound an effect alcohol has on one's consciousness when drank in moderation, and without actually getting to the stage of being drunk. I can drink a shot of whiskey, for instance, without feeling any different at all. If the effect on consciousness is so negligable as to be unnoticable, and you happen to like the taste of the drink, and you aren't in a situation where the effects of alcohol could be a risk, then there's nothing immoral about it.

Here's a question for you all: suppose there was a drink that tasted just like alcohol, but it had the opposite effects on your brain. That is, it makes you more alert, focused, aware of your surroundings and inner state, and in control. Would it be as immoral to get intoxicated on such a substance, as drinking alcohol? Is the intereference with consciousness always wrong, period? Or is it only when the effects are detrimental to your well-being?

I've already formed my conclusion but I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.

[Inspector]

Here's a question for you all: suppose there was a drink that tasted just like alcohol, but it had the opposite effects on your brain. That is, it makes you more alert, focused, aware of your surroundings and inner state, and in control. Would it be as immoral to get intoxicated on such a substance, as drinking alcohol?

Um, coffee?

[Bryan]

Um, coffee?

I drink an immoral amount of coffee, meaning that I drink an amount that has a negative effect on my life.

I think a better example would be anti-depressants.

[Inspector]

I drink an immoral amount of coffee, meaning that I drink an amount that has a negative effect on my life.

Ah, but I think that makes it a perfect example. There is a moral and an immoral amount of coffee that one can drink. I think it is the same with alcohol.

I have also heard that small to moderate amounts of red wine are very good for the heart. I'd drink it, but 1) it's too expensive and 2) I hate the taste; it all tastes like cough medecine to me.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Inspector

[Rex Little]

(In response to Tom Robinson's post of 3-29-05, 12:58 PM)

I'd like to know from where you heard that.

The cardio benefits of moderate drinking (a glass of wine a day or so) are well known. This link (http://www.seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Health/5-02-15Wine4Women.htm) came from a quick Google search, and I'm sure there are lots of other sources.

[iouswuoibev]

Um, coffee?

Coffee has never provided me with more control. Quite the opposite actually; I feel a powerful urge to pace around and be physically active, even when I don't have the energy for it.

[dondigitalia]

How much coffee are you drinking? I'm not a big coffee drinker, but I do usually start my day with a Diet Coke. And I definitely do find that it makes me more alert, focused, and helps break me out of my morning grogginess.

Granted, Diet Coke doesn't have nearly as much caffeine as coffee.

[Bryan]

How much coffee are you drinking? I'm not a big coffee drinker, but I do usually start my day with a Diet Coke. And I definitely do find that it makes me more alert, focused, and helps break me out of my morning grogginess.

Granted, Diet Coke doesn't have nearly as much caffeine as coffee.

I start my day with one 16 cup pot for the to break out of my morning groginess, and I drink another one through the course of the day.

[Bryan]

Ah, but I think that makes it a perfect example. There is a moral and an immoral amount of coffee that one can drink. I think it is the same with alcohol.

I agree with you on both counts. With alcohol, the slope is just a lot more slippery. What's the moral amount of drinks to have in a sitting? One? Two? Three? Eighteen? For most people it's hard to tell.

[iouswuoibev]

How much coffee are you drinking?

Normally I don't drink any. The few times I've drank it (and other caffienated drinks) I either feel nothing, or I end up feeling like a puppet propelled by strings. I experience a physical difference but I can't sit still long enough to engage in any mental activities.