Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Regarding The Pro-immigration Protests

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Originally posted by David from Truth, Justice, and the American Way,

Finally, a public protest I can get behind.

My stance is more radical the the protesters though: as I wrote on the ObjectivismOnline forum, I am against the very idea of citizenship:

[The]question is: "is there justification for a class of privileges and protections that should be granted to a certain class of inhabitants of a country?" I don't believe there is any such basis outside of a welfare state and anti-immigration policies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This issue is one where the conservative right shows its true fascist colors. It also demonstrates that the President is not of their mold. I'm glad Kennedy and McCain have got together to try to keep the extreme right from hurting immigrants too much.

The right wing hide behind the idea of "rule of law". The attitude they take is that the rule of law is so important that it trumps all discussion of the rightness of the particular law. That is bogus. By that reasoning it was right to return runaway slaves to their "owners".

The other fake reason put forth by right wing commentators is that this is about border security. This is not just false, but exactly opposite of the truth. The borders are what they are today precisely because honest people are denied the right to enter. A well-implemented "amnesty" and "guest-worker program" is exactly the right prescription for a more secure border.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The right wing hide behind the idea of "rule of law". The attitude they take is that the rule of law is so important that it trumps all discussion of the rightness of the particular law. That is bogus. By that reasoning it was right to return runaway slaves to their "owners".

I disagree, to not follow the law is to promote anarchy. Who is to chose which laws to follow and which to not follow? There is a stop sign on my street that serves no purpose, would you say that I shouldn't stop at it?

You have to follow the law no matter what it is. You can challenge the law in court but while the law is in effect you must follow it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then, do you agree that slaves should be sent back to their masters?

Edited to add: It is not anarchy to disobey laws that are extremely and egregiously evil. I stop an every stupid "stop sign". If you say that you are unable to judge what laws are egregiously evil and which are not, then let's talk about that.

Edited by softwareNerd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I live in southern california and the main problem that people here have with illegal immigrants is that more and more emergency rooms are closing due to an overflow of uninsured patients who must be treated due to state law, a sentiment that is quite disturbing to those individuals in southern california who pay for their own health insurance and experience an interruption in the treatment they rightly deserve and have paid for. In addition, public schools across the state of california constantly face pressure from militant pro immigration groups to provide spanish speaking only students with bilingual education. Such education would not hold learning english as a priority but rather two parallel courses of education in every publich school in california would be taught, one in english and the other in spanish. Such discourse does not facilitate integration of a minority population into the prevalent culture in which it resides, especially when said group chooses deliberately to speak another language. A guest worker program, however, would be a good idea in facilitating the integration of the millions of illegal immigrants into American society particularly in acting as an impetus for said immigrants to pay thier fair share of taxes and thus paying for the services that they consume. So, while I concur that the response in the legislature to this issue has been extraneous and damaging, one must consider the effects of illegal immigration before one denounces the sentiment of this recent movement to rectify the immigration issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no such thing as a "fair share" of taxes: all you've done is identify the irrationality of the welfare state. The first argument that should be coming to these people's minds is eliminating "treat regardless of ability to pay" laws, eliminating "free" public school and mandatory bilingual education. It is completely irrelevant if Spanish speakers are integrated into the English-speaking majority -- it is their right to speak Spanish or Hindi or whatever the heck they want. On their own dime. I've considered the sentiments, and I reject the idea that in their minds it has anything to do with the welfare state, since if it did, they would be protesting the welfare state, not Mexican workers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"There is no such thing as a "fair share" of taxes": all you've done is identify the irrationality of the welfare state." The first argument that should be coming to these people's minds is eliminating "treat regardless of ability to pay" laws, eliminating "free" public school and mandatory bilingual education. It is completely irrelevant if Spanish speakers are integrated into the English-speaking majority -- it is their right to speak Spanish or Hindi or whatever the heck they want. On their own dime. I've considered the sentiments, and I reject the idea that in their minds it has anything to do with the welfare state, since if it did, they would be protesting the welfare state, not Mexican workers."

"There is no such thing as a "fair share" of taxes"

By "fair share" I meant in regards to our society's current tax structure and status of government entitlement spending, as I agree that in an ideal, free market society, as has been discussed in earlier threads, involuntary taxes would be much less prevalent if not completely nonexistent.

"It is completely irrelevant if Spanish speakers are integrated into the English-speaking majority -- it is their right to speak Spanish or Hindi or whatever the heck they want. On their own dime."

I apologize if I did not make my point clear on this, I have no issue with what language people choose to speak so long as I am not paying for them be educated by a different standard than would myself or my children, but that brings up the whole aspect of the immorality of a publicly funded educational system in the first place which is a subject for another thread. In summation, I concur with your counter argument on this point.

I did not post my earlier statement in order to justify the sentiment of those in favor of the anti illegal immigration movement but rather to supply information regarding the effect and, or percieved affect illegal immigration has had on those people living in southern california, the area where this debate is most applicable. I apologize for any misconceptions drawn due to my choice of wording, I am new to this form of discourse and still have trouble voicing my thoughts clearly, however I seek to improve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's quite understandable that people are upset when they see illegal immigrants not paying taxes, while using the government's social services. This is yet another reason to drastically increase the number of people who can immigrate to the US legally, particularly from Mexico.

US laws have priced the poor out of private healthcare. In that context, to the extent that I do not blame a poor person for being poor, almost to that same extent I do not blame them for using what government healthcare they can. As for schooling, the government has priced most middle class people out of private schooling; the poor hardly stand a chance.

Politicians use the fair share argument when it suits them. If we want real fair share, let's take only the fair share from the top 5% of the population. Commentators demonize groups by painting them as feeding off you; they fail to point out that -- if one buys that argument -- then most of us are feeding off a tiny group of people.

The Lou Dobbs'es and O'Reilly's of the world like to make the issue sound so complicated, when the solutions are really simple. What the government needs to do is to amend the law to allow many more people to come to the US to work. Once one begins with this starting point as a principle, the solutions become easy. Practically, the place to start is with Mexican immigrants.

If I were given to wishful thinking, I'd say let them come in on work-permits that do not take any taxes from them and do not provide them with any schools and health care, but free their school and health-care providers from all government regulation. However, more realistically, let them come in, tax them like ordinary citizens; even charge them a fee that will cover processing charges, border policing and related overheads. Have the work-permits depend on their working. It's already the way work-permit rules are designed.

It is a disgrace for honest people to be hiding from the law, with productiveness as their primary crime.

PS: I apologize for any curtness in my posts in this thread. It's one of the few topics where I have a hard time being unemotional about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did not post my earlier statement in order to justify the sentiment of those in favor of the anti illegal immigration movement but rather to supply information regarding the effect and, or percieved affect illegal immigration has had on those people living in southern california, the area where this debate is most applicable. I apologize for any misconceptions drawn due to my choice of wording, I am new to this form of discourse and still have trouble voicing my thoughts clearly, however I seek to improve
Going in that direction, I suggest that identifying the real problem is the best move. Illegal immigrants don't cause higher taxes, taxation causes taxes. I haven't seen a single argument pointing to the deleterious effects of foreigners that doesn't reduce to one single fact: the government taxes us so that it can provide is with the good stuff of life "for free". The proper protest is not against foreigners, but against taxes. This is one of those things about Objectivism that sets it aside from other philosophies, that we don't focus on the short-term problem but on the ultimate cause of the problem. In this case, that is taxation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is one other cause for the anti-immigration sentiment that has not been pointed out yet: the xenophobia of some of the neoconservatives. I was struck by this recently when researching the subject, coming across the following op-ed by Pat Buchanan:

http://www.buchanan.org/pa-97-0701.html

At first, it seems like he's arguing against multiculturalism. It soon becomes clear that he favors a collective control of the ethnic/cultural makeup of the country by government decree.

When did we Americans vote for a revolution to overturn our ethnic and racial balances? ... [former]American leaders sought to strengthen our European ethnic core. They believed it vital to the unity and survival of the nation.

Notice the anti-intellectual nature of Buchanan's argument. He is not arguing for the importance of upholding American ideas, but to maintain the traditional American "ethnic balance." For him, many of the social problems in the world reduce not to corrupt philosophical principles, but to the trivial fact that two allegedly incompatible ethnic groups live in close proximity.

One can only hope this raw bigotry only affects a small portion of the anti-immigration crowd, and that the rest are committing more honest errors. I'm not so sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...