What to tell religious parents

[AwakeAndFree]

I just want to share with you an observation that might be relevant: I noticed that even when people disagree with you, they argue less and the tension drops when they know exactly what you think and why.

If you open the discussion, and go down to the essentials, you won't be bothered by the trivia. If you parents know you're an atheist, and that you think the very notion of God is arbitrary, they won't bother you with the details of going to Church, or praying. Unless they will have the courage to challange you on the most abstract level - you will have earned a degree of peace and freedom.

This goes BTW not just with the established religions, but also with such religions as Marxism, Socialism, Nationalism and Environmentalism.

[pvtmorriscsa]

If you parents know you're an atheist, and that you think the very notion of God is arbitrary, they won't bother you with the details of going to Church, or praying.

Howdy All,

I returned the other day from a Memorial Day Trip to my mothers house. Or as I like to think of it, my weekend with the Taliban. My mother is a devout, hard-core, right-wing, Republichristian. As is my Step-Father, my sister, her husband, and damn near every other person I came into contact with the whole time I was down there.

Hell Christianity has even invaded the politics. They are currently having a republichristian primary, and there were signs up everywhere. They all had the same basic message, "I believe in God, and I am more conservative than my challenger."

I gave up the whole religon thing some time ago, being more of an angnostic, but then I discovered that A = A. That and I am my own justification for existence. So I basically pitched the whole god concept out the window.

My family however seems to think I am just going through a phase. Although I was shocked to see that I was never asked to give a blessing over a meal. Which had been a habitual annoyance in all my past visits. I mean really how many times do you have to say no, when they ask you to say grace?

My mother has even pulled the "I am not a good mother, because my son is going to hell"

At one point I straight up told her that if she needed to believe in jesus to get through her day, that was fine. I however just believe in me.

I swear they just don't get it. It is as if they cannot fathom there not being a god.

Anyway, thanks for the Rant.

[Charles T.]

" I'm getting more and more curious: what does it mean to "go through the temple"? Is it some horrible ceremony or "rite"?"

Since no one answered me, I did a little research.

All I can say is, you ex-mormons must be SO HAPPY to be rid of all that. Good for you.

[Betsy]

At one point I straight up told her that if she needed to believe in jesus to get through her day, that was fine.  I however just believe in me.

I swear they just don't get it.

The odds are they never will get it, but that's OK.

Just so long as you get it.

[BreathofLife]

I just want to share with you an observation that might be relevant: I noticed that even when people disagree with you, they argue less and the tension drops when they know exactly what you think and why.

Very true. This seems to be the case with my parents. I don't get confrontational with them (my dad more than my mom, I have a hard time believing that my mother really believes in religions at all), but my dad will use that scolding tone of voice when it comes to my views on religion. He was raised around that nonsense (he was an altar boy when he was a kid) so I can see how he hangs tight to those ties but he has no arguments. The religion issue wasn't too much of a problem because my family is not very religious at all, at least not in the sense that we ever went to church or anything but I think my dad still believes in it. They never forced it on me though, which i appreciate, they just let me have my space and I took care of myself. He won't argue with me when I talk about Atheism though because I think he knows that he has no valid reasons- he knows that it's faith he's hanging onto, he just hasn't accepted that there is nothing beyond reason. I'm pretty sure I could make him see the problem in religion and the reason why I'm an atheist but I just don't care that much.

[oaktree]

you will probably be bored [...going to church...]but you will also be reminded that it's great to be an atheist since we don't have the burden of such boredom always on our shoulders

And if one does it only very occassionally and focusses on the message it can be interesting --- like reading Kant.

[oldsalt]

It has been interesting to read the posts here. My own path to atheism was such that by the time I became an atheist there was sigh of relief from my family and friends.

I grew up in the Church of Christ, a fundamentalist church that believes the bible is literally true. I've always taken ideas very seriously and I took the ideas I learned in church and Sunday school very seriously. The result was that I was deemed "disruptive" in Sunday school because of my incessent questions. The questions came from all of the contradictions, of course. I was told I had no tact because I pointed out the inherent hypocracy involved. I was called a devil by one teacher because I suggested that God was mean. I was tossed out of Sunday school at the age of 12 because other kids were beginning to think as well, or, as they put it, because I was a disruptive influence.

I could never grasp the faith bit. I couldn't figure out why God, who created a lawful universe and gave man reason, would demand faith. On my own, I finally came to believe in a kind of Spinozian pantheism. Once I got there, I realized that God was superfluous and I became an atheist. My family was relieved not to be under the gun of questions for which they had no answers. They never again tried to discuss the subject with me. I was simply an ironhead who couldn't be talked to.

I am curious if any of you have had to face the accusation that you have can no morals if you have no religion. My family sees this as a contradiction and they can't seem to understand how I define my ethics or manage to be so strict in my morals without a gun to my head. I've tried to explain my premises, but I do so to faces composed of blank stares. (Not all of them are like this, of course. My father was the one who taught me to think for myself with his Socratic way of answering my questions with questions.) One cousin claims I'm a closet Christian! HA!

[stephen_speicher]

I am curious if any of you have had to face the accusation that you have can no morals if you have no religion.

That is the standard mantra of religious intellectuals. They simply cannot grasp that the nature of reality is a much more profound source than that which happens to emanate from a religious fantasy book. To many, man's nature is rather base. Without religious values to tame us, they claim, we would club all the other men and drag the women to our caves. Such is the nature of the secular beast!

Only once in my entire life have I ever convinced a religious ethicist of the real-world basis of morality. He was a young Hasidic Jew who shed his ritualistic garb and went to work for IBM. God love him!

[oldsalt]

Wow! You convinced a Hasidic Jew? That's a hell of an accomplishment, Stephen. I'm impressed.

[stephen_speicher]

Wow!  You convinced a Hasidic Jew?

He was an interesting guy.

Here is a short write-up I once made about this, as part of a larger post.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was young, growing up in Brooklyn, I met an Hasidic Jew,

Don, who I liked very much. Don seemed to represent a great deal

that I had recently fought hard (intellectually and emotionally)

to overcome; he was part of a mystic sect, tied to God, where the

family and group were more important than the individual. Yet,

to me, Don had an active mind, and though he dressed like an

ancient Rabbi, he spoke to me with a more modern tongue. I never

intended to 'convert' Don, to Objectivism, but we spoke of ideas

incessantly, and there were times when Don would yell and scream,

objecting to the views I held. Sometimes he laughed at my ideas,

and even mocked them, as I did his. I learned from Don that in

the Hasidic writings it is said:

"My beard and my sidelocks and my Hasidic clothing

serve as a guard and shield from sin and obscenity."

One day I was approached by someone I didn't recognize, but when

he opened his mouth, I was stunned. Don had shed his beard, his

sidelocks, his Hasidic clothing, and announced that he left his

home and was on his own. I gave him a copy of Atlas Shrugged, and

the last I heard of Don he was a very successful researcher at IBM.

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[stephen_speicher]

[Edit: Sorry for the double post. I deleted the second copy.]

Edited June 9, 2004 by stephen_speicher

[janie]

I am curious if any of you have had to face the accusation that you have can no morals if you have no religion

LOL. This literally just happened to me! I am at my office and two of my co-workers (one of them happens to be my religious sister) were kidding around about stealing office supplies and I said something jokingly about being "morally superior" because I never accidentally take home pens, or some such nonsense and my Co-Worker immediatley says "you can't be morally superior, you're an atheist, you don't have any morals!" As I am trying to respond to this statement my sister chimes in with "she isn't really an atheist, she still believes in the church, this is just a phase."

I had to laugh and shake my head. I am just glad that she finally stopped trying to make me go to church.

BTW- Great story Stephen!

[F*ckCommunism]

One day I was approached by someone I didn't recognize, but when

he opened his mouth, I was stunned. Don had shed his beard, his

sidelocks, his Hasidic clothing, and announced that he left his

home and was on his own. I gave him a copy of Atlas Shrugged, and

the last I heard of Don he was a very successful researcher at IBM.

Heh!

Handing out A.S reminds me of when mormons give out books of mormon in an effort to bring light to the world....

on another note, i have had many deep discussion with my mormon mother about how i am much more moral now that i am no longer a member than when i was a practicing mormon... and i am kind or not based on the facts, not because some god expects me to be nice...

[AshRyan]

" I'm getting more and more curious: what does it mean to "go through the temple"? Is it some horrible ceremony or "rite"?"

Since no one answered me, I did a little research.

All I can say is, you ex-mormons must be SO HAPPY to be rid of all that.  Good for you.

Charles,

Sorry I didn't see your first post sooner. I can still give you my take on it if you'd like. Just PM me. But basically, yes--it is some horrible ceremony or "rite."

You might also want to tell me what your research turned up, if only for verification from someone who's seen it first-hand. If you weren't careful, you may have just stumbled accross the typical anti-Mormon stuff which is put out by other evangelical Christians (the Baptists especially hate the Mormons) which pretty much just consists of factually inaccurate smears.

[AshRyan]

Heh!

Handing out A.S  reminds me of when mormons give out books of mormon in an effort to bring light to the world....

In a way, but here's the difference: when an Objectivist gives someone a copy of Atlas Shrugged, they are counting on the person's reason; when a Mormon gives someone a copy of the Book of Mormon (or any Christian gives out a Bible), they are counting on the person's faith.

[Hannibal]

I think I'm going to just...not tell my parents. They may figure it out on their own some day, but if I told them, my dad would freak out.

[Betsy]

I think I'm going to just...not tell my parents.  They may figure it out on their own some day, but if I told them, my dad would freak out.

If they ask, you just might say "It's something I have been seriously thinking about but would rather not discuss right now." You're entitled.

[AshRyan]

I think I'm going to just...not tell my parents.  They may figure it out on their own some day, but if I told them, my dad would freak out.

Maybe--but if he loves you, he'll get over it. (And if he doesn't, well, it's better that you know it.)

[Halsey]

I'd be hard up to find a single religious member of my family. However, my family does celebrate the holidays such as christmas and easter. I'm trying to escape these holidays, as I myself am not religious and truly want to escape all influences religion has put on me. I even try to avoid phrases like "god forbid" or "god bless you." I'm perfectly open and tell my family why I'm not interested in these anciently religious holidays, but those I speak to say it's just all in fun with no real religious significance. It's true that these holidays seem to be a tradition that goes beyond religion, and they give reason for families to get together. However, I don't think in this case that the ends justify the means. Is it ethical to use an innately religious holiday for nonreligious reasons like family bonding? I think there are enough nonreligious holidays, so we could ultimately phase out the ancient religious ones that are losing their religious significance.

[stephen_speicher]

I'd be hard up to find a single religious member of my family.  However, my family does celebrate the holidays such as christmas and easter.  I'm trying to escape these holidays, as I myself am not religious and truly want to escape all influences religion has put on me.  I even try to avoid phrases like "god forbid" or "god bless you."  I'm perfectly open and tell my family why I'm not interested in these anciently religious holidays, but those I speak to say it's just all in fun with no real religious significance.  It's true that these holidays seem to be a tradition that goes beyond religion, and they give reason for families to get together.  However, I don't think in this case that the ends justify the means.  Is it ethical to use an innately religious holiday for nonreligious reasons like family bonding?  I think there are enough nonreligious holidays, so we could ultimately phase out the ancient religious ones that are losing their religious significance.

I guess then you would not like the annual Speicher Christmas tree, replete with homemade ornaments as well as those from friends, and ARI. I think I understand your concern about religion, but I suspect that you grant it too much. Christmas is a wonderful time of the year, and it has a spirit that I think all Objectivists could embrace. You might want to read Peikoff's op-ed on Christmas.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5182

[Thoyd Loki]

from Halsey

Is it ethical to use an innately religious holiday for nonreligious reasons like family bonding? I think there are enough nonreligious holidays, so we could ultimately phase out the ancient religious ones that are losing their religious significance.

I prefer to think of it this way. The christians took the pagan celebration of the winter solstice and replaced it with their own meaning. They even moved their "savior's" birthday by several months so they could get rid of this festival that wouldn't go away. So, if you want to think of it that way, it was a this worldly celebration to begin with, and you are celebrating it in that way.

Besides, Christmas has plenty that is non-christian about it. Actually, the way it is celebrated in America, there is little at all christian about it!

[matteomastrom]

There does not have to be a conflict.

I go with my family to church quite often and have become convinced that the praise songs they sing are all about me.

I admit that I did not create the universe (for nothing can in fact be created or destroyed). But I do have the power to choose my own future, and that is the only power any being can ever have.

So next time your parents ask you whether you believe in God, say, "Aye, I believe in myself and worship me, too!"

[BlueWind]

Maybe--but if he loves you, he'll get over it. (And if he doesn't, well, it's better that you know it.)

Or maybe he would become militant and try to "save his son's soul" by re-converting him, because he loves him so much. That could get to be a real ugly mess.

Remember the Exorcist? "The power of Christ compels you!" If you don't remember the Exorcist, here's a 30 second recap as enacted by bunnies.

Dealing with the religious is like

[Betsy]

Dealing with the religious is like 

It doesn't have to be. We have many choices as to whether we will deal with other people and how. If you try to CHANGE others, you WILL usually end up

If you accept that they are what they are and that THEY are in control of their lives and their ideas, you can agree to disagree about religion and other differences. That leaves everyone free to concentrate on the real values you may have in common.

[scottkursk]

My dad was a rocket scientist. Literally. He was largely agnostic but one thing he hated was atheists. One of his jobs in his term in Air Force intlligence was routing out gay people and communists. This was in the 1950's BTW. He later got advanced EE degrees and worked for NASA etc. A ton of the people he worked with were atheists and he really didn't like them. He was never really much for oraginezed religion like my mom was. My mom was an Irish protestant so I was raised somewhat Orange.

My soon to be inlaws however are very active Catholics. A former member or the Orange Order joinging a Catholic family is a bit silly. You know what, since I was what they described as being "very Christian" (not in an insulting way, mainly I really love their daughter and treat her as my top value) they were OK with it. I really didn't want to mention my athiesm to them beause I understandably thought they'd be very neagitve. It was far from it.

I've never officialy come out of the godless closet with my mom and family but I figure if my in-laws could deal with it, my family can. So, on my 1 year plan is to fully come out to my mom and sister I care about. The other sister I don't care for is very religious and don't value her opinions.

My mom and sister have both read Atlas Shrugged and both somewhat benefited from it though they still hold on to their old traditions. So, my family knows how I think and to be honest, I really don't care what they think in the whole great grand universal cheme of things. Now my wife to be has since the 2nd date that I'm an atheist and she doesn't have a problem with it.

So, I really don't feel the obsessive need to come out to my family since they are pretty aware of what I think and who I am. The relief I would feel from the act of "confession" to them is based on the belief that their approval makes or breaks me. It's really similar to the feeling of my gay friends. Some officially came out some just ignore it and get on with their life. I personally chose to get on with my life.