"Relative Truths"

[Qwertz]

"Until you've visited a place where everything they do, how they deal with each other, everything, like Africa or the Middle East, you can't understand that there are relative truths."

"All truth is a presentation, and no presentation is objective, so no truth is objective."

"You cannot conflate science and perception."

"When I don't see the ball, it doesn't exist."

"You need to go read Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and some Einstein."

(I assume the Einstein reference is to relativity, since Einstein rejected the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics.)

Just a few choice phrases, spoken over the course of less that 5 minutes, by a die-hard lib who came to visit for the weekend. Oh joy, this is going to be fun.

-Q

Edit: Silly shift key, never works when I want it to. If someone (a mod?) could fix the topic capitalization for me, I'd appreciate it.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Qwertz

[Groovenstein]

"When I don't see the ball, it doesn't exist."

"So all I have to do to get rid of you is turn around?"

[Qwertz]

"So all I have to do to get rid of you is turn around?"

If I'd been a meaner person, I'd have thrown the 6-ball at her (the ball in question) and asked her why she'd ducked, but unfortunately she's a guest of my aunt, and I can't be mean to her all weekend. What's a guy to do?

-Q

[Hal]

What is a 'lib'? (I assume its either liberal or libertarian?)

Edited April 8, 2006 by Hal

[Qwertz]

The former. Though I don't know exactly if that's the right word. Although, this morning she announced that, if she met him, she would have sex with Bill Clinton, as he is "the most facinating man alive today."

-Q

[Felix]

Hm. She could try getting an internship.

[Qwertz]

Now I'm being dragged out to see Thank You for Smoking at the local (very) art house theatre. I'll post a review in the movie forum afterwards.

-Q

[Qwertz]

Review of Thank You For Smoking is up in the movies thread.

On a wholly unrelated note, she asked me today if I liked the 'idea' of communism: the 'idea' of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need,' to which I tried to reply that communism practiced always left no one of ability, to which she replied that she wasn't asking about practice, but the idea of it. Of course I tried to explain that the theory-practice dichotomy doesn't exist, whereupon she insisted that I was evading the question and would I please think about it for a half-hour before trying to respond. Obviously I didn't need the half-hour, but she never followed up a half-hour later, so I have yet to tell her that her question is unanswerable on her terms.

She also wanted to know how I felt when I saw poor people working hard and not making much, with sick children and no health insurance, and then looked at a trust fundie who never has to work and doesn't do anything. I tried to tell her that a) the one had nothing to do with the other given her scenario, and that it is impossible to make an emotional (or any kind of) judgment about situations stripped of their context. Again, I was declared an evader of the question, and entreated to not tell her what I thought of the situation but what I felt.

Though she's really starting to aggrivate me, I find her way of thinking facinating, in much the way a physiologist finds a gross medical deformity facinating - I want to poke it and probe it and figure out a way to combat it in the future.

-Q

[softwareNerd]

...how I felt when I saw poor people working hard and not making much, with sick children and no health insurance, and then looked at a trust fundie who never has to work and doesn't do anything...

Here's some of what I feel... top-of-mind...

• great hard-working poor guy
  
• wasteful trust-fundie idiot
  
• must have had great dad who worked hard
  
• dad knew how to make money, but not how to make son responsible
  
• stupid hard-working guy for voting for trust-fundie sponsored politician
  

[D'kian]

Of course I tried to explain that the theory-practice dichotomy doesn't exist,

Truly, it's not necessary to begin there. While you are right, theory and practice can be separated for the purpose of analysis. You could begin to take the theory apart, and point out how the practice corresponds to the theory. Then you have shown there is no theory/practice dichotomy.

She also wanted to know how I felt when I saw poor people working hard and not making much, with sick children and no health insurance, and then looked at a trust fundie who never has to work and doesn't do anything.

Next time, if there is one, tell her you don't think much of Democratic voters

[Spano]

On a wholly unrelated note, she asked me today if I liked the 'idea' of communism: the 'idea' of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need,' to which I tried to reply that communism practiced always...

There's no need to talk about communism's failure in practice when the theory itself is morally reprehensible. All you need to do is explain why the idea of "from each...to each..." means that productive people morally exist for the sake of the less productive. It should be pretty straightforward to explain why every man has the absolute right to the product of his efforts and the right to exist for his own sake, and why this is in direct contradiction to the central idea of communism (altruism).

[Qwertz]

There's no need to talk about communism's failure in practice when the theory itself is morally reprehensible. All you need to do is explain why the idea of "from each...to each..." means that productive people morally exist for the sake of the less productive. It should be pretty straightforward to explain why every man has the absolute right to the product of his efforts and the right to exist for his own sake, and why this is in direct contradiction to the central idea of communism (altruism).

That's exactly what I started to do, when she jumped in and told me that I was thinking instead of feeling. I ended up just saying that the idea of communism disgusts me, and she didn't ask for an explanation. Apparently, she thought I had rejected some self-evident truth (such as the kind she had previously insisted didn't exist) and figured I was hopelessly lost to the dark side, whatever that might be.

I've found, through this brief encounter, that people who reject the primacy of existence do so only when it suits them: Yesterday she had mislaid something, and was looking everywhere for it. I wanted to remind her that, since everyone stopped looking at it, it no longer existed, and so looking for something that didn't exist was silly and pointless.

-Q

[Felix]

wanted to remind her that, since everyone stopped looking at it, it no longer existed, and so looking for something that didn't exist was silly and pointless.

Even though this is funny, I doubt that it is helpful. You have to accept that she denies the self-evident when she sees it fit, or better: not fit. I'd bet she honestly believes that you have no understanding of what she believes and therefore all your hints are perceived as hostility.

Try this, if you really want to reach her mind:

Try to explain to her what you think she believes. Don't be hostile. Try to repress judgement. The key here is to make her see that you fully understand her position. Take the time. Don't say what you think of it all. Focus on understanding only. The key here is not to know it all already before she has even started. Listen and display understanding of her points. This doesn't mean that you accept her points or even that you think that they are consistent. The goal is to make her understand that you understand. Then, and only then, try to show her in one aspect where problems arise. Again, do it in a non-hostile way.

This approach may get you somewhere.

The goal here is to keep her from shutting down her mind by believing that you just don't understand and that it's pointless to talk to you. The reason to be so careful here is because this is a highly emotional issue. It goes down to her definition of her identity. You can't just change that with a simple remark about keys.

So if you want to really get to her instead of just making fun of her, give it a try.

[ColdWontRise]

"When I don't see the ball, it doesn't exist."

Your own lack of percetion is not proof of something's non-existence

"You need to go read Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and some Einstein."

The universe acts in a certain, concrete way. Everything is "relative" but the nature of its relativity is concrete and consistent. Hell, his first postulate of special relativity is that physics is the same in all frames of reference. They should be the ones reading up on Einstein.

[mrocktor]

Hell, his first postulate of special relativity is that physics is the same in all frames of reference. They should be the ones reading up on Einstein.

An appeal to authority is not *meant* to make sense, it's meant to shut you up (and in this case seems to have been effective hehe).

mrock

[Qwertz]

An appeal to authority is not *meant* to make sense, it's meant to shut you up (and in this case seems to have been effective hehe).

Not really. I told her that Einstein rejected the Copenhagen Interpretation. That shut her up, but I don't know if that's because she realized she was wrong, or that she didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

Also, Felix - some very good points. I'll try that approach next time I see her.

All in all it was a very interesting weekend.

-Q

[mrocktor]

Ah, so it wasn't effective. Very good

mrock

[Felix]

Also, Felix - some very good points. I'll try that approach next time I see her.

You're welcome.