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Adolescent Relationships

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this is the best advice i've yet to give, i think

Bring her out of it, simple

Go with her on a date and avoid, i repeat avoid drinking at all course. Make sure the environment has no alchol or anything to tempt her with. By doing that, soon she will forget her drinking habbit.

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  • 3 months later...

Although this topic seems to be long dead, I can't resist weighing in from an Objectivist female's perspective, especially being at about the same age as the original poster.

The advice given in EC's posts is pretty far off base for me in particular, and I haven't seen it refuted heavily enough. When I enter a relationship with a man, it is because I see my values reflected in him. One thing that I value and find attractive is confidence, but only when it's correctly placed. One example from EC's post: (I'm not particularly short, but suppose that I was) if someone were to walk up to me and say "hey shorty," (especially if he followed it up with the suggestion given) though I suppose it takes a certain amount of confidence to make that type of introduction, it would hold absolutely no reflection of my values. I would take an immediately antagonistic view of the man and likely avoid further interaction.

I don't want a man to "bust my balls," but I'd be thrilled to meet a man who would engage in intelligent, involved discussion with an underlying competence and resulting confidence - if his point is in opposition to my own, all the more interesting. But a demeanor of slobbish disrespect from the onset is utterly unattractive.

And the fact is that the opposite is not quite, but almost as unattractive. If a man is self-effacing and doing nothing but complimenting me and presenting me gifts without any reciprocity, I see too little self-respect there and would have a difficult time respecting him myself.

I'll restate what I've said once before for clarity's sake. I see a relationship between two people as a mutual acknowledgement of value. Yes, in a man I admire strength and confidence, but I have to expect that he admires my own virtues beyond "being short so I don't have to kneel when..." - and if that is the only basis for the relationship, what value can I possibly find in it? Wouldn't it be a terrible disservice to myself to think that that's all I'm worth or should expect? And wouldn't it be terrible for him, if he thinks so little of me, to engage with me on a sexual level when he has nothing to respect?

I don't want to be dominated - particularly not by someone who has not earned my respect.

All of this being said, my boyfriend is considered by many to be "cocky" or "contemptuous." He is disliked by some people because he comes across as an intimidating figure who is too self-assured. And I'll admit, I sometimes wish for his sake that he would learn to be more diplomatic when arguing his points.

But the reasons for his cockiness/"contempt" are usually a genuine competency in what he argues along with a dislike of people using incompetent, emotionally charged arguments against his reasoned ones. This I can respect, because it is a use and a display of his intellect, not a misguided attempt at "looking confident." And when we talk, there is an assumed respect from both of us - we each maintain our individually earned confidence, which is a tribute to our individual self-respect which is what attracts us to each other.

It's not about dominance and submission. It's about value and respect.

I also agree with about everything JMeganSnow has said.

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That was a great post Rational Mind. It parallels my experience closely - except I'm the guy who gets people mad by not tolerating their irrationality :lol: My girlfriend has a similar attitude to your own and has expressed similar sentiments as yours. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Advice such as EC's is self defeating because it is not integrated. You have to think about what kind of woman you are interested in, what that kind of woman would value and respect and you have to actually be that (acting like it might get you the girl, it will not make the relationship succesful).

I'm pretty sure the original poster is an intelligent and effective person, and is self confident - except in this matter. Introspection and understanding that you actually are the kid of man a rational woman should want to be with is key to becoming self confident when dealing with women.

Then you don't have to be a dick in order not to be submissive and uninteresting. You will discover that answering "what do you like doing?" with "I'm a total nerd, really" won't blow the girl off if you know your own worth. The "playa" will tell you to emulate all the effects of being truly self confident (look the girl in the eye, be at ease, its all in the "delivery" etc.) as if you couldn't be the real thing.

mrock

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[...]

Advice such as EC's is self defeating because it is not integrated. You have to think about what kind of woman you are interested in, what that kind of woman would value and respect and you have to actually be that (acting like it might get you the girl, it will not make the relationship succesful).

I'm pretty sure the original poster is an intelligent and effective person, and is self confident - except in this matter. Introspection and understanding that you actually are the kid of man a rational woman should want to be with is key to becoming self confident when dealing with women.

Then you don't have to be a dick in order not to be submissive and uninteresting. You will discover that answering "what do you like doing?" with "I'm a total nerd, really" won't blow the girl off if you know your own worth. The "playa" will tell you to emulate all the effects of being truly self confident (look the girl in the eye, be at ease, its all in the "delivery" etc.) as if you couldn't be the real thing.

mrock

And a ditto right back to 'ya.

Completely agreed in all respects - especially when it comes to having to know that you are already of value to the type of woman you want to attract.

This should hardly come as a surprise to someone already reading these forums, and I hope the redundancy will be forgiven, but it's most important to value yourself first. Your values, your life. It's one thing to say that you believe in living selfishly and it's another entirely to put it into practice - and it's rarely easy. Focus on attaining your best for its own sake. And while you're reaching this, the women who see it for what it is will be the ones worth your time and, guess what, you won't have to search them out or try to woo them.

It's the same as building, if you care to look at it that way. When the focus is on creating an appearance and the structure is neglected, even those who fall for the appearance will be dissapointed when they see how it functions.

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3 month break but this argument is back in business...

Are you aware of what "acting like yourself" entails? It's the hardest thing in the world to accomplish and it requires a tremendous amount of courage and "stepping outside your comfort zone". It means not kowtowing to the requirements of those you don't respect, relying on your own mind and judgment when others object, and having absolute, unbending integrity. And, it is VERY sexy, especially to women, who will see you as a pillar of strength among all the posturing jerks that have memorized lessons in "cockiness" from some manual and tried them on every female with a pulse in order to gain "experience". Pft.

Were you under the impression that your self is some kind of rancid pit that doesn't bear examination, and that you have to escape from it in order to impress? Pft again.

There's a fine line between acting like yourself and covering up who you are so people think you're something different... it's called constant improvement. No one is asking anybody to memorize "lines of cockiness" to cover up a "rancid pit." No one is advising to not think for yourself. But what we are (or were) trying to do is to get mightier to step out of his comfort zone and become better, not just with the ladies, but as a person.

right now, being sociable isn't who mightier is, he admitted that (which takes a lot of courage, btw). So to just say, "uh, i'll just be myself" is defeating because it denies that you need to become better or that you can become better.

If i was a crappy writer, and i wanted to write a brilliant essay, would you say, "just be yourself"? No, you'd (hopefully) say, "Well, right now, you're not a good writer, but if you work at it, and put yourself out there a few times, you'll become better. And if you stick to it, and not let anyone tell you otherwise, not only will your essay be brilliant, but your life will be brilliant."

Same applies here.

And while EC's recommendations were a little harsh, and probably not how i would approach a girl (i say hold back at first to see where she stands), they interjected a great paradigm into the discussion.

Edited by Febod
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  • 2 months later...
I believe that adolescent relationships are the most beatiful one because you are at the beggining and also you have all the time in the world for them.

Lol, I guess that's true in the technical sense.....but I think it's a lot easier when you're older and not controlled by your family. For me, there never seems to be enough time! Constant sneaking around, whispering, hurrying to get everything said and done, etc. But then again, it's still a lot of fun.

Edited by Mimpy
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  • 2 years later...

I know this thread is old but if it's going to get resurrected I'm gonna have to weigh in...

I have to say that I would never want a guy, ever, who followed EC's advice or took Feb's perspective. In fact, they may or may not get punched in the face. The biggest problem I have with it is that, first of all, it treats "women" or "girls" as some monolithic entity to be "worked on". Men need to remember that women are as different from each other as men are from each other, and that every individual has very different values, experiences, tendencies, and preferences. The approach you described will certainly get you SOME women, but what kind of women, and is it the kind you want? By the way, I know quite a few of those girls who always go out with "jerks", I agree that "jerks" get more play, but you know what? Those women are horribly unhappy and hate the way they're treated, they're just too weak to do anything about it (and by weak I mean personally weak, lacking in confidence and self-worth, not having a strong purpose in their lives). The kind of woman you'll "win" this way will be nothing but a Barbie doll. Wouldn't you rather have a woman with brains, personality, and above all SELF?

My relationship experience is at the same time limited and deep. I have been with the same guy for about eight years now, we live together, and although we are not married we are essentially committed for life. He would never have gotten me if he had acted that way. Granted, he is no doormat, and that's important, especially for a somewhat arrogant and forceful person such as myself. But he doesn't remind me that he is "THE MAN" in order to keep me from acting like an ass. He simply reminds me that he expects to be treated with the same respect as I insist upon towards myself and that nothing less is acceptable. It's about mutuality and trust. That's what you want in a relationship, not these ridiculously asymmetrical and trite roles.

Since the thread is specifically about adolescent relationships, I'll use the example of my high school boyfriend. He was younger than me, a freshman, and he made the move first, but he did it in I guess what some of you would consider a "submissive" way, making it clear he was in awe of me. I dug it, and I liked him anyway, and he was good-looking so I said sure. We had a good run for a few months. We probably would have been closer if I'd had a car and his dad wasn't a controlling psychopath, but hey, that's how it goes sometimes. He never lorded over me or acted overconfident, he was just a chill guy that I was good friends with and also happened to be attractive. Our relationship was a friendship first. Granted, what we had in common then probably wasn't the healthiest thing, our mutual disgust with everything we saw around us, our anger, and our desire to rip down all the stupid crap that most people ran their lives by. And lest anyone say there was no passion there, trust me, the physical side was all there. I even took a chance on making out with him and trying to go a bit further (I was extremely inexperienced) in school, and I was very much the "doesn't get in trouble" type. We parted as friends and I will always have a certain warm regard for him even though we don't talk often.

One more thing to consider. Sometimes men forget that women, unlike them, have some additional and unfortunate considerations to take into account when it comes to dating. Women have to be cognizant of the fact that there are some guys out there, more than there should be, who are literally unsafe to date. Perhaps this is why they expect a little more "ante" from the guy's side before they will consider it. Guys don't have to worry too much about date rape, but women do. It's a downer and it shouldn't have to be that way, but if you want to know why women, especially younger ones, seem overly cautious or "flaky", as you say, keep this in mind.

This thread is old but what are some good books on this topic EC?

Mod Note: Significantly shortened unnecessary quoted section - RB

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When talking about confidence at dating, nothing has helped me more than being friends with girls. Especially if they are older and possess my values.

For example, I am 17 and have one female friend who is 21 years old. We meet each other when we both have free time and go shopping or take a long walk at the beach, etc. The time I spent with her is probably the best I've had in my life and since she's confident, independent and ambitious woman(my type) it improves my self worth because with her, I feel like I am able to have the women I like in my life. Also, take into consideration that as you interact with other people, you may start possessing some of their traits. Like I became more confident and more ambitious since I begun to interact with her.

Of course, to do things like that, you must be more mature than other people your age and be interesting for older people. I find it rather simple due to my recent interest to economics, politics, psychology and philosophy.

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