knast Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Sweden is in a sense an ideal natural experiment in economic policies. Sweden was an impoverished nation until capitalism was introduced in the country during the 1870s. Although the socialdemocrats had a strong influence during the first half of the 20th century, they were pragmatic and slow to expand the size of government. Sweden was one of the freest economies in the world during this period and experienced the second fastest growth in the world between 1870 and 1970, second only to Japan. During the 60s the socialdemocrats radicalized and a rapid expansion of taxation, the regulatory burden and government occurred. Sweden became the country with the most extensive welfare state in the world, the highest taxes, the strongest unions and the longest period of one party rule (the socialdemocrats have been in power 60 of the past 69 years). Between the 1960s and the 1980s the government’s share of the Swedish economy increased from about 30 percent (approximately the same as the US) to about 55 percent. From this period and onward, the Swedish model has been on the decline... Read the whole thing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemuel Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Great article - as an importer/distributor of Swedish products I deal with quite a bit of that tax burden. High manufacturing and labor costs, as well as high taxation, lead to products that are highly expensive. Luckily the nature of the product is such that there is not much direct competition (making their unique nature a positive selling point), but high costs lead to slim profit margins & high prices, which equals (at best) lukewarm retail representation & market response. Is there any sign of a more laissez-faire political element in Sweden? I know there are several political parties - are there none powerful enough to oppose the social democrats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 The "opposition" is more like a very bad joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knast Posted April 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Is there any sign of a more laissez-faire political element in Sweden? I know there are several political parties - are there none powerful enough to oppose the social democrats? As Alfa indicated, the answer to this one is: No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dargormudshark Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 It seems to me that in Welfare States the longer it is in control that less likely it will be voted out. As the article said, the population gets used to these handouts and don't want to reform them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwenKellogg Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 That's because people become dependent on the welfare. In order for people to break out of a socialist government the whole system needs to break down. Atlas needs to shrug in Sweden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 That's because people become dependent on the welfare. In order for people to break out of a socialist government the whole system needs to break down. Atlas needs to shrug in Sweden.While I agree that stuff needs to change in Sweden, there is not yet enough dependency to bring this about. There is so little serious dependency that it doesn't particularly matter, yet. That's really the only thing that keep their system going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeppo Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 HONESTLY! hi! i´m swedish so you´ll have to excuse my english. Anyway, sweden is without competition the greatest country in the world. I agree that our economy isn´t that great but it´s one o the best in Europe so i think that we are doing OKfor our size. i mean if u see to all the benefitswe have in our contry. i don´t have the energy to list them all but to make a long story short; Swedes think that the common welfare is very important. we believe in equality to 100%, you don´t get better or faster treatment in the hostpitals just becouse you had the luck to be born in a rich family, if you lose your job or get sick or get a kid you can without a problem go on living a normal life becouse the Goverment gives you money so you can live a good life until you´re back on your feet. We have had the socialdemocrats in power 60 of the past 69 years becouse a majority of the people agrees with their politics especially the equality politics. We believe in solidarity. And yes, we had a stronger economy before the 60s that becouse we didn´t join in on the seconf world war. We hade no cities to rebuild but we had a lot of wood coal and steel which we sold to the rest of Europe and that´s why we had an extremly strong economy back then,,, and today we have the economy we "deserve" we have no natural-resources or someting like that we are a small contry we can´t expect the greatest economy in the world... our land keeps on growing not as fast as..hmm let´s say the U.S but at least we have no blood on our hands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myself Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 our land keeps on growing not as fast as..hmm let´s say the U.S but at least we have no blood on our hands... What is that supposed to mean? Is there a particular reason you came to this forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Swedes think that the common welfare is very important.That's why you have the world's biggest welfare state. I don't think you're telling us anything new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaszloWalrus Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Actually, I think North Korea has the world's biggest welfare state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Actually, I think North Korea has the world's biggest welfare state.Ah, no, that would be the worlds biggest concentration camp. A welfare state has to actually dole out welfare of some kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeppo Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 What is that supposed to mean? Is there a particular reason you came to this forum? It means that sure the US is a very powerful contry. But they are that powerful becouse of the total disregard of human rights. For exampel the guantanamo base, the illigal invasion of iraq and afghanistan. You don´t care about the environment; refuses to sign the Kyoto Protocol, and the latest thing, you threatened Sweden with sanctions if we didn´t change one of our laws, i mean come on mind your own damn business. And don´t get me started on the lack of democracy in the US.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 For exampel the guantanamo base, the illigal invasion of iraq and afghanistan.Well, the detentions at Gitmo aren't objectively justified at this point, so that isn't a relevant argument. On the other hand, there is nothing "illegal" or improper about the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan (though we should have departed Iraq after removing the dictator).refuses to sign the Kyoto ProtocolBut that's a good thing, not a bad thing. If I were to list concrete evils that Sweden has engaged in, that would be an example. That plus the Systembolaget.and the latest thing, you threatened Sweden with sanctions if we didn´t change one of our laws,I'm interested in that: what's the law? (I'd like an actual citation of the law and not a digested representation)And don´t get me started on the lack of democracy in the US.WTF does that mean? Why would you think democracy is a good thing? Crap, that is how Iran got in the mess it's in right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaszloWalrus Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Jeppo, Sweden is an unfree nation that violates the rights of its citizens by stealing enormous amounts of their money to give to the unproductive. Afghanistan and Iraq were demonstrable threats to the US (and the West in general) and murdered their own citizens besides. Do you think that the US has "blood on its hands" for the D-Day invasion? As far as democracy goes, true democracy is the majority voting to enslave or destroy the minority. Freedom is far better than democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeppo Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Well, the detentions at Gitmo aren't objectively justified at this point, so that isn't a relevant argument. well all i know is that the US have brought people to a prison and they have been kept there for many years without a fair trial which is a violation of the Human rights. and you can´t deny all the accusations of torture might have some truth...at least i believe that they are true. But sure you´re innocent until proven guility..or well not at guantanamo (read the US) but in the rest of the free world... But that's a good thing, not a bad thing how can you say that the kyoto protocol is a bad thing..? I'm interested in that: what's the law i can´t give you an exact citation but it´s a law about copyright and downloading Why would you think democracy is a good thing? did i get this right.. u don´t believe in democracy??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeppo Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Jeppo, Sweden is an unfree nation that violates the rights of its citizens by stealing enormous amounts of their money to give to the unproductive. Afghanistan and Iraq were demonstrable threats to the US (and the West in general) and murdered their own citizens besides. Do you think that the US has "blood on its hands" for the D-Day invasion? As far as democracy goes, true democracy is the majority voting to enslave or destroy the minority. Freedom is far better than democracy. First of all our government don´t steal anything they are, by the people, chosen leaders... "the unproductive" as you call them, it´s true that the "productive" pays a part of their money to give the old, sick, handicaped and other people who can´t support themself a life worth living we don´t have any ghettos in my county, our hospitals are very good and more important EVERYONE can afford to go to the hospital. So plz don´t talk about how my government steals money from the citizens. we have chosen this ourselfs becouse we believe in solidarity. Well i don´t really care who the US think is threatening them. No county is allowed to invade another without any reason. The official reason to invade iraq was that they had nuclear weaponds...so the UN send inspectors into the county, but the US couldn´t wait for the results so they just droped some bombs over hte country wirthout any proof of nuclear weaponds and the UN forbidd the US to invade iraq and that makes it an illigal invasion.. as far as democracy goes...without the rules which are formed in a democratic society the minorities really would be enslaved. without democracy it´s everyman for himself. the law of the jungle; the stronges have the power..that won´t help the minorities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 and you can´t deny all the accusations of torture might have some truth...at least i believe that they are true.Well, I believe the rumors that Sweden is clandestinely murdering Somalis by the bushel basket, or at least there may be some truth to it. I'll show you my evidence if you'll show me yours.how can you say that the kyoto protocol is a bad thing..?First, it is unegalitarian because it forces certain nations to pay for technology for other nations to solve the problem, and it allows rights-violators in certain nations to persist. Second, it makes an individual property rights issue into a national political issue, which it isn't. I don't oppose the idea of having clean air, I oppose this government-based way of getting it.i can´t give you an exact citation but it´s a law about copyright and downloadingWell, I'm extremely skeptical about your claim so the burden is on you to give evidence that this is true. Shoulder that burden, dude.did i get this right.. u don´t believe in democracy???Of course not: democracy is horribly oppressive. You understand the difference between freedom and the tyrrany of the masses, don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathanar Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 how can you say that the kyoto protocol is a bad thing..? It's a clever way to get the US to subsidize third world countries industry growth. i can´t give you an exact citation but it´s a law about copyright and downloading I believe he is refering to the fact that Sweden wants to remove a law which made it illegal to download copyrighted material, basically legalizing piracy. did i get this right.. u don´t believe in democracy??? Democracy is a tool. Just like any tool, when used by irrational people it can be used for great harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaszloWalrus Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 As the saying goes, democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. The fact that one group is in a majority does not give them the right to steal from those in the minority. Governmental power is the power to use force, period. Therefore, it's only legitimate function is to stop the inititiation of force (i.e. theft, murder, rape, invasion, etc.). Afghanistan was a clear threat to the US (September 11, 2001). Iraq was also a threat; they disrupted oil supplies in Kuwait, they funded Islamic terrorist groups, they violated the conditions of the "no-fly zone" established after the first Gulf War, they even violated the deal they made with the corrupt UN that you laud so much. The United Nations provides a means for such dictatorships as Iran, Cuba, Libya, etc. to continue to enslave and murder their own people and drain resources from freer countries. They also constantly sell out Israel to the theocrats who dominate the Middle East. They sold out Taiwan to China, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 (edited) So plz don´t talk about how my government steals money from the citizens. we have chosen this ourselfs becouse we believe in solidarity. If you have all chosen to give so much of your money away, then why does the government need to FORCE people to do it through taxes? Why not just let the people who choose to give; give? The fact is, it isn't at all as you describe. The government condiscates the property of many people. What it subsequently does with that property (i.e. give to the poor) is not of consequence. The fact is that it is being taken by force. Do you believe that bank robbing is moral? Why do you apply a different moral standard to individuals and governments? BTW, I know of at least one Swede who is not a willing participant in that scheme. Does he have no right to keep the wealth that he earns, simply because a majority has voted? This is why we say that democracy is evil: because majorities can vote away human rights. If you don't think that keeping your money is a human right, then what about Afghanistan, where the democracy there voted to make converting away from Islam punishable by death? That is democracy. Also, Kyoto is based on the premise that CO2 is harmful. It is not; that is a myth. Forcing economies to shut down per Kyoto would cause mass poverty... all in the service of a myth. Do you think that would be good? Edited June 22, 2006 by Inspector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knast Posted June 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 (edited) Jeppo, please stop talking as if you were some sort of a offical spokesman for Sweden: "We believe in this... We believe in that..." You may believe that it is right and proper to tax, i.e. steal money, the productive in order to redistribute their wealth to the unproductive (i.e. the 20-25% of the population who doesn't work). But I don't and I know that there's many other swedes who agree with me. Furthermore, please stop spreading outright lies about Sweden, or for that matter, the United States. More articles which reveals the truth about Sweden: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/johnsson1.html -- The truth about the Swedish health care system http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/sanandaji3.html -- Crimes the Social Democrats have committed. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/sanandaji1.html -- Why is Sweden relatively wealthy? No "ghettos" in Sweden? You've got to be kidding me! http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/sanandaji6.html http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...05/271dgkju.asp http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2005...mmigrant_r.html Edited June 23, 2006 by knast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knast Posted June 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 And, by the way, poverty is increasing in Sweden while it is decreasing in freer economies such as Ireland and Britain: http://www.aqurette.com/blog/0604.shtml#B06042702 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptix Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 I'm not going to waste any of my life on a retort, but am simply going to recommend that the spokesperson for Sweden read Atlas Shrugged, hopefully one day I will gain value from this in the form of trade, possibly a can of Swedish Snus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidOdden Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 possibly a can of Swedish Snus.Would you settle for a can of surströmming? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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