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The Truth About Sweden

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knast

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I'm not going to waste any of my life on a retort

Finally, someone who gets it! Trying to have a meaningful conversation with a brainwashed America-hating commie from Sweden is about as useful an investment of your time as trying to talk a brick into becoming gold.

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Finally, someone who gets it! Trying to have a meaningful conversation with a brainwashed America-hating commie from Sweden is about as useful an investment of your time as trying to talk a brick into becoming gold.

Some bricks are Gold bricks, but I understand your analogy, it's common sense.

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haha

I´m not a commie far from it, you americans consider everyone who´s not a Republican a commie soo come on...

i do realize the problems with both democracy and sweden i truly do. But first; democracy.. that is the bst option we have i don´t see any of you coming with an alternitive. and for me democracy is more than just mayority rules democracy means freedom of religion, freedom of the press, of speach, and so on..

Of course i´m not a spokesman for sweden all i´m saying is that a mayority has desided that we are going to care for each other. Everyone doesn´t agree but most of the popoulation does. You have to realize that the parties in our ...hmm parlament are very much alike and all of them believe in solidarity and they have the suport from more or less the whole population.

and knast...

first of all "the unproductive" are not as many as 25 %

but sure we have high unemployment in the country, as the rest of Europe.

but well this is where we disagree.

i don´t believe that i´m worth more just becouse i´m not poor

i believe that you should help those who are born with a handicap

i believe that if you get sick you shouldent be forced to sell your house and live on the streets

i believe that those who were lucky to be born in rich powerful families have a duty to help those who are in need... by force if the mayority thinks that is right

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i believe that those who were lucky to be born in rich powerful families have a duty to help those who are in need... by force if the majority thinks that is right
This is the pay-off. Like the pouting bully who grabs the rich boy's toy, you will grab at the belongings of those who are richer than you. Unlike the bully, you do not even have the guts to grab what you want, you want to do it with your prowling pack of strays. You admit to being a slave to your pack -- well, good luck to you, admitting that they may grab your stuff, and do what they want with you. Thus stands evil, naked and grotesque.
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and for me democracy is more than just mayority rules democracy means freedom of religion, freedom of the press, of speach, and so on..
What do you mean "for you"? That isn't the meaning of democracy. Democracy is exactly majoritarian dictatorship. "Freedom" is something entirely different -- it is about the rights of man (these are specific instances of your rights as a human, namely your right to live your right according to your judgment, as long as you do not initiate force against others). Democracy has, in fact, proven to be a lousy political system for protecting man's rights, and you are better off with a constitutional legal system with limited power.
Everyone doesn´t agree but most of the popoulation does.
But it clearly doesn't agree. If the majority of the population did agree with these social welfare programs, there would be no involuntary taxation.
i don´t believe that i´m worth more just becouse i´m not poor
Simple math will tell you that that is not so. If you were poor, let's say you made 40.000 kroner in a year, and had no savings, they your are worth less than the person who makes 800.000 and has savings of 4 million. That does not change the fact that your have the same rights; but you are worth less than him.
i believe that you should help those who are born with a handicap
That's very nice of you, and there is no objection to you giving away your wealth if you want to. Just don't make me pay.
i believe that if you get sick you shouldent be forced to sell your house and live on the streets
Of course not; you have many choices. Borrow money, live with the sickeness, get a better job, or die. Your problems are not my responsibility.
i believe that those who were lucky to be born in rich powerful families have a duty to help those who are in need... by force if the mayority thinks that is right
Naked aggression. This is the brutal underbelly of Swedish communism which people rarely talk about in public. I'm surprised to see that you would so clearly identify the underlying fascism of your philosophy. Now, if it is right to kill a person if he resists the theft of his property for the same of others, when ordered by "the majority", why would the same violence not be right when ordered by a minority. As, in fact, is the case in Sweden today.
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What do you mean "for you"? That isn't the meaning of democracy.

yes...you can not have a democracy without for example freedom of speach... that´s it, you might not agree but well what can i say...

But it clearly doesn't agree. If the majority of the population did agree with these social welfare programs, there would be no involuntary taxation.

Okej...so what do you propose...our elections have been faked or something like that...it´s a fact that the parties who believe in high taxes are all in the parlament, we have 7 different parties in the paralemnt all of them stand for high taxes... we have other alternetive as well...but they are not chosen...my conclusion, we have, in fact, chosen our own parlament...

Simple math will tell you that that is not so. If you were poor, let's say you made 40.000 kroner in a year, and had no savings, they your are worth less than the person who makes 800.000 and has savings of 4 million. That does not change the fact that your have the same rights; but you are worth less than him.

There are diffrent ways of measuring a mans value than how much money he makes...

That's very nice of you, and there is no objection to you giving away your wealth if you want to. Just don't make me pay.

Of course not; you have many choices. Borrow money, live with the sickeness, get a better job, or die. Your problems are not my responsibility.

well here is one of our biggest diffrences and i don´t expect you to understand what i´m standing for...i don´t think you are capable of that, but i´ll try to explain

If a person is born in Africa he is starving from his birth he was born without legs, he has nothing, really nothing, no opportunities what so ever, let´s compare him to a person who is born in a rich family in the US who has every chans in the world to be what ever he want he´s smart he´s handsome he has everything.

don´t you think it´s unfair? I can see what you are meaning with "is it right to steal money from the rich US-guy" perhaps not.. but is it fair to let the boy in africa live the life he is forced to live... what makes him a worse person why do he deserve that life. isn´t it more unfair to say that i don´t care i was lucky...i can´t see why that is fair...i truly can´t

Naked aggression. This is the brutal underbelly of Swedish communism which people rarely talk about in public. I'm surprised to see that you would so clearly identify the underlying fascism of your philosophy. Now, if it is right to kill a person if he resists the theft of his property for the same of others, when ordered by "the majority", why would the same violence not be right when ordered by a minority. As, in fact, is the case in Sweden today..

once again nether i or sweden are communists. It´s not right to kill somebody becouse it´s against the Human rights which is a must in a democratic society. and once again here is the problem with democarcy...really i do recognize the problem, if the majority rules what about those who don´t agree with them why can´t they live their life as they want to. i don´t say that democracy is a utopia but i don´t see any other options right now. i would love to hear your alternative

P.S the majority rules in sweden...

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democracy.. that is the bst option we have i don´t see any of you coming with an alternitive.

Actually, we do. We advocate full laissez-faire capitalism, implemented with a constitutional republic, not an unlimited democracy.

As for the rest of your garbage, you have stated you are willing to use force to implement your schemes. That makes you as low as any common criminal. Theft is theft, no matter what purpose you put the stolen goods toward.

I think, given your brutal, murderous ideas it's well time the admins banned you.

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I believe there was a post in the Mises Institute about Sweden a while ago, I'll try to find the link.

As for the Kyoto protocol, I think you might find this insightful: http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/Kyoto_Count_Up.htm

David, I have a question. What's the Objectivist alternative to democracy? Is it anarcho capitalism., i.e. no government whatsoever?

Strangelove: As a matter of fact, I found a Norwegian translation of Atlas Shrugged about a year ago in San Cristobal de las Casas, in Chiapas, Mexico. So I guess a Swedish edition might not be that uncommon.

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Jeppo is on moderator preview folks so it's unlikely his posts will make it through until he at least appears to have learned something about Capitalism and/or Objectivism. Sadly, it appears he has a very underinformed view of these concepts.

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David, I have a question. What's the Objectivist alternative to democracy? Is it anarcho capitalism., i.e. no government whatsoever?
I know this question was directed at David, but I'm answering anyway (I hope I'm not being rude).

The answer, constitutional republic, has come up in this thread. There is a separation of state and economics as there is a separation of church and state. Taxation has been addressed in this thread indirectly - it would be voluntary (it is wrong to initiate force against the people that the government is supposed to protect).

Check the threads in the Political Philosophy section of the forum if you have a specific aspect in mind. Otherwise, Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal is good if you have access to a copy. Basically, some things could be tweaked in the US constitution to make it laissez-faire (check out this thread and this one). Also, Walter Williams compares and contrasts republicanism with democracy here. Objectivism does not support anarcho capitalism.

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What's the Objectivist alternative to democracy?
Feather basically said it. The most important aspect of a rights-respecting government is a proper constitution which states the responsibilities and restrictions on government. With such a legal framework, it becomes vastly less important how new laws are created and codified to address new situations. Direct democracy could be an option where citizens vote on new laws, as would be a republic where qualified portions of the populace chose between individuals who write these laws. A mix would be possible, where officials vote on a new law and submit ti to the populace. With appropriate qualifications on who is qualified to make these decisions, this would be roughly like shareholder's electing a board of directors. What is important is not who gets to decide, but what limits there are on their power to decide.
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Here are some final points that I urge Jeppo (the village, I assume) to consider. First, you should look more seriously at what "democracy" refers to. I will be the first to admit that Our Glorious Leader Dubya is on the forefront of abusing the term: democracy means rule by the people, period. If you want liberty, then don't demand democracy. Democracy is not only possible without freedom of speech, it is likely that actual democracy will result in curtailment of freedom of speech.

I don't believe that the Swedish elections were faked: they simply do not constitute evidence that the majority of the population of Sweden actually supports the use of violence against its citizens. If Sweden had direct democracy rather than a parliamentary system, that fact would be much more obvious, because then the Swedish communist system would be gone in a matter of months, being replaced by voluntary charity by people who are really into unearned obligations. Voting for a party because it seems to be the lesser of two or three evils does not mean that the voters actually support or advocate all of the positions of that party. [FN: I don't know the details of Swedish elections, but I assume that you vote for parties at the national level and not specific candidates for a particular town]. You are inferring way more than can justly be inferred from the voting patterns.

You're pulling a bait-and-switch in implying that there are many ways to measure a man's value. The question, which you raised, was about worth, i.e. wealth. You completely ignored the essential point that man's right are not a function either of his wealth or of his value to some other person. You might be extremely wealthy or extremely poor -- that wouldn't make any difference to me, in terms of your value to me. You also are of virtually no value to me whatsoever at the moment (though that could change if for example you have a gas station out in BFE and I run out of gas near your place, or if I learn that you have a skill that I need). Regardless of the fact that you are of negligible value to me, you have the right to run your gas station and read Kant and advocate self-sacrifice. It's only when you direct your violence against me or those whom I value that we have a serious problem.

I should point out that I did know a guy who was born in Africa with no legs (or perhaps he lost them somewhere), and yet that guy did manage to survive using his wits. Not very elegantly, I grant you, but few people live elegantly in Tanzania (quiz question: why? Answer: because of socialism). He did good wood carvings and did survive off of what he knew how to do. He did not require violence by other people to live.

Your comparisons are totally inapt (which is not the same as inept) and racist. The proper comparison is the rich, handsome African with all of the chances in the world and the poor ugly, legless one-eyed Swede who has no money, legs, or mind and cannot possibly survive. Frankly, I get really annoyed at people gratuitously declaring Africa to be the universal hellhole of legless beggars. What is unfair is when a person points a gun at your head and says "Give me half your wealth, or I will kill you". A guy who has the misfortune of being born with no legs, or being born ugly, can still survive in a rational world that does not live by looting. It is very hard to survive as a legless guy if thugs come by your stand every day to demand payment, like they do in Sweden.

What you should do is buy a carving from the legless guy, assuming that you like his style.

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Just a quick comment.

Did everyone notice how helping the starving legless man in Africa by taking some money from the extremely wealthy American turned into a defence for "I should be able to download music by an artist illegally because they have more money than I do."? (derrived from his objection to America wanting Sweden to change its loose of copywrite laws). Similar premise, disasterous consequences.

Just goes to show that if you grant them one thing, they'll want it all.

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