Worst Event In History

[JASKN]

Today in my miserable U.S. History class, my professor spoke on September 11th, 2001, the attacks against the United States. Last week he showed a play-by-play documentary set in New York City, which was emotional and disturbing for me. This subject still gets me riled up, and the more I think about it, the angrier I get.

This, and with the national release of (the critically acclaimed) United 93, got me thinking about the attacks in the broadest historical context. Ultimately, men representing the lowest, most miserable offering of the human race, or of existence, given that humans are the greatest known assemblance of matter, set out to destroy the greatest of men/existence (their capitalist country) by destroying what they viewed as a symbol of their greatness (the Towers, political buildings), for exactly the fact that the United States was the greatest.

We are living the most brilliant time of advancement and achievement known. Maybe I am being emotional, but I think that for those men to destroy New York, the United States, the greatest country of all time, and the people in it, and to do it for their reasons, the attack on September 11th was the single worst, most horrible atrocity in the history of existence. The key is the reasons for which they did it.

So I would like to know who agrees, and for what reasons, and who disagrees, for what reasons, and what event (or era, if you think that is more appropriate) you think should replace September 11th as the worst.

Edited May 1, 2006 by JASKN

[Strangelove]

The Bolshevik revolution of 1917 was quite a terrible event. Beginning a whole chain of events that would have been better not to have happened. They intentionally overthrew the provisional government of Kerensky (The Czar had abdicated by now) to intentionally put a worse system of government in place.

[BurgessLau]

So I would like to know [...] what event [...] you think should replace September 11th as the worst.

If worst event means that human action which resulted in the greatest destruction of objective values, then I would suggest the writing and 1781 publication of the first edition of Critique of Pure Reason by Immanuel Kant. For the consequences, see Leonard Peikoff, Ominous Parallels.

[DavidOdden]

Other events would be the Feb. 21 1848 publication of The Communist Manifesto, the Aug 27 1770 birth of Hegel, the September 14, 1930 German election when the Nazi party received over 6 millions votes. It is an unimportant acedemic exercise exactly how you rank horrors, as long as you can identify what they are, and what causes them.

[The Wrath]

The spread of Christianity across Europe and the spread of Islam across the Middle East are numbers 1 and 2 respectively, in my book.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Moose

[skap35]

The spread of Christianity across Europe and the spread of Islam across the Middle East are numbers 1 and 2 respectively, in my book.

arg, you beat me to it. I was going to say Christianity, which was one of the major causes of the decline of the Roman Empire and later caused Europe to fall into the Dark Ages (plus all the other problems with it). Then, of course the spread of Islam is a no brainer.

But maybe a better one would be the spread of religion in general...I can think of countless tragic events in history that were caused at least partially by religion.

[Eternal]

I'll go with the day a god was invented.

The spread of Christianity across Europe and the spread of Islam across the Middle East.

I'm not a history expert, but could it be argued, that the spread of Christianity saved Europe from eventual spread of Islam? Or is it perhaps that Christianity caused Islam?

Edited May 1, 2006 by Eternal

[The Wrath]

During the dark ages, the Muslim world was the last remaining bastion of reason and enlightenment. It was the Muslims who saved Western philosophy. If it hadn't been for them, the works of Plato and Aristotle might be completely unknown today. If the Muslims had conquered all of Europe and managed to hold on to their golden age, things might have been better than they turned out. When I included the spread of Islam, I was thinking about the events after the Muslim golden age.

And, yes, I agree that Christianity caused Islam. Islam is, after all, just a bastardized version of Judeo-Christianity.

[skap35]

Islam is, after all, just a bastardized version of Judeo-Christianity.

I don't know much about the details of Islam, so could you give some info on this?

[ScottP]

What is the worst event in history?

Since it involves judging or evaluating history, this type of question naturally tends to yield both subjective and intrinsicist answers.

The subjective or personal answer--by the original questioner--focusses on the significance of the event in one's own life. The question is answered by measuring the impact of history on one's own values, here and now. In this context it's not surprising to find someone answering that 9/11 is the worst event in history. It was a jarring event, and we'll always be scarred by it.

But in the intrinsicist interpretation, the question doesn't rightly pertain to one's personal life. If it's to be answered "objectively," in this approach, you have to do a body count. Accordingly, the event in which the most number of people died, the most life was lost, is the worst. It is the worst because life--not your life, but life in general--is the standard, so you just look for how many people died, and then you know which was the "worst." Leaving aside the problem of defining what an "event" is, as opposed to a "period" or "era," the people who have answered that the Russian Revolution, the Rise of Christianity, the Rise of Islam are the worst "events" all seem to be answering along this axis. (I'll happily accept being corrected on this, if that's not the case, but I can't see how something like the Spread of Islam can be viewed as the most negative event from the perspective of one's life today, unless one lives in an Islamic theocracy. Nor can Christianity be viewed as the greatest negative, because in the United States we enjoy freedom of religion.)

I think that the objective answer is to be found by answering: what event, by the standard of life, negatively conditioned the world into which I came, is harming me now, and will continue to undermine the entire field of value-pursuits for me, in every major area, over the course of my whole life as a conceptual being.

By that standard, I agree that the publication of the Critique of Pure Reason in 1781 is the worst event in history. This is the objective answer, whether you are living in Communist North Korea, Islamic Iran, or the United States, because it has to do with life for man qua man. It is Kant's wrong answers to the most fundamental questions about man's faculty of reason, and the enduring impact of his answers--in the form of his influence on the moral and political philosophy of Hegel, Marx, James, et al. that trickled down into the statist politics of Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Roosevelt (both of them), Clinton and Bush (to give just a short list). Kant's view that man is made of "crooked timber" is at the root of environmentalism, the debasement of art, and collectivist economics. Pragmatism and Neo-Conservatism, which intellectually disarm America, and prevent it from defending itself, are both offshoots of Kantianism. Kant's influence also trickles down into history, which the original poster bemoans as a corrupt discipline affecting his life.

The publication of Kant's Critique is not as obviously traumatic as 9/11, but Kant's presence is continual and pervasive, for the bad. The destructive power of the publication of his book is so great that TNT is far too minute a unit of measurement for it. As a historian, I don't think the fact that this is the case is "academic." My life is at stake. My world is at stake. Every value I hold is in jeopardy because of Kant. It's important to identify how and why he is the worst human that ever lived, and the publication of his book is the worst event in history, so that his historical/causal presence in my life can be overturned.

Regards,

Scott.

www.powellhistory.com

[DavidOdden]

By that standard, I agree that the publication of the Critique of Pure Reason in 1781 is the worst event in history. This is the objective answer, whether you are living in Communist North Korea, Islamic Iran, or the United States, because it has to do with life for man qua man.

Having contemplated the issue further, I now agree with Moose's identification: the worst event in history was the creation of Christianity. A fundamental reason is that Christianity gave rise to both Islam and Kant. By the standard that you propose -- which I agree with -- Kant is just one concrete manifestation of the consequences of Christianity; just as Marxism is just one concrete manifestation of Kant's philosophy. The greater evil is Christianity.

[BurgessLau]

[...] the worst event in history was the creation of Christianity. A fundamental reason is that Christianity gave rise to both Islam and Kant. [...]

This is an intriguing topic, not so much because of the final answer we will come up with, if any, but because of the related issues it brings up.

For David, or anyone else, I have three questions:

1. What does "Christianity" mean here?

2. In what way did it give rise to Islam?

3. In what way did it -- rather than, say, Plato -- give rise to Kant?

Edited May 2, 2006 by BurgessLau

[Lathanar]

This is an intriguing topic, not so much because of the final answer we will come up with, if any, but because of the related issues it brings up.

For David, or anyone else, I have three questions:

1. What does "Christianity" mean here?

2. In what way did it give rise to Islam?

3. In what way did it -- rather than, say, Plato -- give rise to Kant?

I would say Christianity is simply the religions that follow the teachings of Jesus. I don't think Christianity gave rise to Islam, I believe Judaism is the first to hold Abraham as adhering to monotheism and Abraham is what derived modern Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and a few others.

I am curious though, is Christianity the first religion to actually have it's god find a way to make attonement for all men's immorality and forgive them for it, removing any real responsibility for their actions? I may well be way off base with what I'm thinking about here.

[Pulsar]

It seems to me that if Christianity were in fact to blame for the creation of Islam that naturally Judaism was the stem from which concepts of a foretold 'messiah' came first. Any sunday school child knows that back in the day that Judaism was in conflict with other religions, be they monotheistic or polytheistic. Religion, or worship, of some kind has been present in men since their most primitive stages. Likewise, the more primitive the man, the more vague the faith. Having a limited amount of truth to interpret men worshipped the unknowable. They gave themselves over to the concept that there was a power higher than themselves, so high that it was above being comprehended. Seeing themselves as pawns to the whims of a deity, is it any suprise they saw one another as human currency? And too often they use the metaphor of 'god' or 'gods,' to in fact justify the particular standard they were attempting to force on other individuals at that time.

The majority of argument here seems to seek to understand what started the age of irrationality within which mankind is currently still immersed, and I would ask that you remember that man is descended from beast, and that his current faculties had to evolve, they were not as they are now perhaps thousands of years ago. It would take a conscious decision of evil to begin an age such as this, a consciousness with which would have made the enemy quite formiddable. However, despite the effect of many collectivist mentalities, a SINGLE collectivist mentality is small and frail without the claims it lays to charity through the guilt of its victims. However what it is important now is that we realise are NOT animals, that we can percieve, judge, and reason. The enemy is not a single man, religion, or event. It is a murky, cowardly philosophy that has worked from the inside of ugly men and slowly begun to affect the world around him. What is important that it is able to be recognised. It cannot be denied any longer, because its results have become objective; visible in every part of the world around us.

What is important now is that men realise it and free themselves from it.

[DavidOdden]

1. What does "Christianity" mean here?

2. In what way did it give rise to Islam?

3. In what way did it -- rather than, say, Plato -- give rise to Kant?

A quick response for now is that Christianity refers to the teachings supposedly stemming from "Jesus" (without implying that there was such a person or that he actually taught such things). The defining characteristic is taking the New Testatment to be divine scripture. The point about Islam is a historical claim (one which I admit that I'm not at all competent to address), that Islam arise in part in reaction to Christianity and in part by assimilation of Christianity which was the dominant competing religion). Without disparaging the contribution of Plato to Kant's thinking, I think that religious thinking pervades his philosophical development (recalling that his first publications were religious, e.g. The One Possible Basis for a Demonstration of the Existence of God). Had Christianity not existed, he could have focused on a reality-based philosophy.

The interesting question is whether the central philosophy of Judaism is "more rational" than Christianity, and I would argue that it is (briefly, it is more "reason-based" than "faith-based" qua religion). Otherwise, I would say that Judaism could be a contender, as the root of Christianity.

[The Wrath]

When I talk about historical Christianity, I am talking about the total net influence of the historical figure known as Jesus Christ. Today, Christianity in the western world doesn't have that much of a negative impact, because most people are only nominally Christian and don't really live by its tenets.

I agree that Judaism is far more rational than Christianity. If any religion has had a positive influence on the world, it is Judaism. I don't know enough about history to say for certain that its overall influence is positive, but I think I know enough to say that it is the least negative.

The reason that I say that Christianity gave rise to Islam is because Islam claims the same prophets (including Jesus) as Christianity. Granted, it also claims the same prophets as Judaism, but Judaism has always been a religion very limited in geography, whereas Christianity was far more widespread by the time that Mohammad came around. The rest of the Abrahamic religions (and there are many more than just the big 3) would have either died out or never existed, had it not been for the spread of Christianity. Judaism might have stuck around, but the others would probably never have existed in the first place.

Judaism's propehecies, not its ideas, gave rise to Christianity. In fact, if you read the Old and New Testaments, the teachings of Judaism are nearly diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christianity. The only way that Christianity arose from Judaism is that Christ fulfilled the prophecy of the Messiah. The Old Testament doesn't say anything about what the Messiah will be like or what his teachings will be, but I would imagine the people that wrote the prophecies didn't have someone like Jesus in mind.

Plus, as David mentioned, Christianity is much more faith-based than Judaism. Islam just takes that faith one step further and demands that you be killed if you ever so much as question how we know that Islam is true. At least Christianity doesn't completely negate the need for evidence. In Islam, you aren't permitted to question anything. It is the epitome of "blind faith." So, Christianity did not arise from Judaism's ideas or philosophy. Islam most certainly arose from Christianity's ideas and philosophy.

[Marty McFly]

History is full of terrible events, but I haveto agreewith the firts poster (and the starter of this thtread) - the distruction of man's highest, most wonderful acheivement- Howard Roark's sky=scrapers (theTwin Towers) and Jhon Galt's idea of the greatest way to trade ( the World TRADE Center) destroyed by the most depraved forms of humanity, and by what means? box cutters!!

If Ayn Rand were alive today she would agree: September 11 was the one most terrible desaster vin human history.

oh, and it was in New York City. the home of the world's largest businesses and Ayn Rand's favorite...

on that note... did she live to see the building of the Twin Towers?

Edited October 10, 2006 by Marty McFly

[IAmMetaphysical]

The towers were completed in the seventies, she died in '82.

Oh, and I think that the single worst "event" was the day that a man started preaching irrationality, and was taken seriously, which is probably way far back in our history.

Edited October 10, 2006 by IAmMetaphysical

[mweiss]

In a broad sense, perhaps it was one of the most terrible event, but on a personal level, the worst event in history is the one that has the most adverse affect on you. If you were Jewish, and survived the Haulocaust, for you, the atrocities of Nazi Germany would be likely considered the worst event of all time.

Certainly from a standpoint of the number of dead, 9/11 was pretty low on that scale. Russia and Germany, and probably North Korea have done far more killing of their own people.

However, the 9/11 attack was one of the most brazen and it caught the US with its proverbial pants down.

[IAmMetaphysical]

There are proverbial pants??! Cool, I need to get my ass down to the GAP!

[Bold Standard]

I'll go with the day a god was invented.

I strongly disagree with this, since the first day a god was invented was probably one of man's earliest attempts to discover a (primitively) philosophical approach to understanding the universe (i.e., a metaphysics).

Here's an historical question: if Christianity hadn't dominated the Roman Empire, would a different Mystery Cult simply have taken its place? When I compare the bits of Augustine (early Christian philosopher) with the bits of Plotinus (late pre-Christian philosopher) that I've read, the differences seem very subtle in the most important places. There were many other cults similar to Christianity in Rome at the time, but there are (mostly tactical) reasons that Christianity dominated. But if Christianity had never been thought of, would events have turned out in an almost identical way with an almost identical religion, or is there something special about Christianity that made it so devastatingly influential?

As to the primary question of this thread: I don't know what the worst even in history was, but I do know that seeing the Towers crash on TV was the worst historical event that I ever witnessed while it was happening. The spectacle of watching Bush appease and let the enemies escape and more or less get away with it, in near sympathy with the prevailing views of the world has been almost as disturbing to watch.

[The Wrath]

I strongly disagree with this, since the first day a god was invented was probably one of man's earliest attempts to discover a (primitively) philosophical approach to understanding the universe (i.e., a metaphysics).

I've never thought of this...that's actually a very good point.

[Marty McFly]

I strongly disagree with this, since the first day a god was invented was probably one of man's earliest attempts to discover a (primitively) philosophical approach to understanding the universe (i.e., a metaphysics).

Here's an historical question: if Christianity hadn't dominated the Roman Empire, would a different Mystery Cult simply have taken its place? When I compare the bits of Augustine (early Christian philosopher) with the bits of Plotinus (late pre-Christian philosopher) that I've read, the differences seem very subtle in the most important places. There were many other cults similar to Christianity in Rome at the time, but there are (mostly tactical) reasons that Christianity dominated. But if Christianity had never been thought of, would events have turned out in an almost identical way with an almost identical religion, or is there something special about Christianity that made it so devastatingly influential?

As to the primary question of this thread: I don't know what the worst even in history was, but I do know that seeing the Towers crash on TV was the worst historical event that I ever witnessed while it was happening. The spectacle of watching Bush appease and let the enemies escape and more or less get away with it, in near sympathy with the prevailing views of the world has been almost as disturbing to watch.

Oh yes yes I totally agree! Watching the world feel "sorry" for the terrorists because they are so *poor* and *helpless* was worse than even the collapse of the greatest towers I've known. They talk about feelings? did they feel sorry for the businessmen who lost their lives and livelyhoods in those towers? Did they feel sorry for my 2 year old son who had to watch his neighborhood collapse in frront of his eyes? Do they even talk about all of our little kids who, from that day on, would build the "Twin Towers" with their LEGO blocks instead of building some other Disneyland or something? No! they feel sorry for the children of the Terrorists who learn to destroy before they learn to walk! just watch their TV cartoons if you don't beleive me. it's full of "death to America" "Death to producers" "death to life" etc.

On another note, speaking of God, isn't He the most logical being? Just like the skyscrapers didn't build themselves; just like the RailRoads don't run themselves; how can you beleive that the world can run itself? how do you think the blood flows through your body and your heart beats with such perfect rhythm? how does the sun keep burning and the universe keeps revolving around stars? who do you think invented gravity? who invented friction? who invented heat? defying God is like defying existance! 'the day God was invented??' or did you mean 'the day God invented us?'

Edited October 10, 2006 by Marty McFly

[The Wrath]

On another note, speaking of God, isn't He the most logical being? Just like the skyscrapers didn't build themselves; just like the RailRoads don't run themselves; how can you beleive that the world can run itself? how do you think the blood flows through your body and your heart beats with such perfect rhythm? how does the sun keep burning and the universe keeps revolving around stars? who do you think invented gravity? who invented friction? who invented heat? defying God is like defying existance! 'the day God was invented??' or did you mean 'the day God invented us?'

This is a messageboard composed entirely of atheists. You'll have a tough time convincing anyone of any of these things.

[IAmMetaphysical]

On another note, speaking of God, isn't He the most logical being? Just like the skyscrapers didn't build themselves; just like the RailRoads don't run themselves; how can you beleive that the world can run itself? how do you think the blood flows through your body and your heart beats with such perfect rhythm? how does the sun keep burning and the universe keeps revolving around stars? who do you think invented gravity? who invented friction? who invented heat? defying God is like defying existance! 'the day God was invented??' or did you mean 'the day God invented us?'

DING DING DING, we have a theist!

Or maybe a deist.