Amway/quixtar

[distressed_IBO]

Multi-level marketing, network marketing, affiliate marketing, private franchising, etc. are all forms of businesses that rely on word-of-mouth advertising instead of advertising through mass media.

I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with the Amway/Quixtar business, the biggest (and first, I believe) network marketing business.

I've been an Quixtar IBO (Independent Business Owner) for 3 months. I've had doubts from the beginning, but I set those aside, labeling them as fear of contacting prospects. Now that I've gotten much better at contacting strangers, and am making some pocket cash, the doubts have actually grown. The more I see of the business, the less I like it.

My main concern is that I might be sanctioning/approving of a system that is dishonest/evasive. If you memorize and use the lines given to you after you join the business, you will quickly sponsor several people (bring them in the business), each of whom will be asking many questions. Since you don't know all the answers, you just ask your sponsor (the person who brought you in the business) and use whatever answer he gives you. Worst of all, your sponsor does not understand everything either, and is only passing along the phrases he got from his sponsor.

This system of the blind leading the blind strikes me as incredibly dangerous. I suspect that by the time most people start to suspect this, they are making some money (not serious money, but some extra spending money) which they don't want to give up, so they keep up the charade.

The seminars and rallies are incredibly motivational and emotion-charged, and makes it difficult for me to think straight.

Can anyone here who's seen the business from the inside comment on this? I'd like to know if I'm paranoid or if I'm the only one in my IBO team who's both honest and perceptive.

Thanks,

Distressed

[Inspector]

It's not just you. When you peel back all the layers of hype and programmed salesmanship, the only reason to buy their products is so that you can get other people to buy their products. And if that's the case, then what the hell do you tell other people the reason is to buy their products?

If you ask real business questions, you're met with a wall of evasion. If you've made any money at all, count yourself as lucky. If you've sold any actual friends on it, you should level with them and discuss what you've come to know.

[distressed_IBO]

Either I was unclear, or you may have downplayed my concern.

It's not just you. When you peel back all the layers of hype and programmed salesmanship...

If someone can't see through the hype, it's his own fault. Every company that hires salesmen trains them, to the best of my knowledge. What's the distinction between training and programming?

the only reason to buy their products is so that you can get other people to buy their products. And if that's the case, then what the hell do you tell other people the reason is to buy their products?

Tell them exactly what you said. I was told early in the game that if I use the products my downline will copy me. It works. And it's not like I just toss my products in the trash. I use them. Some are exorbitantly priced, but quite a few of them are cost effective.

If you ask real business questions, you're met with a wall of evasion.

This is closest to my concern, which I can't quite identify 100%. Do you have specific examples?

If you've made any money at all, count yourself as lucky.

I count myself as hard working. It's not like it's a scam where they take your money and run. Your income is proportional to the effort you put in, but this is not obvious, because there is a time lag, just like any other business.

If you've sold any actual friends on it, you should level with them and discuss what you've come to know.

I'm trying to get this whole thing straightened out before I sponsor friends.

What I'm trying to get at is: is it okay to endorse/support something that you don't understand 100%? I'm learning as I go, but I suspect that I'll discover something unsavory. Is it moral to keep charging ahead, since I don't have any concrete examples of dishonesty?

Edited May 2, 2006 by distressed_IBO

[softwareNerd]

There are really two questions here:

• should you be selling stuff that you do not believe in?
  
• should you be selling such stuff to friends and acquaintances?
  

I'll address the second, because the distinguishing aspect of network marketing is that one sells to people who have reason to trust you and to think that you are offering them an opinion as a friend rather than as a salesman. To pretend to be giving them friendly advice, when you are actually treating them like a regular customer is dishonest.

Many people who fall for such schemes ought to know better; so, I am not making excuses for them.

However, that does not excuse those who sell to them under the color of friendship. None of my friends has been into Amway, but a few acquaintances were and after the first 5-minutes of pitch from them, I've had nothing to do with them, and never will. I generally think of them as loathsome scum -- basically con-men who were pretending friendship to get a few bucks off me. So, keep that in mind before you start selling to your friends.

[distressed_IBO]

[*]should you be selling stuff that you do not believe in?

This is a non-issue. You are encouraged to sell/promote only items that you have personally used and enjoyed.

[*]should you be selling such stuff to friends and acquaintances?

To pretend to be giving them friendly advice, when you are actually treating them like a regular customer is dishonest.

I don't know why many people take this position. If a dear friend of mine asked me to sit down to see a product or a business, I'll be impressed that s/he took the time and effort in preparation of the presentation. I'm objective with my friends. I'm objective with my money. Why should there be trouble when the two are mixed?

and after the first 5-minutes of pitch from them, I've had nothing to do with them, and never will.

Doesn't this really depend on how that first 5 minutes is presented? Why can't you have a business transaction and still preserve the respect of friendship?

I generally think of them as loathsome scum -- basically con-men who were pretending friendship to get a few bucks off me.

This is the same in reverse. If a salesman, be it automotive, shampoo, or whatever, takes the time to get to know me better, I'll reciprocate and give him more attention.

My sales method basically consists of giving out freebies, telling them that they are found nowhere else on the market, and wait for them to ask me details like the price, shipping time, etc. Why should this change if my client changes from a stranger to a close friend?

I know I've been defending Quixtar, but only because I don't want to quit this business for superficial reasons.

Edited May 2, 2006 by distressed_IBO

[softwareNerd]

Would you be recommending this product if you had zero monetary interest in the sale?

[distressed_IBO]

Like I said, some of the products are more cost effective than the grocery store counterparts, so yes. I don't see why this is relevant. Since you seem to place high importance on the products, let me just give you one example, at the risk of sounding like a pitch: Quixtar is in the practice of buying out good companies with specialized products: it recently bought out Interleukin, which has patents on a product call Gensona, which is a genetic test for IL1 heart disease. This is a little bit beyond soap and shampoo: if today I cancelled my Quixtar account, and tomorrow someone is concerned about hereditary heart disease, then I would recommend Gensona, again, regardless if that person is a friend or a stranger.

I don't mind discussing products and the business model, but my oringinal question was more geared towards the educational system. I have no problem recommending the products and giving the exact same business opportunity that I was given, whether to a friend or to a stranger. I was hoping someone with some experience could offer a second set of eyes.

This business evolves at a rapid pace. If a book, CD, or line does not work, it is thrown out and replaced immediately. An Objectivist friend of mine proudly stated that he does not do anything unless he has a reason for it. In Quixtar, nothing happens unless there are multiple reasons for it. My problem has to do with me supporting/promoting/sanctioning a system that I don't understand 100% of, and might evolve into something I don't approve of.

Edited May 2, 2006 by distressed_IBO

[softwareNerd]

Then I guess I don't fully understand the issue you're trying to resolve. If the products are good and value-for-money, and if folk like you are not required to mis-use friendships, then why does this company need to have a system that is evasive? What purpose does it serve? Are they just bad business-folk, or is there a reason for this evasion that they practice?

[Inspector]

Then I guess I don't fully understand the issue you're trying to resolve. If the products are good and value-for-money, and if folk like you are not required to mis-use friendships, then why does this company need to have a system that is evasive? What purpose does it serve?

EXACTLY. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

OH, and name ONE quixstar product that is more cost effective than the grocery store generic brand. I dare you.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Inspector

[distressed_IBO]

OH, and name ONE quixstar product that is more cost effective than the grocery store generic brand. I dare you.

1) SA8 laundry detergent

2) Glister mouthwash

3) Dishdrops dish detergent

Please don't go down this road unless you've seen a significant part of the business from the inside.

One of the reasons Amway/Quixtar is so successful is because all the common accusations against it are easily refuted. A half baked argument is worse than no argument at all. In this case, superficial arguments against the products only lends more credibility to Quixtar. This causes persons considering Quixtar to believe that all anti-Quixtar messages are from wackos. Like I said, Quixtar is highly evolved, and my sponsors "warned" me against these ahead of time.

One thing I'm trying to figure out is if the evasiveness is inherent in the system or depends on the individual. I know my question is not completely clear, because I'm trying to formulate it as I write it. That's why my original post was to see if anyone here has had any experience in this business.

Edited May 3, 2006 by distressed_IBO

[Capitalism Forever]

When you say "evasiveness," what exactly do you mean? Can you give some concrete instances?

I have had some experience as a customer, and I love it--both the products and being able to buy them from a friend. I think this is much preferable to talking to a random salesman who knows little about my needs and preferences, and whose character I also know little about.

[Bold Standard]

My parents have been in the Amway business since the 80's. They never grew their business very large, and they haven't tried to recruit anyone in years (over a decade) but they still buy the products, and they might even still have a little income from people downline who went on to grow their businesses (I haven't talked to them about it in a few years, so I'm not sure-- but I still see the products in their house so I know they at least still buy them.)

All the information I have is second hand, not from my own experience with the company, since I've had none (besides using the products, which are sometimes exceptional quality.)

I'm not aware of anything inherently evasive or exploitive of friendships in the Amway model. Personally, I sell stuff to friends all the time. I sell and buy guitars and musical equipment from friends and friends of friends. I bought a book from Andy Bernstein that he'd written just because I liked him when I saw him lecture. Nothing wrong that I can see about doing business with friends just because they're your friends. Cuts out all the overhead.

That being said, Amway is a huge operation. Within the corporation, there are lots of people who have been successful enough to have their own "lines" (or whatever the biggest manifestation of that principle is called), and the specific procedures and strategies they employ can very dramatically from one to the next. I wouldn't discount the possibility that there are whole lines that are operating unethically, evasively, or even illegally. I believe the higher-up people do all they can to prevent that, but considering the size of the business, I doubt it would be entirely possible. So be careful. Learn everything you can about who you're working for and what exactly you're getting involved with before you commit yourself (and it seems like that's what you're trying to do.)

One thing the people who sponsored my parents were upfront about, that I've heard some sponsors are not always upfront about, is that most of the money is made not on the products, but from the motivational materials and seminars sold to the salesmen. At least, that's how I understood it when they explained it to me. Most corporations spend lots of money training the employees. Amway makes most of their money training the employees. Maybe there's something pyramid-like about that, but I don't know. Motivation is a valuable asset..

Edited May 3, 2006 by Bold Standard

[Bold Standard]

One thing the people who sponsored my parents were upfront about, that I've heard some sponsors are not always upfront about, is that most of the money is made not on the products, but from the motivational materials and seminars sold to the salesmen. At least, that's how I understood it when they explained it to me. Most corporations spend lots of money training the employees. Amway makes most of their money training the employees. Maybe there's something pyramid-like about that, but I don't know. Motivation is a valuable asset..

Actually, that's not true of Amway as a whole. Just specific organizations and individuals in the company focus more on the motivational things.

[aequalsa]

I was once roped into going to an amway talk by a coworker. He told me that he wanted me to meet his freind about a 'computer business'. I was real skeptical because he was pretty vague about things, but he kept pushing it so I gave in. So short end of the story, he "gaciously" offerred to pick me up which ended in my listening to a 3 hour sales pitch by another guy on amway and their new computer sales thing. (in short, you could order online). The main selling point seemed to be that they saved money on their products by "cutting out the middle man".

So I asked "how can you really save on costs with your product by cutting out one middle man and replacing him with 7?" (for those who don't know, if you get people in it, you get $ plus a percentage of everything they buy-down 7 levels of the pyrimid)

His clever brush-aside reply was "I'm not sure what you mean...next question..you in the corner"

I looked at the catalogues and wasn't real impressed. The prices in general really didn't seem significantly lower then target or walmart and seemed to be about that level of quality. I am sure on any given day some things would be cheaper and others more expensive on an item by item comparison, but the difference did not seem enough to warrant much interest. Besides, the idea of ordering countless small ticket items like soap and what-not makes me weary. Going to the grocery store isn't such a terrible burden.

The main thing that bothered me about it, though, was that the emphasis was not on selling the product like most businesses are, but rather on getting more people, so that they can get more people, so that they can get more people, ... I went through the 3 hour speech and had no idea what they were selling. All I knew was that if I did this I would be rich quickly ad without much effort. In short it struck me as a pyramid with products thrown in to legalize and to some extent legitimize it. If you have the time and like to do other exciting things like clip coupons, then it may make sense to use them for purchasing some of the things you might find deals on. As a business venture, I think it unlikely to succeed for most people. If you are an extraordinarily charasmatic type with dozens of close friends, then you will make money at it with a lot of work. On the other hand, if you are that charasmatic there are plenty of sales positions available where you are selling products rather then people where you may do better. Auto wholeseller's for example make pretty good bank and they sell a product people need. So if you are inclined toward sales I would steer in that direction.

So, to answer you question from my limited experience, I would say that the system is set up to be deliberately vague. It may not be a pyrimid, in the technical sense but as a business model it seems to function in the same way. ie the people at the top get quite a bit, at the bottom, less then minimum wage.

I would be interested to see average pay per hour as a demographic of the company and also the retention rates of "employees" to determine if it was a business where you had a realistic chance of 'promotion'.

Morally, I don't think it's neccessarrily bad-no force is involve just emotional manipulation-but I also don't think it would be good in the sense of deriving pride from your accomplishments. A good day is getting three more people who get 3 more people. Not exactly on par with designing a new type of metal.

Edited May 3, 2006 by aequalsa

[distressed_IBO]

...

Not exactly on par with designing a new type of metal.

Interesting...I'm an engineer who works with metallurgists.

After a few days away from my sponsor and sifting through massive amounts of opinions, from both sides, most of which is garbage, I've concluded that my sponsor is personally evasive, but not the business itself. The posts above are pretty typical, whether online or in person. I was going to compile a list of evasions I've personally seen, but it would require lots more background info. I should be able to provide this info to anyone who is seriously considering these types of businesses.

I think my original question requires more study on the topic of moral sanction and perhaps expertise in psychology and cults.

Edited May 4, 2006 by distressed_IBO

[Inspector]

1) SA8 laundry detergent

2) Glister mouthwash

3) Dishdrops dish detergent

When's the last time you actually bought these things from a store? It has most definitively been my experience that you can achieve a lot lower cost per use with all of those products. I don't have a catalog in front of me, but this was certainly the case the last time I checked.

You do know that they do put things "on sale" at the store.

[softwareNerd]

It is convenient to do business with a friend. Assuming they're a friend, they'll advise you well. So, if one needs a particular product and one has a friend in the business, one would turn to them for advice. Where a typical insurance agent might try to sell you whole-life insurance, a friend may advise you to go with term. However, such of all the products one buys, such contacts are the exception, not the rule.

Network marketing is different. It is about sellers who sell primarily to friends; secondly, it involves bundling the buying decision with a different decision: the value the buyer gets from becoming a seller. There's also the ponzi-like impossibility of having such a scheme work for all, when down-stream selling is a large part of the motivation.

Just now, while putting in sprinklers, the first person I turned to was a friend who has a relative in the business. However, if this relative was dealing exclusively through such networking and if the deal worked only if I factored in the money I was going to make through further recommendations, then I'd be suspicious.

I don't know if one could construct a good Network Marketing scheme; it's just that I have not encountered one.

[Bold Standard]

Network marketing is different. It is about sellers who sell primarily to friends; secondly, it involves bundling the buying decision with a different decision: the value the buyer gets from becoming a seller.

Maybe my perspective is different since I grew up in a small town. If you open any kind of business in Liberty, TX, chances are most of your customers will be friends and family-- because most of the town is friends and family, or friends of friends at least. I've never noticed real conflicts arising from this kind of interaction.

Also, one needn't become a seller of Amway products in order to buy them. It's just, if you become a seller, you can buy them at wholesale. And you can make money from the sales. But some people just buy the products at resale-- they have some good products.

You do know that they do put things "on sale" at the store.

I wonder if this would depend on what part of the country you're from. Because of property taxes, shipping costs, labor costs, etc, it seems costs of the same goods at grocery stores might vary significantly from place to place. Does anyone know if that's true or not? Hmm..

[distressed_IBO]

Hidden behind Quixtar are motivational groups that are both illegal pyramids and brainwashing cults.

Quixtar and motivational groups like Britt World Wide (which I was in) have symbiotic relationships that destroys the minds of anyone who gets involved. BWW (and other groups) engage in brainwashing with the goal of creating zombies that become addicted to the books, CD's, seminars, coliseum functions, etc. BWW needs Quixtar as a cover-up. Quixtar, by itself, is a sound business, but it is corrupt because it has caved-in in its efforts to shut down groups like BWW. If these groups where shut down, Quixtar would not survive the drop in sales.

For the past 3 months, in this business, I've been staring at the gaping mouth of a demon, and I didn't know it until I almost fell in.

BWW is a cult that indoctrinates and gets indoctrinated without anyone in it knowing. Everyone thinks they are participating in an experiment of free enterprise. Most people involved come from well-respected professions like engineers, doctors, CPA's, etc. This cult covers you with a blanket of both comfort and fear, and blocks all exits. People in the cult have absolutely no reason to quit.

http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/

This man's horror story is what I've experienced (and am recovering from) only multiplied by about 100. He was in the business for about 10 years.

I've been trying to de-program myself for the last week or so. I'm not eating and my sleep schedule is shot. I'm constantly looking out the window and checking the lock on my door.

Luckily, I have a rough understanding of the destructive power of false integrations, so I hope to fully recover in a few days.

http://www.amquix.info/dateline/dateline.html

The dateline story above does a decent job of summing it up, but it should have put more emphasis on the distinction between Amway/Quixtar and the motivational organizations hidden behind it.

Note that I am only speaking of organizations such as Britt World Wide and World Wide Dream Builders, both of which I have first hand experience that they are cults. It is possible that there are organizations within Quixtar that are NOT cults. Additionally, I've been to meetings of other network marketing businesses, and I doubt they are cults.

Edited May 8, 2006 by distressed_IBO

[Capitalism Forever]

http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/

All this documentation was put together in a compelling, meticulously documented 296 page book I wrote titled Merchants of Deception. It was written specifically to be a road map for regulators and prosecutors worldwide.

[...]This appears to have been a well organized investment scam, which has culled billions from the public, for the last twenty years. The truth is in the tax returns of the IBO victims and Amway/Quixtar may soon be forced to make those public. If you are contacted by anyone to see Amway or Quixtar, ask them for their last three years tax returns before you consider investing a penny of your money or time into "the business". Ask them if you will be expected to spend near $6,000 a year on Amway or Quixtar products, books, tapes, CD's, DVD's seminars, travel, phone bills, hotels, online services, e-commerce meetings, training sessions and voice mail systems to receive your "average IBO income" of about $115 a month.

So it's a "fraud" and "investment scam" because not everyone who tries it succeeds? Just because some people buy books and DVDs on how to make money and then don't make much money, we need regulations and prosecutions ?? And the mere fact that a company donates to the Republican Party makes it evil? Nice piece of Communist garbage you've linked to, Mr. Distressed! I guess it is safe to assume now that your entire purpose in joining this board has been to allow you to peddle your ... shall we say, Merchandise of Deception?

[distressed_IBO]

That's exactly the sentiment used to keep people from doubting the business. The book is a free download pdf, why would I peddle it?

Try this website:

http://www.formerdiamond.com/

I'll give specific examples from personal experience shortly.

Edited May 8, 2006 by distressed_IBO

[Capitalism Forever]

That's exactly the sentiment used to keep people from doubting the business.

It's not a sentiment, it's an argument. Specifically, I argue that each individual is responsible for the business decisions he makes, and if he ends up earning less than he has invested, then he has himself to blame, not those who have offered him support and encouragement. None of the books etc. in question comes with a guaranteed return on investment; they are offered as material that may be useful for you if you are serious about the business, are willing to put in enough effort, have the abilities and virtues necessary to succeed, and so on. Some people will make lots of money; some people will make less; and some (perhaps a majority) will not even recover the price of the support material. Only an egalitarian would expect everyone to succeed!

The book is a free download pdf, why would I peddle it?

There is peddling for cash, and there is peddling for ideas.

[distressed_IBO]

I am promoting those links now, but that was not the reason I started this thread.

formerdiamond.com is by a former Diamond in the business.

merchantsofdeception is by a former Emerald.

A Diamond has 6 Platinums. An Emerald has 3 Platinums. A Platinum is an IBO with a group that does 7500 BV worth of product volume a month. Last month, I did over 600 BV of volume. 1 BV is approximately $2.50.

All three of us were working hard and making money (from what a gather from those sites). We did not quit because we sucked at the business and became bitter losers. This is exactly what members in the business want people to think. We quit because we discovered the deceptive, brainwashing, illegal pyramid hidden behind Quixtar.

I'm not trying to say that buying a book or two will guarantee wealth. I'm not even saying that performing all the recommened actions will guarantee big business. (Although I have personal experience that this is true.) I am saying that the payouts and the lifestyles are purposely deceptive. And that groups such as BWW are cults that utilize mind control techniques.

I've spent hours on the internet, and these sites, as well as the Dateline movie clip, are the most informative, in my opinion.

[softwareNerd]

I'm curious: can you explain how you went from mildly concerned (in your first post) to committedly anti-Quixtar (now) in the space of about one week?

[distressed_IBO]

When's the last time you actually bought these things from a store?

You do know that they do put things "on sale" at the store.

I shopped at the grocery store once a week when I was in the business. Like I said, some Quixtar items are overpriced, but some are favorable. Quixtar also has promotional sales.

I'm curious: can you explain how you went from mildly concerned (in your first post) to committedly anti-Quixtar (now) in the space of about one week?

I'm good at introspection and identifying false integrations. I've been discussing this with many people, on and off this forum. I've been losing sleep browsing websites. I was not mildly concerned, I was distressed. I'm anti-Quixtar only because it knowingly condones the motivational cults. I was personally participating in the cult, so I have a deep-seated grudge.

I was to stress that the products, the network marketing aspect, and the selling to friends aspects are not my focus. My focus is the motivational organization that you unknowingly sign up for when you sign up for Quixtar.

My sponsor was an expert at half-truths and evasion, but I thought that was just him. I didn't know that it was typical under this type of organization.

BWW is mostly in the east coast, United Kingdom, and Canada. WWDB is the west coast and else where.

Instead of looking only at my sponsor, I looked at the rules of the system as a whole. Two BWW rules raised red flags:

1) Consult upline, but don't discuss business crossline or downline.

2) Don't pass negative.

The first rule is justified by saying that only your upline has a vested interest in your business. If you make a lot of money, your upline will get a percentage for sponsoring you.

This rule creates a dependency and a phobia against discussing business with anyone except your upline. At the meetings, if you mention your own business or ask someone about theirs, they freak out as though you've committed a mortal sin.

The second rule is justified by saying: spread negative and you'll get negative back. Spread positive and you'll have a positive business.

This rule causes everyone in the business to be afraid of pointing out suspicious activity. If you question your upline or anything or anyone in the business, you're met with scornful looks.

This may seem silly to some of you, but you are not introduced to these rules until you have (unknowingly) undergone some of the mind-control techniques already.

My point is, anyone interested in a network marketing business needs to watch out for these types of rules. These are not Quixtar rules, they are motivational organization rules. They can't enforce these rules, but if you break then, you are outcast by both your upline and your downline.

Also, these rules are listed with obvious rules like: "Don't mess with anyone's money" and "Don't mess with anyone's spouse" which package-deals them and makes them seem innocuous.

http://www.freedomofmind.com/

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecente...amway/index.htm

That website is run by a cult expert and lists Quixtar/Amway as a possible cult. I had first hand experience that it is a cult.

Edited May 8, 2006 by distressed_IBO