I Might Change My Mind On This

[Styles2112]

I've argued for the protection of innocents in this war on terror for sometime now. However articles like this make me think twice. I actually think that Muslim leadership needs to be taken out swift and hard as an example for anyone making proclamations like this. This is a scary, and possibly true though (especially shown that short story a couple threads down.

GLOBAL JIHAD

Gadhafi: Islam taking over Europe

Notes progress, sees 'victory' within a few decades

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: May 3, 2006

1:00 a.m. Eastern

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

Moammar Gadhafi

Islam will take over Europe without violent force within a few decades, said Libyan Leader Moammar Gadhafi in a speech aired on the Arab satellite network Al Jazeera.

"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe," Gadhafi said. "There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe – without swords, without guns, without conquests. The 50 million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

If Turkey is added to the European Union, the Libyan leader said, Europe will have another 50 million Muslims.

Albania, a Muslim-majority country, and Bosnia, which is half Muslim, also appear to be on their way to EU membership.

"Europe is in a predicament, and so is America," Gadhafi said. "They should agree to become Islamic in the course of time, or else declare war on the Muslims."

Excerpts of Gadhafi's speech, broadcast April 10, were translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute, or MEMRI. A video clip of the speech can by viewed online.

Gadhafi emphasized Muslims view Muhammad the prophet not only of the Arabs or Muslims but "of all people."

"He superseded all previous religions," Gadhafi said. "If Jesus were alive when Muhammad was sent, he would have followed him. All people must be Muslims."

He said Christians believe Muhammad is not their prophet because their holy texts "are forged and call for hatred."

"The so-called Old Testament and New Testament are neither Old Testament nor New Testament – because both testaments were superseded, and they are forged," he said. "They were written by hand hundreds of years after Jesus."

Gadhafi continued: "In the Bible there are things that are inappropriate for both Jesus and Moses. If we want to mend the state of humanity, and live in a global village, because of the globalization, we must search for the true Bible, because the Bible that exists today is a forgery. Today's Bible does not mention Muhammad, whereas our Lord's Bible mentions Muhammad repeatedly."

I like the last part though. I read it as,"My stupidity supercedes your stupidity."

[FeatherFall]

How does this relate to innocents in wartime? I see it as a veiled declaration of war against non-Muslims, but why might this change your mind?

[Xyhm]

I've argued for the protection of innocents in this war on terror for sometime now. However articles like this make me think twice. I actually think that Muslim leadership needs to be taken out swift and hard as an example for anyone making proclamations like this. This is a scary, and possibly true though (especially shown that short story a couple threads down.

I like the last part though. I read it as,"My stupidity supercedes your stupidity."

Here are some writings by Fjordman dealing with Sweden and the problems the Muslims are causing here:

The New York Times and Sweden: The Dark Side of Paradise

and

Immigrant Rape Wave in Sweden

and an article by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard on Muslims in Denmark: Something Rotten in Denmark?

Here are some quotes from the last article:

"Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes."

"Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark's Muslim population grows large enough - a not-that-remote prospect. If present trends persist, one sociologist estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in 40 years will be Muslim."

"Third-world immigrants - most of them Muslims from countries such as Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iraq - constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending. "

[Hal]

Isnt Turkey relatively secular, despite being almost entirely Muslim? I mean its not a bastion of human freedom or anything like that, but its hardly comparable to Iran either. You cant just say "there are X million Muslims in Europe" without considering what type of Muslims they are - what percentage are fundamentalists, moderates, etc? Gadhafi is obviously a lunatic though, but then Libya arent really a major threat to anyone at the moment so I suppose he can pretty much say whatever he likes without anyone bothering to retaliate. In any case, I doubt that killing him would help to stop the spread of Islam in Europe.

I think European countries tend to have problems with immigration in general, especially in places which have a history of being almost entirely homogenous (white people only). Its not like America where you have a fairly racially diverse culture with a lot of people being third-fourth generation immigrants - there tends to be fair amount of scepticism towards those who come in from elsewhere in Europe, especially when they arent white. Many people in Britain seem to be absurdly racist at the moment for example, and in a recent election one of the mainstream parties (Conservatives) pretty much based their whole campaign around reducing immigration levels. And in the other direction, a lot of immigrants do seem to isolate themselves from the rest of the culture and make no real attempt to integrate - religion is probably a factor here when it comes to Muslims, since its one of the things that does tend to bind a culture together strongly. In any case, I would say that immigration and cultural integration are perhaps two of _the_ big European issues, and this may be hard for Americans to understand since I believe that the situation over there is quite different, and not as much of a problem.

As such, I'm not sure that you could single out Muslims as causing trouble any more than black people for instance - I'm under the impression that immigrants tend to be responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime regardless of their religion, although I dont have stats offhand to back this up. I would also assume that this is closely related to poverty - if most Muslims (/immigrants) are poor then you would expect them to be responsible for a higher than average level of crime regardless of their religious beliefs. I dont want to discount specific cultural factors entirely since they may indeed be an issue (the part about Muslim attitudes towards women in connection with rape is interesting for instance), but I would guess its a lot more complicated than "Muslims cant fit into Western society!" or whatever. Id be interested in seeing statistics that broke things down in terms of how immigrant crime levels compared to native people around the same income level, or how they differed between first and second/third generation immigrants and so on.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Hal

[DamnGirl]

What disturbs me greatly is the continued abuse against women in the Muslim culture. There are women living in Europe right now who are basically slaves and are never permitted to leave their apartments. Those who escape live with the constant fear of reprisals (aka, murder) from family members. Unfortunately, countries like Germany have done little to address the problem, so I can only consider the government complicit in this abuse.

I realize that there are many who do not enslave or abuse women, but, unfortunately, attitudes about Muslims are often swayed by stories such as these (I would argue understandably). As long as this kind of behavior is going on in "developed" nations, it seems difficult to imagine relations improving with the non-Muslims in those countries.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12812607/

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/internatio...,344374,00.html

[Xyhm]

I wish I had the time to discuss this interesting topic further (I might, in a few weeks). But let me at least recommend the following book to anyone who is interested: While Europe Slept : How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within

[DavidOdden]

Isnt Turkey relatively secular, despite being almost entirely Muslim? I mean its not a bastion of human freedom or anything like that, but its hardly comparable to Iran either.

Relative to what? Iran, yeah. Albania and Bosnia, no. The important question is not whether the governemnt still maintains a nominally secular facade, but whether things are getting worse or better there. There has been an increase in religious sentiment in Turkey, partially fueled by the government's stupid clamp-down on women in bags, so when they decreed that head-bags were illegal in universities, this naturally caused thousands of them to start wearing the head-bag. I would say that Turkey is about as religiously secular as the US is. And I'm worried about the US, in case that needs to be said.

[dan_edge]

Shayne Wrote:

I've argued for the protection of innocents in this war on terror for sometime now. However articles like this make me think twice.

I know what you mean. The more I read about what is going on in the world, and the more I think about it, the closer I come to the view that winning the war against terrorism is more important than risking harm to non-combatent. This kind of writing makes clear that the leaders in the international muslim community are dedicated to global domination. I just hope that the USA does something about it before the problem comes to a head.

--Dan Edge

[DamnGirl]

Relative to what? Iran, yeah. Albania and Bosnia, no. The important question is not whether the governemnt still maintains a nominally secular facade, but whether things are getting worse or better there. There has been an increase in religious sentiment in Turkey, partially fueled by the government's stupid clamp-down on women in bags, so when they decreed that head-bags were illegal in universities, this naturally caused thousands of them to start wearing the head-bag. I would say that Turkey is about as religiously secular as the US is. And I'm worried about the US, in case that needs to be said.

Agreed on all counts.