An Attraction To Underage Girls/boys

[Bold Standard]

Consent is consent is consent.

Any argument which is a reference to a Gertrude Stein poem is thereby invalidated.

To regard inappropriate emotions in a negative moral light is profoundly dangerous because it will lead one to repress one's emotions which not only reduces the quality of one's life by making it difficult to enjoy the many wonderful emotional experiences which are appropriate but also makes it much more difficult to understand and correct the source of one's inappropriate emotions. Unfortunately, I have occasionally run into students of Objectivism over the years who have done just that.

It's even more dangerous for an Objectivist to repress his emotions than a normal person, because then it makes Nathaniel Branden seem like he's right. (He's not, though-- as Dismukes more profound analysis of the Objectivist position on emotional repression reveals).

[Qwertz]

I think I can see your point insofar that the experience of the emotion in and of itself is not immoral, but I think it, in a great number of cases, it belies a moral failure in some other area, as I discussed previously, be it invalid principles, or the failure to address emotional conflict. To clarify using your suggested wording, to have an attraction based essentially on age is inappropriate, and such relationships, if executed, are immoral. As for age as an accessory factor, like I said before, it depends.

I still hold, however, that having a desire one knows to be inappropriate and not working to correct it is immoral.

-Q

Edited June 16, 2006 by Qwertz

[raptix]

edit: I suppose you can say that 20 year olds sleeping with 15 year olds is wrong due to the age difference alone, but then I'd expect you to also believe that 30 year olds sleeping with 18 year olds is wrong for similar reasons.

I suppose you can say Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta Jones are 25 years apart.

When you're younger though. 1/15th of your life is a bigger piece of your life than 1/20th.

They have a saying here in Australia.

Your age, take 7.

18 - 7 = 11

Yuck.

But if I were 25 - 7 = 18

I guess I can see abit of sense in it (as girls tend to like much older men here).

Consider the 1/15th and 1/20th example.

Wasn't Nathaniel Brandon half Ayn Rands age when they did it?

Having your partner be 1/2 your age is very different than 3/4ths (15 years to 20) from the perspective of the 'older person' and if they even evaluate these fractions including other factors before they contemplate a relationship.

If the Aussie Blokey "your age take 7" is close to the truth for most people the girl I marry is probably 11....yuck...

#edit: Here, it's very common for blokey males here to say "is she more than 7 years younger than you?" "yes" "then don't go near it"

Edited June 26, 2006 by raptix

[konerko14]

I wonder how often a parent is physically or sexually attracted to their own child. I say this because their child is probably somewhat similar to either the father or mother. Meaning if the father is attracted to his significant other who he had the child with, the father may be attracted to their daughter as well since the mother/daughter will probably be similar.

Do you think its uncommon that parents feel an attraction towards their child?

[LaszloWalrus]

I think it's pretty rare that parents are attracted to their children in a romantic or sexual sense. Sure, a mother, a mother may find her son handsome or a father may find his daughter pretty in a highly general sense, but it seems to me that attraction would be highly rare based simply on the nature of their relationship.

[aleph_0]

Okay, well, Mom's promised me to give me some links to good articles and studies showing proof of the psychological damage done to children who are victims of sexual abuse from adults.

But in the mean time, I'll relay the brief synopsis of why, she claims, it is damaging. At least, to the best of my understanding, being as I'm not a psychologist.

She said it is believed to be connected to the child's developing notion of "self." Cognitively, children under a certain age have not learned to fully differentiate between themselves and the outside world, or other people. An infant is astonished when he realizes that he can control his own fingers and toes, but he can not control his crib, his pillow, a wall, or other objects in the same way-- he can hit them and move them, maybe if they're small enough, but he can't make them move with his mind. The subsequent development of ego, and of personal boundaries, can be seen as a sort of continuation of this process.

When an adult attempts to initiate sexual acts with a child, he is essentially intruding the child's personal space, and therefore the child's fragile, immerging sense of self. What the research demonstrates is that these kids-- whether they are actually raped, or experience much milder forms of molestation-- tend to express in various ways that they have experienced a sense of being violated. Throughout their lives, these kids tend to have problems with identity and personal boundary issues.

On top of that, since sexual acts with children are illegal, and most pedophiles don't want to be caught, and for various other reasons including a lust for control, or outright sadism, etc, in most cases of molestation, the pedophile will add to the sexual abuse other forms of psychological abuse. The adult might tell the child that if anyone finds out, he will kill the child's parents. Or he might encourage the child to lie using other incentives. Threatening the child's security, encouraging the child to adopt a policy of secrecy and dishonesty, sheltering him from other adults who might have the child's interests in mind, isolates the child and breeds all kinds of psychological problems.

It's often noted that at a certain point the child will express to the adult that he feels something is wrong-- that the child is not comfortable with the molestation, for various reasons. At this point it is common for the molester to blame the child. To say that it's the child's fault, and make him feel that he "deserves" it. Of course this causes all kinds of problems.

And finally-- there is the horrible, ugly, physical side of sexual abuse. If we're talking about pre-pubescent children, here.. Their bodies are not large enough to sustain sexual intercourse with an adult. If this is attempted, it can cause permanent physical damage, that will scar the child for the rest of his life. [Edit: In fact, it can kill the child.]

Um, but my mom says she can supply me with factual data supporting all this in just a few "clicks." So when she does that, I'll post some links here. I just have to convince her to get online and actually do it. : )

Oh, yeah. I mentioned this to my mom, too, because I'd never heard of this "custom." She said that, based on the evidence she's seen, this is a myth. She said Plato has a dialogue or something where he mentions older men educating and developing younger boys while enjoying their youth. But he never says anything to suggest having sex with the boys. She says she thinks modern pedophiles are distorting what was in fact an innocent custom of the Greeks, stretching it to imply a sexual relationship, when in fact the relationship described was entirely "Platonic."

But I haven't read this, in Plato's works, or in any other description of Greek culture. Does anyone know where it can be found?

[edit-- Also, I might add, my mom's not a scholar of Ancient Greece, and I know about as much about the period as she does. Except that she's heard of this claim from pedophiles, whereas for me it's completely new.]

Sorry for getting back so late. I read this and typed a response which got lost and I haven't felt like re-typing since. I know that, in Plato's Symposium, he mentions how Greek sexual relationship function between men and boys (the men educate the boys and enjoy their youth), and it is, to my memory, overtly sexual. I'll go home and re-read it, it's a short read. Also, my professor indicated that it's pretty historically solid that this was common Greek practice, and if you do a Wiki search on sexual abuse you'll find a lot of information on other cultures which practice sexual interaction with youths (some practices are very extreme and, from an American persective, very odd). They are sometimes homosexual in nature.

As for the rest, I wonder if that data shows that children over say the age of 14 who simply have sexual contact but no other psychological harm, are still psychologically harmed by the sexual contact alone.

In any case, interesting information.

[konerko14]

If you think a person is beautiful, does that mean you are also physically attracted to them? While I was looking through some ads in the paper, I saw child and teenage models in them. Then I wondered how does one choose a child/teenage model for their ad if they are not attracted to them or at least find them beautiful? I think if most people looked through these ads with younger models in them, they would also notice that they are good looking. That is, essentially, why those models are choosen- because they are good looking. If the majority of people didnt find beauty in child/teenage models then the ads would feature random kids in there instead. So I think most everybody finds certain children/teenagers attractive, it just varies upon the intensity of the attraction.

[JASKN]

There is a difference between finding someone attractive and finding him sexually attractive.

Try it yourself: take the sex that you do not find sexually attractive, and think of some people within that sex that you think are good-looking. Or, use kids. I'll bet you can think of some kids you find cute and some you find ugly. But are you sexually attracted to any of them?

[konerko14]

There is a difference between finding someone attractive and finding him sexually attractive.

Try it yourself: take the sex that you do not find sexually attractive, and think of some people within that sex that you think are good-looking. Or, use kids. I'll bet you can think of some kids you find cute and some you find ugly. But are you sexually attracted to any of them?

Maybe to get sexual feelings toward someone you need to find that person attractive enough. I just dont think I get sexually aroused by guys because I dont find them anywhere near as attractive as the girls that turn me on. I think the ones that you find most physically attractive are the ones that you are most sexually attracted to. Isnt that what causes the physical sensation- the fact that you find them beautiful? The more beautiful, the stronger the sexual desire.

But I think you also have to factor in a persons mind and personality. If two people are equally physically attractive to you, but one has a good mind and the other is dumb, then one or the other will now become more sexually attractive to you depending what you personally value. So lets use some numbers to illustrate my point. Both the people received 5 points for their beauty. Say the perceiver values intelligence in a person, so the smart person gets 10 points added to her score, while the other gets 8 points deducted. The two people were equal initially but then their scores got adjusted once the entire equation was calculated.

[mweiss]

Japan has been, for much of history, a comparitively sexually-liberated nation, in some rather unusual ways.

I have a book by Nicholas Bornoff, entitled, "Pink Samurai: Love Marriage and Sex in Contemporary Japan". There is a chapter which discusses the age old tradition, now mostly discontinued in modern Japan, known as "Yobai". This is the closest thing to an underage orgy that we may ever find documented historical evidence to support the existence of.

Occuring after the Shinto rice-planting ceremonies or on certain auspiscious days, yobai (night creeping) may have originated as a means of getting around the odl bans on the sacred orgy. In traditional yobai celebrations, the youths would leave and cruise silently around the village in groups. Standing outside a house inhapbited by a local girl, they would play janken-pon (scissors-paper-stone) and the lucky winner would sleep with her.

The average farmhouse gnerally had only one floor, althoguh some were raised on stilts, the area underneath being used as a woodpile and for housing the bath and ltrine. Rooms generally gave out onto a veranda or outdoors, which no doubt gratly facilitated the custom. Tiwht the tacit sanction of parents who had no doubt found their lifeling mate in the same way, girls simply left the doors of their rooms open for the occasion. The other boys, meanwhile, would make their way to the next house.

Yobai was common knowlege, but it had to be discreet. In some cases, before entering the young maiden's room, the young Lothario urinated against the base of the sliding door to prevent any noise when it was drawn open against the saturated groove. Rather as with the spraying of a tomcat, the reek informed any other youbai aspirants that the house had already been visited.

And not all the young women ended their evening with a single postulant. Many a bawdy yobai tale tells of ladies of a generous disposition, and these no doubt hold a kernal of truth. In many instances, the process was sspiced with voyeurism. As some erotic prints show, voyeurism is not seen as a perersion, but a perfectly normal sexual stimulus in Japan.

Many of you have already covered other points that I was going to touch upon.

Some of them being:

I think that older men are attracted to the innocence of young females. They are perceived as untouched, uncorrupted, un-jaded.

Young females (although less and less so today) have been generally healthier and more physically-fit than females past the teen years. Obescity has reached unprecidented levels in the US and with it, many of our children are in the lead for this new 'disease', despite this being a culture that puts thinness on a pedestal. Many will note that many females in their late teens and early 20s have the skintone of a 40-year-old. Perhaps from too much sun, bad diet, bad heredity, they look like old maids before their time. Since we are genetically-programmed to seek out healthy young females to bear our young, we naturally gravitate toward the ones who are spry, tight and perky, as opposed to tired, obesce and sagging.

Psychological factors come into play as well: Older females often have developed jaded attitudes (especially Americans raised in the US) and come across as too 'sophisticated' and threatening, especially to males who are psychologically naive to some extent. Very young females tend to have not formed these psychological warefare tools, and are much more approachable.

Then there is the other factor, one that I always seemed to run into: by the time the goods ones turn 18, they're all engaged to be married to some other guy. So if you were going to get something, you had to look to their younger sister for hope. My father affectionately called these girls "corral stuff".

Fortunately for me, I found the answer to my dilemma in Asia. I married a much younger girl (it is not uncommon for an aging, potbellied, bald guy to marry a filipina of 29 years) whom I found attractive in all the important ways. I was willing to overlook the fact that she was a Catholic and she was willing to overlook the fact that I thought all religion was a con job. We married for love and, while we may not have the most intellectual relationship on earth, we have had many years of stability and we are raising our first child, who is now 2-1/2 and adorable and well-adjusted.

Getting back to the ethics and politics of under-age relationships, I think an important factor here is that children under 18 are minors in our modern society, in which others are financially and legally responsible for their well-being. While this may not be ideal, it is an acceptable rule of thumb that the party providing support be the one to decide the welfare of their child.

A few hundred years ago, some great warrior-kings were at the pinnacle of their power at age 14. Many died before age 18, usually due to war, famine or disease.

I see that there is some logic in the old saying "if they're old enough to bleed, they're old enough to breed," however, modern society has both dumbed-down childhood, while at the same time stuffed their heads full of PC crap. Many children are not emotionally ready for a relationship. And if you look at the rate of teen pregnancy, it is for good reason that we protect our children. Can you imagine the anarchist orgy that would ensue if all restrictions to child sex were lifted? We might well sink into the 14th century barbarism if such a rush were to ensue.

Some miscellaneous thoughts in response to some posts:

I strongly disagree with the person who stated that driving is safest done by the very young. Accident statistics show that drivers age 16-18 are involved in more fatal crashes than any other age group. Why is this? I have two theories: testosterone and lack of wisdom. Young males, particularly, are competitive creatures. When they get behind the wheel of an auto, they find themselves in the perfect arena to act out their aggressions. They lack the wisdom and experience to understand cause and effect. They are living in the moment, not thinking ten, twenty years down the road as they drive. So they dragrace through that intersection, not realizing that there could be a drunk driver running a red light in the intersection they are crossing. What the young folks may have in reflexes and skills, we old folks make up for in wisdom. We learn to compensate for our physical shortcomings. We seem almost prescient and psychic, somehow knowing that over the crest of the next hill, will come a driver whose over the center line and heading straight into our lane. Young people lack that sense in MOST cases. Most survive out of sheer luck.

The desire to be with one's 'dream mate' is strong in a lot of us. When we are young, it is the driving force of our passion about everything in life. As you reach old age, this passion can weaken, or even die, and when it does, you become but an empty shell of the person you once were. I myself fear that I married 30 years to late in life and that my passion days are behind me, as I find it hard to be passionate about anything much these days, except sleeping. When I was a young man, I used to believe that if I could marry any one of the girls I was attracted to when I was in high school, that I could be superman and rule the world. Alas, given the fact that I was dealt the short end of the genetic chain, nearly everyone of my peers found me repulsive and dispicable, visually. Since I also lacked the mental faculty to emphasize personality, I remained a single, lonely many for many decades. But I was always 16 in my heart and still wanted to marry the image of those girls one whom I had high school crushes. Fortunately, having co-founded the bald and potbellied old man's anime club with a friend of common interest, I discovered Asian females and found that a girl 20-something from Japan can be 'off the charts' in the attractiveness area. Even though I'm married for quite a while now to my charming wife, we still joke about her attraction to Tom Cruise and my attraction to Go-Go Yubari from the movie "Kill Bill".

[tnunamak]

There should definitely be age limits to certain behaviors (sex, alchohol, driving, cigarettes, drugs, etc.) because only someone with a fully developed rational faculty (something a child does not have) is able to make decisions on these issues.

I thought that's what parents were for.

Edit: When it comes to things such as driving, or anything that has the potential to harm others, the law should do its job to protect people by ensuring that drivers, etc are competent. I think using an age limit for this is lazy and also dangerous, as age might have a correlation with responsibility or capability, but does not guarantee it. I'd feel safer on the road with 10 year old drivers who passed rigorous exams than 25 year old drivers who aren't able to stay in their own lanes.

Edited August 8, 2007 by tnunamak

[y_feldblum]

When it comes to things such as driving, or anything that has the potential to harm others, the law should do its job to protect people by ensuring that drivers, etc are competent. I think using an age limit for this is lazy and also dangerous, as age might have a correlation with responsibility or capability, but does not guarantee it. I'd feel safer on the road with 10 year old drivers who passed rigorous exams than 25 year old drivers who aren't able to stay in their own lanes.

I'd prefer a government compatible with Capitalism. Such a government would not subsidize roads, nor would it tax the public to pay for roads. It would leave private developers free to build roads and to institute whichever age restrictions they deem appropriate.

[tnunamak]

I'd prefer a government compatible with Capitalism. Such a government would not subsidize roads, nor would it tax the public to pay for roads. It would leave private developers free to build roads and to institute whichever age restrictions they deem appropriate.

Fair enough, I agree with you there.