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My Reliance On The Acceptance Of Others: A Flaw That Needs Fixing

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Not more than two weeks ago, I was a Collectivist, and a Christian. After finishing Atlas Shrugged, I immediately discovered the flaws in my life. The idea of living for one's own sake, and no one else's, was already an idea that I considered part of my values; unfortunately, it was overshadowed by my Collectivist side. However, I've shattered my old ideas and worked towards knowing Objectivism.

The basic principles of Objectivism have already been realized by myself, it's just some of the technical issues that need work. Thus, it's not the importance of the principle that troubles me, nor the principle itself; it's living with the principle and applying it to pratical life, where it matters most. My problem is with my social status, and how others view me.

It's really my interaction with a specific group of people that bothers me. There are two guys that I strongly dislike, for their outright immaturity. They laugh at the simplest of jokes, find humor in informal language ("lols poop, basically), etc. They are of absolute no rational value to me.

However, I put up with their incompetence; worse yet, I sacrifice my time to tell them jokes, when I have no value to gain from them. It is an utter waste of my time dealing with them, and yet I always fall back on them when I have no one else to talk to. Their laughter is of no value to me, whereas I find value in making others laugh ("others" meaning a specific group of people, not the whole of humanity other than them). Therefore, I'd like to just completely ignore them, and not give them any attention.

Now, it is possible that I find value in the social interaction with them. While their laughter makes no difference to me (I always feel an emptiness after telling them a joke), something drives me to talk to them rather than keeping to myself. I suppose a likely answer is simply: I value the social sanction of others, even if they're intellectually lacking (they have enough in common with me that I would prefer them over others who lack intellect).

I define social sanction here as: the accpetance of another man purely for his social status. To permit another man to be "cool". For exmaple, when someone at school says that I'm "cool", I refer to that as social sanction. Typically, "cool" refers to my chatting with others, telling jokes, and the like. Hard to define, I know.

Rambling, eh. I'll try and keep this next part short.

I'm finding that social sanction is controlling my life over Objectivism; that I'm betraying my values in exchange for a zero, a zero of not being called "weird, abnormal, not-right". Even though I don't value Christianity, I still felt compelled to stand up today during church and admit that I believe in God. I found it horribly painful. Even if I value the social sanction of others, it was clearly a sacirifce I made today; the value of that social sanction was not as great as the value of obeying my values.

And thus is my question: how can I work to devoid myself of the need of social sanction? How can I learn to ignore the fact that a room of 100+ people who believed I was Christian, now no longer see me as normal? I know that what they say doesn't matter, I understand that principle. But I just can't seem to live it.

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And thus is my question: how can I work to devoid myself of the need of social sanction? How can I learn to ignore the fact that a room of 100+ people who believed I was Christian, now no longer see me as normal? I know that what they say doesn't matter, I understand that principle. But I just can't seem to live it.

To start, you might try finding new people to hang with. Also spend less time at church. So replace dumb laugh friends witrh people you enjoy the company of more. People who challenge you and make you think. People who share your values to at least some extent. So when Bob the idiot asks you to come over and tell jokes, you can apology for already having plans with John and Francisco the objectivists. No need for a big break. My experience has been that relationships require time and effort and if you stop providing them the relationship will wither away. I havn't tried it with a whole church full of people, but it sounds like fun. ^_^

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First of all, congratulations on your conversion! Not only does it take alot of intelligence to understand Ayn Rand's work, but it also takes alot of courage to give up very deeply held beliefs that will have life altering consequences. I promise you that if you stick to your new philosophy, those consequences will be very, very good!

Anyways, I don't think you need to beat yourself up about what happened in church. It's obvious that you're a very contientious person and so lying hurts, but that event, just like every other time you've professed belief in god is in the past. I know it's worse when you don't mean it, but it's still in the past. I've never had to defend my beliefs in front of 100 people, but I've had to do it in front of 4 or 5 and it's tough, but trust me it's alot easier to defend beliefs than it is attitudes that result from those beliefs. Beliefs, even when they're based on faith, seem much farther away and easier to deal with than having a disagreement about whether or not you'll practice them. Haha, so now you have something to look forward to next weekend when you're confronted with the practical matter of actually going to church!

That you've only been an Objectivist for a couple of weeks, it's no surprise that the attitude of wanting to please others to avoid conflict or to be accepted is still there. Eventually it will go away. Actually, anyone that matures - learns more about reality and behaves in accordance with it - goes through that process.

Also, I don't quite understand; why don't those people see you as normal any more? Did you end up denouncing god in front of them afterall?

If you stick to what you know is right, you're virtually guaranteed to face some tough times. In fact, when it comes to social and political situations, Objectivists rarely avoid suffering - but when it's over and you've maintained your integrity, it's a rare precious moment in life that too few people ever get to experience.

As for your friends, I think aequalsa's comments are right on. I only have one other piece of advice: Unless you haven't already done so, learn the more intricate details of Objectivist metaphysics and epistemology before you start taking on complex ethical questions like social metaphysics. I wish I had induced Objectivism this way instead of bumping into it as a result of being a political junkie. You seem like you're clear-headed enough that even if you do have to put up with immature people just to feel good while you're doing it, you won't really be all that affected by it.

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If I understand your position correctly, you think that there is no value spending time with those guys yet your emotions clearly "want" to have you spend time with them.

First, I would ask you to introspect and to understand that what element of theirs attracts you to them? It will not be an easy job but you have to analyze your emotions to find the solution.

When you understand that element of attraction, judge whether it is something which is of any value to your life or not.

If it is not of value, then follow your mind and stop interacting with them. Your emotions will eventually follow.

Be aware though that it takes time to fully reprogram the emotional responses to different situations so don't damn yourself if your emotions are not as they should be.

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@Zephyr Delta: I think I'm in the same boat, as you are.

I have introduced myself into Objectivism just a couple of weeks ago. And I know what you are talking about wasting time with people from whom you get no value, but the social interaction. (So, I end up sitting their with them after movie,etc. , feeling bored, and knowing that I'm wasting my time, when I could be programming my project.)

I've been doing mostly what has been proposed in this thread. Though, I have something to add what hasn't been addressed.

I think some of that wanting to interact comes from social teaching we receive. "Why are you sitting home all alone, go and meet some friends!" etc. Make sure you don't have such ideas placed into you that you are following instead of your own brain.

Another thing is that people who are logical and actually go along with Objectivism, or at least can challenge you to think are quite rare, so it takes some time to find them. This forum helps a bit.

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Not more than two weeks ago, I was a Collectivist, and a Christian. After finishing Atlas Shrugged, I immediately discovered the flaws in my life. The idea of living for one's own sake, and no one else's, was already an idea that I considered part of my values; unfortunately, it was overshadowed by my Collectivist side. However, I've shattered my old ideas and worked towards knowing Objectivism.

You are being unrealistic to think you can completely reverse the course of years of decisions and thinking in two weeks. It's certainly a good idea to analyze your ideas in light of reading Atlas Shrugged, but it will take a lot more time, and much more reading before you come to a solid understanding. My advice would be to continue reading Ayn Rand's works, including her non-fiction, and being patient -- it takes time to integrate the ideas into one's life and thinking. With time, you will find your emotional responses come into line with the the philosophy.

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It seems to me that the only value I can get from them is satisfaction of my need for socialization. I do try to surround myself with intelligent people, but there are certain times when I simply can't. English class, for example. There's no one in that class that I truly wish to converse with, yet I still feel a natural desire to converse with them. Bascially, I don't like them, and I don't want to talk to them, but my desire for socialization is stronger; and I have to talk to someone: thus, it becomes them I converse with.

The best answer I can come up with is to, as tommyedison suggested, stop interacting with them. My emotions should soon follow my mind. It probably is just a matter of being new to Objectivism.

aequalsa, it seems I've mixed up my tenses. What I actually meant to say is "How can I learn to ignore the fact that a room of 100+ people who believed I was Christian, now no longer see me as normal, if I denounce Christianity in front of them? I haven't done so yet, but I'll have to some time in the near future. Since church is no longer of any value to me, I'm going to ask my parents if I can opt not to attend it. Regardless of their answer, the adults at my church who trusted me will undoubtedly find out that I've left Chrisitanity and question me, and I'll have to defend my position. I know in my mind that what I'm fighting for is the right thing, and that their opinions matter not; it just might be a while before I can fully integrate that principle into living my life.

However, there is some scientific evidence suggesting that social interaction is necessary to the survival of man. Though it's an irrational fear, I worry sometimes that my interaction with these incompetents may be necessary to satisfying my physical need for socialization. I guess I'll just have to prove to myself that I don't require an excessant amount of interaction with others.

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There's no one in that class that I truly wish to converse with, yet I still feel a natural desire to converse with them. Bascially, I don't like them, and I don't want to talk to them, but my desire for socialization is stronger; and I have to talk to someone: thus, it becomes them I converse with.

There is nothing wrong with feeling a desire to share ideas, I too love sharing ideas. That doesn't indicate a desire for the sanction of others.

aequalsa, it seems I've mixed up my tenses. What I actually meant to say is "How can I learn to ignore the fact that a room of 100+ people who believed I was Christian, now no longer see me as normal, if I denounce Christianity in front of them? I haven't done so yet, but I'll have to some time in the near future. Since church is no longer of any value to me, I'm going to ask my parents if I can opt not to attend it. Regardless of their answer, the adults at my church who trusted me will undoubtedly find out that I've left Chrisitanity and question me, and I'll have to defend my position. I know in my mind that what I'm fighting for is the right thing, and that their opinions matter not; it just might be a while before I can fully integrate that principle into living my life.

It is possible that you are judging yourself too hastily. For instance, you say that in your opinion, you can't ignore them because you feel that their opinions matter. However feeling that someone else's opinion matters doesn't mean that you want acceptance from others, especially when it is the opinion of a person you like/respect.

If I were in your position, one of my tests would be what exactly do I feel about them. Do I feel afraid that they don't agree with me or do I feel sad that they don't agree with me? Do feel more interested in ideas or more interested in approval of others?

Given the amount of thought you are giving to such problems, I doubt you really want the approval of others.

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It's not really sharing ideas that I'm trying to do. My interaction with incompetents is solely for the reason of having interaction. There's no knowledge to gain from them, no values, except my desire to be considered "cool". My mind knows that their opinion and how they judge me means nothing. However, my emotions work the opposite way, telling me to converse with anyone who'll listen, even if they are a waste of my time.

Essentially, I want to reduce my desire for social interaction in general, and save the remaining part of the desire for conversation with people that actually interest me. I wish to sit in class and not feel the need to talk to anyone just for the sake of talking. I could be doing something far more productive with my time; instead, a natural desire is pinning me to the ground, forcing me to waste my time talking when no value is to be gained.

In the second paragraph you quoted, I used "opinions" and "acceptance" interchangably, with the same meaning. That was a mistake on my part.

At this point, I think the best answer is to simply not interact anymore with those I don't want to. My emotions should eventually follow, and I'll be able to spend my time on more productive matters.

If, after a month or two, I still have the desperate urge for interaction with those who I don't wish to associate myself with, I'll assess the situation again, this time with the knowledge of how I truly feel.

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I think a lot of people coming out of a church community background who finally see the flaws in the religion and leave find the most difficulty in the loss of that community. It's a powerful pull and not easy to set aside. It's hard to find a community of atheists, let alone Objectivists, and it takes a while to get to that point of not caring if you socialize or not. It's a depressing feeling to be in a room full of people and feel alone even when you know most of them and know you can't really talk to them about things because of the way you think. I've spent most of my life like that, but finally we have found a local group of Objectivists to build friendships with and it's done wonders so far.

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Even though I don't value Christianity, I still felt compelled to stand up today during church and admit that I believe in God.

Felt compelled by what? Others? What would have happened if you didn't stand? What would have others thought? Would have they assumed you were no longer a Christian? And how would they have treated you based on that assumption? Would have one hundred people turned your way and gave you deriding looks? Would people who were of value to you disown you for your disobedience?

What happens when you decide to play sports with others, but decide to invent your own rules? Do they get mad at you? What happens when you decide to enter a church, but then do not partake in the activities that are going on?

What happens when a Christian praises Jesus and holds up the Bible to a group of one hundred atheists?

I'm not sure what the situation was you were in, but sometimes it is wise to "go with the flow."

And if you ask me, when John Galt made his monumental exit from the communist crowd crammed in the bleachers, he was lucky he got out alive.

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